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Old
02-03-2013, 01:19 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Stepan had 50 ****ing points last year, and 6 in 8 this year while playing very solid the past few games...and he's a third liner?!
It's not worth it. Stepan has already been named the new Dubinsky/Del Zotto. He could score 5 goals while saving kittens and puppies from a burning building and simultaneously cure cancer--the crowd here that HAS to hate someone on our own team would find SOMETHING to ***** about.

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02-03-2013, 01:36 PM
  #477
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Hags, Stepan and Pyatt all three also really bought into the system and held great positions to pin people on the forecheck or catch people on the backcheck with speed. Stepan deserve cred for that for sure.

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02-03-2013, 03:09 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Stepan has outscored Arty and played more consistently than him for their careers so far...outscoring him this year even. And I like Arty a lot!
Same here - Artem was my favorite Ranger but I understand how the organization projected Stepan's production as more valuable than Anisimov' versatility.

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02-03-2013, 03:40 PM
  #479
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I can't say that I have good track of all that has been posted on Stepan, but from my point of view its definitely legit to followStepan's development over the coming seasons and especially from a season to season perspective. And hence we should be talking about him early this season. And early next season.

Stepan has some outstanding abilities -- but overall he is not a good 2nd line center yet. When he was 20 y/o, I definitely expected him to be one this season. I expected him to have improved his jump a bit, to be able to cover more ice. That usually comes with natrual growth for a player who is 20 y/o. To be a bigger factor on a shift by shift basis than he has been so far.

But while he has rounded off his game, is better defensively and so forth, his jump hasn't improved much if any since his rookie year. That just worries me. It would definitely have worried me as much if we were 6-0-0. If it was one thing I, and many with me, took away from the PO's last season -- it was that Stepan at the level he is playing right now does not cut it as a 2nd line center on a CONTENDER. He must improve.
Even during a normal start to the season (with a camp and preseason games) I wouldn't make a judgement about a player - too small of a sample. This year it is even more prudent to hold on from making any generalized observations until after around 10 - 15 games.

Second point about his value on a contender - again pretty arguable observation when Stepan's performance as 21 y/o kept the team in the running for the top spot in the East and overall standings while Richards was adopting to the new team and teammates. Got to accept ups and downs while a player continues his development and in the way the Rangers are put together - Stepan is a completely adequate 2C.

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02-03-2013, 10:57 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Stepan has outscored Arty and played more consistently than him for their careers so far...outscoring him this year even. And I like Arty a lot!
Points aren't everything but I could be wrong about who turns out better overall. Still points alone are brought up way too often and I feel they don't do it justice

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02-04-2013, 01:01 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
Standard soapbox post

It's more about people overvaluing an asset than it is that "a process that we don't understand".

Ideally, he's a 3rd line center (on a championship team).
This x10. Ranger fans overvalue Stepan just like fans of other teams overvalue their self drafted players. I've been saying the bolded all along. I've also said however that if Stepan VERY consistently plays as he did last night against TB then and only then should he be considered an undisputed 2C. I don't care if he put up 80 points last year playing with Gaborik, he does not have the offensive tools YET to be an elite 2C (or even a very good one). He's either a prototype perfect 3C or a below average 2C. I hope this year he can play like a legitimate 2C and sustain some offense in the top 6

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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
Points aren't everything but I could be wrong about who turns out better overall. Still points alone are brought up way too often and I feel they don't do it justice
No. This is HFboards. Stats are the only thing that count. Secondary assists get extra recognition And I heard the Rangers don't use any scouts, they just go to NHL.com when evaluating player talent.

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02-04-2013, 07:26 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
No. This is HFboards. Stats are the only thing that count. Secondary assists get extra recognition And I heard the Rangers don't use any scouts, they just go to NHL.com when evaluating player talent.
If that's the case more teams should do that because they have had a lot of success.

Did you not just try and use stats to support your argument? Kind of ironic.

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02-04-2013, 08:42 AM
  #483
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It's not worth it. Stepan has already been named the new Dubinsky/Del Zotto. He could score 5 goals while saving kittens and puppies from a burning building and simultaneously cure cancer--the crowd here that HAS to hate someone on our own team would find SOMETHING to ***** about.
Hyperbole much?

Derek Stepan was not playing well and, considering how important he is to this team, it needed to be called out and is worthy of discussion. Why let a couple of loonies who think he should be traded control the discourse?

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02-04-2013, 09:13 AM
  #484
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before the injury Callahan wasn't doing much, his offense was horrendous and his defense play wasn't like it was last year, but because he is capt cally he gets a free ride.

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02-04-2013, 09:17 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
This x10. Ranger fans overvalue Stepan just like fans of other teams overvalue their self drafted players. I've been saying the bolded all along. I've also said however that if Stepan VERY consistently plays as he did last night against TB then and only then should he be considered an undisputed 2C. I don't care if he put up 80 points last year playing with Gaborik, he does not have the offensive tools YET to be an elite 2C (or even a very good one). He's either a prototype perfect 3C or a below average 2C. I hope this year he can play like a legitimate 2C and sustain some offense in the top 6



No. This is HFboards. Stats are the only thing that count. Secondary assists get extra recognition And I heard the Rangers don't use any scouts, they just go to NHL.com when evaluating player talent.
So you're saying if he put up 80 points he wouldn't be a first line center because it doesn't "look" like he's playing like one?

So stats don't matter...but what you see does?

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02-04-2013, 10:44 AM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
So you're saying if he put up 80 points he wouldn't be a first line center because it doesn't "look" like he's playing like one?

So stats don't matter...but what you see does?
That's what this thread is all about. Pretty much the exact plot of Moneyball.

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02-04-2013, 11:04 AM
  #487
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Great to see Stepan get a goal (and Hagelin as well). It's encouraging to see him put himself in so many goal scoring positions despite obviously being snake bitten. We need secondary scoring in a major way. I really like Stepan's knack of getting to loose pucks around the goal and getting free for scoring chances despite obviously not being a good skater. It is definitely a sign of his hockey sense, which I think is his best trait as a player.

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02-04-2013, 11:16 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I can't say that I have good track of all that has been posted on Stepan, but from my point of view its definitely legit to follow Stepan's development over the coming seasons and especially from a season to season perspective. And hence we should be talking about him early this season. And early next season.

Stepan has some outstanding abilities -- but overall he is not a good 2nd line center yet. When he was 20 y/o, I definitely expected him to be one this season. I expected him to have improved his jump a bit, to be able to cover more ice. That usually comes with natrual growth for a player who is 20 y/o. To be a bigger factor on a shift by shift basis than he has been so far.

But while he has rounded off his game, is better defensively and so forth, his jump hasn't improved much if any since his rookie year. That just worries me. It would definitely have worried me as much if we were 6-0-0. If it was one thing I, and many with me, took away from the PO's last season -- it was that Stepan at the level he is playing right now does not cut it as a 2nd line center on a CONTENDER. He must improve.
Yeah, I agree with your thoughts about Stepan. While I am happy with Stepan's production this far I thought he'd have improved his skating a bit more. What concerns me the most about Stepan is that it seems his lack of foot speed prevents him from creating space and he struggles to find the time to create offence like he did when he was younger. It is a testament to his hockey IQ that he has adjusted and changed his game by playing the body more and helped to grind, but his lack of mobility really hampers his playmaking skills. He's also so slow on the forecheck it is frustrating at times.

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02-04-2013, 11:17 AM
  #489
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I'm not as high on Stepan as some are , however for what he costs us and what we get from him , his value is solid at this point . His skating eventually might cause him to be a 3rd line Center in a few years or sooner as talent develops for us . I would sooner have Stepan than Anismov and was happy things went down like they did with Columbus . So far this year his play is on par with the rest of the teams performance in the first 2 weeks . I suspect everybody will improve after a couple of games against the Isles and the Devils ...that will tell the tale of just where this team stands with the current roster .

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02-04-2013, 11:20 AM
  #490
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This "Stepan is a 3rd line center on a Championship team" talking point keeps getting batted around, yet I still haven't heard one team that has a 3rd line center better than Stepan. Does that mean the Stanley Cup won't be awarded this season?

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02-04-2013, 11:21 AM
  #491
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I'm not as high on Stepan as some are , however for what he costs us and what we get from him , his value is solid at this point . His skating eventually might cause him to be a 3rd line Center in a few years or sooner as talent develops for us . I would sooner have Stepan than Anismov and was happy things went down like they did with Columbus . So far this year his play is on par with the rest of the teams performance in the first 2 weeks . I suspect everybody will improve after a couple of games against the Isles and the Devils ...that will tell the tale of just where this team stands with the current roster .
Just curious, because I see this type of attitude being portrayed alot. But, do you think Stepan will get moved down to 3rd line duties because someone better will come along and simply push him down the lineup? And by saying that, are you just totally ignoring what the role of 3rd line center entails for this team?

I ask this because its quite clear that Torts like having a 3rd line checking unit that matches against the oppositions top lines. Im curious as to how Stepan and his "poor skating" would even remotely excel in that role.

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02-04-2013, 11:23 AM
  #492
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
This "Stepan is a 3rd line center on a Championship team" talking point keeps getting batted around, yet I still haven't heard one team that has a 3rd line center better than Stepan. Does that mean the Stanley Cup won't be awarded this season?
We're on the same page here. Defensively, Richards/J. Jokinen/Stepan down the middle is a trainwreck. I dont know how anyone can advocate it unless they're completely forgetting about defense.

But theres a simple answer - Brian Boyle as the 2nd line center.

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02-04-2013, 11:44 AM
  #493
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
If that's the case more teams should do that because they have had a lot of success.

Did you not just try and use stats to support your argument? Kind of ironic.
In another thread I used stats as a mock due to the fact that everyone was throwing the stats page over at NHL.com at me so I responded. Wasn't really a good argument was it. Stats-based arguments usually never are, but they're easy so I suspect that's why they're used so often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
So you're saying if he put up 80 points he wouldn't be a first line center because it doesn't "look" like he's playing like one?

So stats don't matter...but what you see does?
Obviously I'm exaggerating about him putting up 80 points, but yes. There is a reason scouts exists in hockey and all other professional sports

Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
This "Stepan is a 3rd line center on a Championship team" talking point keeps getting batted around, yet I still haven't heard one team that has a 3rd line center better than Stepan. Does that mean the Stanley Cup won't be awarded this season?


You're missing the point some are trying to make. It's not that teams have a better 3C than us. It's that they have an overwhelmingly better 2C than us. Here's some examples since you requested:

TB
PIT
CAR
BOS
NJ

Just to name a few from our Conference/Division

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
We're on the same page here. Defensively, Richards/J. Jokinen/Stepan down the middle is a trainwreck. I dont know how anyone can advocate it unless they're completely forgetting about defense.

But theres a simple answer - Brian Boyle as the 2nd line center.
By all accounts J. Jokinen has proven he can be defensively sound. He's centering Carolina's 3rd line right now. I highly doubt that would be the case if he was a defensive trainwreck. Let's also not forget that we have one of the best top 4 D in the league and a 2012 Vezina winner between the pipes. This notion that our top 2 forward lines have to be elite defensively is unfounded and our offense will continue to struggle with this mindset


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02-04-2013, 11:44 AM
  #494
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
This "Stepan is a 3rd line center on a Championship team" talking point keeps getting batted around, yet I still haven't heard one team that has a 3rd line center better than Stepan. Does that mean the Stanley Cup won't be awarded this season?
I don't think it's necessary for Stepan to be a third line center, but I think there is some merit to question whether or not he is a good enough second line center for a team of our ambitions. Hopefully he keeps developing and we no longer have to have this discussion though.

In regards to your question, Stepan would without a doubt be one of the premier third line centers in the league. In my opinion you could make arguments for Rich Peverley (.73 ppg last year) and Ryan O'Reilly (outscored Stepan while playing in a shutdown role, leading the league in takeaways and being one of the better defensive forwards in the league despite playing in a poor team). It can be hard to compare 3rd liners to 2nd liners because Stepan gets more playing time in offensive situations (power play, offensive zone starts) and 3rd liners stats suffer a bit because they play a defensive role. Whatever the case though Stepan would be one of the premier 3rd liners in the league.

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02-04-2013, 11:45 AM
  #495
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Just curious, because I see this type of attitude being portrayed alot. But, do you think Stepan will get moved down to 3rd line duties because someone better will come along and simply push him down the lineup? And by saying that, are you just totally ignoring what the role of 3rd line center entails for this team?

I ask this because its quite clear that Torts like having a 3rd line checking unit that matches against the oppositions top lines. Im curious as to how Stepan and his "poor skating" would even remotely excel in that role.
Chances are by then that Torts won't be in the picture and also a good chance that neither will Stepan if we can develop some speedier middlemen along the way .

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02-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
QUOTE=-31-;59021797]This "Stepan is a 3rd line center on a Championship team" talking point keeps getting batted around, yet I still haven't heard one team that has a 3rd line center better than Stepan. Does that mean the Stanley Cup won't be awarded this season?
You're missing the point some are trying to make. It's not that teams have a better 3C than us. It's that they have an overwhelmingly better 2C than us. Here's some examples since you requested:

TB
PIT
CAR
BOS[/QUOTE]

Anyone else? Because those teams have some of the best 1-2 centers in the entire league. Maybe SJ and LA.

However, I would take the Rangers defense over any of those teams except MAYBE Boston. Maybe.

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02-04-2013, 12:28 PM
  #497
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Obviously I'm exaggerating about him putting up 80 points, but yes. There is a reason scouts exists in hockey and all other professional sports
Yeah, so that guys like Jeff Francoeur can suck ass, but because they look and act like baseball players, scouts keep them in a high regard.

Stepan historically has not looked nearly as bad as you are trying to make it sound like, and the points back that up. You're wrong. Listening 5 teams with more than one elite center (except maybe Boston, but in which your beloved scouts have said Stepan has Patrice Bergeron potential anyway) doesn't change the fact Stepan has established himself as a 2C. Just because Evgeni Malkin and Vinny Lecavalier are technically second line centers doesn't mean they wouldn't be first liners elsewhere.

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02-05-2013, 12:21 AM
  #498
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Yeah, so that guys like Jeff Francoeur can suck ass, but because they look and act like baseball players, scouts keep them in a high regard.
Not sure the point you're trying to make. The same scouts you're trying to discredit have essentially built this Rangers team minus the top line. Our Vezina winning goalie was a 7th rounder. I guess they suck though?


Quote:
Stepan historically has not looked nearly as bad as you are trying to make it sound like, and the points back that up. You're wrong. Listening 5 teams with more than one elite center (except maybe Boston, but in which your beloved scouts have said Stepan has Patrice Bergeron potential anyway) doesn't change the fact Stepan has established himself as a 2C.
Potential doesn't put the puck in the net. I'm not suggesting Stepan will never be an elite 2C in his career. I'm suggesting his stats are misleading and that he's not the 2C this team needs at the moment. Unless, like I said a thousand times, he decides to show up like he did against TB an offensive upgrade at 2C would do this team a world of good.

Quote:
Just because Evgeni Malkin and Vinny Lecavalier are technically second line centers doesn't mean they wouldn't be first liners elsewhere.
No doubt. But the fact remains they are second line centers because their teams are that good up front. I would like to see our team be ALMOST as good up front (shocker, I know..). I guess our strategy should just be to pray we avoid TB BOS and PIT in a 7 game series. It worked last year but we're not getting that lucky this year

I say roll the team as is for now with the Rupp trade. Let them build chemistry when Callahan gets back. See how Kreider looks. If we still look offensively anemic Slats needs to do something with the top 6 at the deadline. See potential cheap options: J.Jokinen, N.Antropov, etc.

I still don't get why people are getting butt hurt over moving Stepan to the 3rd line. This team would be ridiculously deep and even better with Stepan on the 3rd line

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02-05-2013, 12:43 AM
  #499
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Personally, I won't be happy until we've got Gretzky - Lemieux - Messier - Francis down the middle. I mean, look at some of the other center depth we're going to have to compete against in this league!

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02-05-2013, 10:21 AM
  #500
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Personally, I won't be happy until we've got Gretzky - Lemieux - Messier - Francis down the middle. I mean, look at some of the other center depth we're going to have to compete against in this league!
Yes.. because asking for an upgrade to Stepan is asking for 4 hall of fame gamebreakers to man all 4 Center positions

Excuse me for not being satisified with an ECF exit in 6 games. The Rangers are relying too heavily on young, undeveloped players in pivotal spots on the roster (Stepan, Kreider, Hagelin). Here's to praying it pays off since that seems to be the strategy here

I see an elite top 6 on all the teams that we're going to have to go through this year to get where we want to be. It's not really that shocking to try and match if a cheap, offensive minded rental is to be had. We've gotten smoked twice by PIT so far and looked brutal against them towards the end of last season.. don't see how anyone can argue we don't need a bit more firepower with them in the division and some other teams in the conference


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