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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 3

View Poll Results: Do you want AV fired?
Yes, get rid of him now. 70 46.36%
Yes, but only if we get knocked out of the 1st/2nd round of the playoffs. 46 30.46%
No. 35 23.18%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-03-2013, 01:03 PM
  #1
Nuckles
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Alain Vigneault Discussion - Part 3

Unofficial Fire Alain Vigneault Thread/Unofficial Alain Vigneault Appreciation Thread

Aaaaaaand GO!


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Fire Benning. Fire Linden. Fire Desjardins. Hire competent people.

Last edited by Nuckles: 02-05-2013 at 12:25 AM.
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02-03-2013, 03:47 PM
  #2
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02-03-2013, 04:04 PM
  #3
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What? He's still here? Can't get rid of the guy.


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02-03-2013, 04:24 PM
  #4
freakydave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoast
News flash - 29 teams fail to win the Stanley cup every year. It's by far the hardest championship in professional sports to win. No team can be EXPECTED to win the Stanley cup. Some teams have little chance, others are better positioned, but to win the cup usually takes a lot of things happening right. You have to be reasonably free of injuries, have good goal tending and generally, have some luck in your match ups.

Why do you replace a coach?

Under performing - clearly not the case based on his record.
Coach has lost the respect / attention of the players. Clearly not the case.
Change in front office - GM wants "his guy" - GMMG has his chance to change and decided to stay with AV.
Coach does something atrocious that tarnishes the image and reputation of the team. Clearly not the case.

Firing AV would be a colossal mistake. He's the winning-est, and IMO the best head coach the team has ever had. He's been able to implement both offensive and defensive systems, he's developed young players, he's been able to motivate and retain the respect of veterans, he's dealt the "problem" players, and he's won, and won, and won.
Wow only the one team can win each season really are you sure cause I thought the 4 semi finalists shared the cup--thanks man that was real head scratcher.
They should fire the coach because it's a very talented team that has made the playoffs many times & has failed to win the cup.That is the objective right?
I know for some fans making the playoffs year after year is all it's really about & even if they fired AV & brought in a new coach who failed to make playoffs 2 to 8 times some fans would still be in here saying firing the new coach was a mistake he was a victim of injuries to core players or some other nonsense.I am sure you know what all the excuses.

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02-03-2013, 04:37 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by MW
AV should be magically making Dale Weise score at a strong 2nd line level?
Thanks for completely missing my point-although I am quite certain you did it on purpose-
I was not saying good coaching would magically create more offence but the fact that many games have gone to a shootout despite being offencively challenged demonstrates that AV owes alot of his success to the goaltending as opposed to what a great coach he is.I am not saying that he hasn't been a good coach in vancouver.He has simply been here too long.

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02-03-2013, 08:51 PM
  #6
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So according to the HFBoards understanding of El Viño's strategy, if he were the coach of the Baltimore Ravens, would he now be instructing them to punt on every first down?

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Old
02-03-2013, 10:03 PM
  #7
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av is a very good coach, i hope he stays for a long time, wins lots of cups

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02-03-2013, 10:08 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
av is a very good coach, i hope he stays for a long time, wins lots of cups
Let's start with winning one.

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02-03-2013, 10:20 PM
  #9
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id like to win lots of them, thanks.

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Old
02-04-2013, 12:13 AM
  #10
Hutton
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He's already in Lindy Ruff territory.

Overextended stay.

This will be obvious if we were to fail in the playoffs again

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02-04-2013, 12:17 AM
  #11
Lonny Bohonos
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Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
He's already in Lindy Ruff territory.

Overextended stay.

This will be obvious if we were to fail in the playoffs again
Buffalo has bigger issues than their coach.

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02-04-2013, 12:20 AM
  #12
Hutton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Buffalo has bigger issues than their coach.
So why ignore one of their biggest issues

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02-04-2013, 12:26 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
So why ignore one of their biggest issues
I dont think Ruff is one of their biggest issues. Replace him with whoever you want and you will still get the same results with that team.

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02-04-2013, 12:28 AM
  #14
Hutton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
I dont think Ruff is one of their biggest issues. Replace him with whoever you want and you will still get the same results with that team.
Short term yes, but at least there will be hope for the future

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02-04-2013, 12:31 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
Short term yes, but at least there will be hope for the future

Actually its the opposite. Coaching changes may lead to short term improvements. Long term not so much.

Hope will come with building a quality team. Would you prefer to build a team around their top players?

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02-04-2013, 12:59 AM
  #16
Hutton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Actually its the opposite. Coaching changes may lead to short term improvements. Long term not so much.
debatable, it's hard to predict the future especially if they fire a coach that has been with the team for 15 years, that's a pretty big step

Quote:
Hope will come with building a quality team. Would you prefer to build a team around their top players?
I don't know what you're saying here. Completely unrelated unless you're suggesting that there won't be an injection of optimism with a new coach after 15 years of Ruff

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02-04-2013, 01:11 AM
  #17
Lonny Bohonos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
debatable, it's hard to predict the future especially if they fire a coach that has been with the team for 15 years, that's a pretty big step



I don't know what you're saying here. Completely unrelated unless you're suggesting that there won't be an injection of optimism with a new coach after 15 years of Ruff
All studies ive come across on coaching changes show very little improvement if any. What matters most is the team.

Which is my next point. Sabres will improve when there personnel improve. Dont know what you mean by "injection of optimism"? Does that have something to do with players winning the games?

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02-04-2013, 01:26 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
All studies ive come across on coaching changes show very little improvement if any. What matters most is the team.

Which is my next point. Sabres will improve when there personnel improve. Dont know what you mean by "injection of optimism"? Does that have something to do with players winning the games?
It's not all about winning games, at some point they will write of this season. It's more about all the young guys on that roster. We've seen how Myers have regressed and it does not bode well for that to continue.

Coaching is pretty instrumental on player development, thankfully AV is not too shabby at that

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02-04-2013, 01:42 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
It's not all about winning games, at some point they will write of this season. It's more about all the young guys on that roster. We've seen how Myers have regressed and it does not bode well for that to continue.

Coaching is pretty instrumental on player development, thankfully AV is not too shabby at that
Thats what the AHL is for. Maybe a younger team like the Oil will want to focus on player development more at the NHL level. But Buffalo is not full of rookies.

Myers is probably more a victim of his own success. Great rookie season and not bad enough to sit in the AHL for a few years to develop. Buffalo is not bringing in a coach to babysit Myers.

Myers wont be the first nor the last player to come out big only to struggle later on.

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02-04-2013, 12:04 PM
  #20
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Wow only the one team can win each season really are you sure cause I thought the 4 semi finalists shared the cup--thanks man that was real head scratcher.
They should fire the coach because it's a very talented team that has made the playoffs many times & has failed to win the cup.That is the objective right?
I know for some fans making the playoffs year after year is all it's really about & even if they fired AV & brought in a new coach who failed to make playoffs 2 to 8 times some fans would still be in here saying firing the new coach was a mistake he was a victim of injuries to core players or some other nonsense.I am sure you know what all the excuses.
You don't need excuses for not winning the cup. No team should EXPECT to win the cup and if they fall short start making silly rash moves. It's the hardest championship in professional sports to win. Great teams fall short of winning the cup every year. Since the last lockout, only the Detroit Red Wings have won the Stanley Cup and the President's trophy in the same year - and they also were eliminated in the first round after winning the President's Trophy in 2005.

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02-04-2013, 01:25 PM
  #21
freakydave
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
You don't need excuses for not winning the cup. No team should EXPECT to win the cup and if they fall short start making silly rash moves. It's the hardest championship in professional sports to win. Great teams fall short of winning the cup every year. Since the last lockout, only the Detroit Red Wings have won the Stanley Cup and the President's trophy in the same year - and they also were eliminated in the first round after winning the President's Trophy in 2005.
Yeah --silly & rash --sorry but for most who would prefer AV gone it's years in the making.

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02-04-2013, 01:34 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
All studies ive come across on coaching changes show very little improvement if any. What matters most is the team.

Which is my next point. Sabres will improve when there personnel improve. Dont know what you mean by "injection of optimism"? Does that have something to do with players winning the games?
Not true necessarily. Coaching changes don't have an immediate impact, but they can the following season. I think there's also plenty of anecdotal evidence that at a certain point, sometimes a team just needs a new voice.

It is fairly surprising that not a single coach has won a cup if he doesn't win it in the first three years he's with a team.

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02-04-2013, 01:36 PM
  #23
Fat Tony
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I would suggest that silly and rash decisions have already been made in the trade department. In hindsight, the Kassian trade is looking more even than I imagined it would be and the Ballard trade may be salvageable but I thought they were overreactions at the time they occurred.

The window for a rash decision on AV passed a long time ago.

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02-04-2013, 01:39 PM
  #24
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It is fairly surprising that not a single coach has won a cup if he doesn't win it in the first three years he's with a team.
That's not true. Off the top of my head I know that Al Arbour did it.

EDIT: Also, there is a huge survivorship bias issue with that stat, even if it were true. Coaches that don't win the Cup usually don't last more than a handful of seasons. Coaches that win the Cup early in their career are much more likely to stay on long term with a team. You're working with a very skewed sample.


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02-04-2013, 01:44 PM
  #25
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Not true necessarily. Coaching changes don't have an immediate impact, but they can the following season. I think there's also plenty of anecdotal evidence that at a certain point, sometimes a team just needs a new voice.

It is fairly surprising that not a single coach has won a cup if he doesn't win it in the first three years he's with a team.
A change of voice is fine - if there is evidence of the players tuning out the coach or not buying into his system. A change of voice is also needed when the coaches communication style is highly charged or emotional - yellers like Crawford or manipulators like Keenan.

But with the Canucks, all of the evidence is the opposite. The team is extremely tight and the players and coaching staff are committed to the system. AV also doesn't depend on emotional tactics or mind games to motivate his players. These tactics have a certain shelf life, but AV is not that type of coach.

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