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Boston Bruins v. Buffalo Sabres - 1/31/13 - Part III

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Old
02-03-2013, 12:55 PM
  #226
Lordstanley
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Originally Posted by KrazyLegs View Post
This just in. Sabres are still frauds.

Montreal bent them over and rogered them roundly from behind.
So true ! I think the Frauds will need the refs a little more the next game in Buffalo , to keep it close. I think the next game with Montreal in Boston will be a good night .

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02-03-2013, 05:05 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
You went back for a single season. Again, lots of players have moved to new teams. Are you really trying to argue the point that players like Crosby, Malkin, Nash, Graborik, Richards don't have higher offensive upside than the B's top six over their careers? Seriously? I mean, even Tampa Bay has Stamkos, St. Louis, and Vinny. Those guys have more offensive upside too. It doesn't mean they're a better team, it's just a hard fact. The most consistent offensive forward for the B's is Horton, and he's not anywhere near the guys I mentioned in terms of his ceiling.
Wow you're pretty worked up over this.

No, I'm saying collectively, the Pens, Rags etc. don't produce more than the B's top 6. Individually obviously they are better players, but they have a weaker supporting cast. (Which by the way is in direct contradiction to your argument that they are less likely to be impacted by a key injury).

Your whole argument is that the B's need a healthy and high producing bottom 6 because their top 6 can't compete offensively with the other contenders. And it's simply false, and while you keep saying "hard fact" over and over, you have yet to provide a single one of them (or at least a relevant one). If you were to say the B's top3 or top 2 or hell even top 1 I'd agree, but that has nothing to do with what your argument.

So I guess, no I don't think Horton is better than Crosby, Malkin, Nash, Gaborik, Richards blah blah blah ... and I've never suggested otherwise.

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02-03-2013, 06:15 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by DoubleAAAA View Post
Wow you're pretty worked up over this.

No, I'm saying collectively, the Pens, Rags etc. don't produce more than the B's top 6. Individually obviously they are better players, but they have a weaker supporting cast. (Which by the way is in direct contradiction to your argument that they are less likely to be impacted by a key injury).

Your whole argument is that the B's need a healthy and high producing bottom 6 because their top 6 can't compete offensively with the other contenders. And it's simply false, and while you keep saying "hard fact" over and over, you have yet to provide a single one of them (or at least a relevant one). If you were to say the B's top3 or top 2 or hell even top 1 I'd agree, but that has nothing to do with what your argument.

So I guess, no I don't think Horton is better than Crosby, Malkin, Nash, Gaborik, Richards blah blah blah ... and I've never suggested otherwise.
Last year's playoffs would disagree with you.

You keep wanting to change the argument and it's silly. Of course collectively the B's top six can compete. They're built to do that. I've never disagreed with that. What I've said over and over, which you don't want to seemingly grasp, is that the other teams have higher end offensive players. If the B's depth is compromised, they don't have a high end talent to bridge that gap. Simple as that. Again though, feel free to try and shift the discussion to something I'm not saying.

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02-03-2013, 07:36 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Last year's playoffs would disagree with you.

You keep wanting to change the argument and it's silly. Of course collectively the B's top six can compete. They're built to do that. I've never disagreed with that. What I've said over and over, which you don't want to seemingly grasp, is that the other teams have higher end offensive players. If the B's depth is compromised, they don't have a high end talent to bridge that gap. Simple as that. Again though, feel free to try and shift the discussion to something I'm not saying.
To add onto your point, you have to take into consideration the system and style of game they play, which is much more conservative than other teams in the league.

The Bruins philosophy is a conservative defensive-approach, with a lot of physicallity, and winning with depth. No one player is spectacular at only one thing, but they're all very good at everything.

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02-03-2013, 08:02 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Last year's playoffs would disagree with you.

You keep wanting to change the argument and it's silly. Of course collectively the B's top six can compete. They're built to do that. I've never disagreed with that. What I've said over and over, which you don't want to seemingly grasp, is that the other teams have higher end offensive players. If the B's depth is compromised, they don't have a high end talent to bridge that gap. Simple as that. Again though, feel free to try and shift the discussion to something I'm not saying.
*Argues 82 game sample isn't indicative, counters with 7 game sample where other team outscored team by 1 goal*

I'm not changing the argument at all, you asked me to compare the B's top 6 to other elite teams. I did that. The stats I've provided support the notion that the way the B's are built, without superstar offensive talent (which we both agree on), allows them to be as productive as "elite offensive teams" in their top 6 collectively. That production includes injuries to key offensive players, which only goes to further disprove your statement that the B's don't have the personnel to bridge the "offensive potential" gap in case of an injury.

You also realize that you started this whole discussion because of "this situation" of having injuries to Shawn Thornton and Dan Paille. Shawn Thornton .... and Danny frickin Paille.

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02-04-2013, 07:47 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by DoubleAAAA View Post
*Argues 82 game sample isn't indicative, counters with 7 game sample where other team outscored team by 1 goal*

I'm not changing the argument at all, you asked me to compare the B's top 6 to other elite teams. I did that. The stats I've provided support the notion that the way the B's are built, without superstar offensive talent (which we both agree on), allows them to be as productive as "elite offensive teams" in their top 6 collectively. That production includes injuries to key offensive players, which only goes to further disprove your statement that the B's don't have the personnel to bridge the "offensive potential" gap in case of an injury.

You also realize that you started this whole discussion because of "this situation" of having injuries to Shawn Thornton and Dan Paille. Shawn Thornton .... and Danny frickin Paille.
But you are changing it because you want to continually speak about the top 6 as a collective, while I've repeatedly said the Bruin's top 6 players don't have the high end individually as some of the other top team's individuals in their conference. It's got nothing to do with systems, or with groups of players. The B's top 6 is supported by their depth and the depth of the bottom 6. If guys start getting hurt, that depth is compromised, therefore they're not as effective. It's a pretty simple concept. If they had a true go to guy instead of a group of all really good players, the ability to weather injuries would be lessened. Again, it's not a hard concept to understand if you're being objective.

In terms of bottom 6 guys getting hurt the impact, while not as great as say a Horton getting hurt like last year, still hurts their depth. Now you've got a bottom 6 with basically 3 AHL players, so why is it so hard to admit that?

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02-04-2013, 07:51 AM
  #232
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I don't think the Sabres are any tougher as a team, they just have a giant clown to hide behind. 7 points and 11th place aren't very scary to me

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02-04-2013, 07:52 AM
  #233
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Why are we still talking about this game?

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02-04-2013, 07:54 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
But you are changing it because you want to continually speak about the top 6 as a collective, while I've repeatedly said the Bruin's top 6 players don't have the high end individually as some of the other top team's individuals in their conference. It's got nothing to do with systems, or with groups of players. The B's top 6 is supported by their depth and the depth of the bottom 6. If guys start getting hurt, that depth is compromised, therefore they're not as effective. It's a pretty simple concept. If they had a true go to guy instead of a group of all really good players, the ability to weather injuries would be lessened. Again, it's not a hard concept to understand if you're being objective.

In terms of bottom 6 guys getting hurt the impact, while not as great as say a Horton getting hurt like last year, still hurts their depth. Now you've got a bottom 6 with basically 3 AHL players, so why is it so hard to admit that?
This is the most @ss backwards argument I've ever heard, you're arguing that depth vs concentrated talent has a negative impact on ability to overcome injuries. You're literally arguing against the definition of depth.

So I suppose if your argument is that the B's suffer a multitude of injuries to top players while all other teams in the league are entirely exempt from injuries to anyone of significance ... then yes, they're at a disadvantage

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02-04-2013, 07:55 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
So if Scott had or has no impact....why did Thornton feel the need to fight him?

Everybody knows Scott can't play. So why even bother?
Because Thornton didn't want him to goad Lucic or Chara into a fight so he did his job by trying to neuter him. He ended up with a brain injury because he's the best the Bruins had to offer, and now the Sabres will surely take advantage of this next week in Buffalo and in the following games. Last thing we need to see is the Bruins acting like Sedin and pretending they don't have to fight.

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02-04-2013, 08:01 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by DoubleAAAA View Post
This is the most @ss backwards argument I've ever heard, you're arguing that depth vs concentrated talent has a negative impact on ability to overcome injuries. You're literally arguing against the definition of depth.

So I suppose if your argument is that the B's suffer a multitude of injuries to top players while all other teams in the league are entirely exempt from injuries to anyone of significance ... then yes, they're at a disadvantage
You completely miss the point

The point has been all along that there isn't really any depth. Otherwise one injury like they had last year wouldn't have sank them. Shocker, I know. It's become this mantra that people dogmatically repeat, but at the end of the day, it's just not true. Their 3rd and 4th line players are really 3rd and 4th line players. When you need to slot them up, they don't look particularly effective.


Last edited by TP: 02-04-2013 at 08:02 AM. Reason: mod
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02-04-2013, 08:16 AM
  #237
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You completely miss the point

The point has been all along that there isn't really any depth. Otherwise one injury like they had last year wouldn't have sank them. Shocker, I know. It's become this mantra that people dogmatically repeat, but at the end of the day, it's just not true. Their 3rd and 4th line players are really 3rd and 4th line players. When you need to slot them up, they don't look particularly effective.
Yet including those injuries last year, those top 6 forwards produced more offensively than all but 2 teams.

The depth isn't a fallacy despite what you choose to believe, and the Bruins are in fact well equipped to deal with key injuries.

Let me pose you this question, what's the bigger drop off ... Horton to Peverley or Crosby to Brandon Sutter or Nash to Taylor Pyatt.

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02-04-2013, 08:24 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by DoubleAAAA View Post
Yet including those injuries last year, those top 6 forwards produced more offensively than all but 2 teams.

The depth isn't a fallacy despite what you choose to believe, and the Bruins are in fact well equipped to deal with key injuries.

Let me pose you this question, what's the bigger drop off ... Horton to Peverley or Crosby to Brandon Sutter or Nash to Taylor Pyatt.
Then why were they a mediocre slightly better then 500 team during the regular season after Horton went out? Why did they have 4 play-off games where they only scored 1 goal. Nobody could pick up the slack? Not enough scorers?

This team, when healthy has top 3-4 top nine forwards in the game. When you are forced to move Peverley up, the 3rd line becomes very ineffective scoring wise .. Kelly had 15 goals before Horton's injury.

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02-04-2013, 08:25 AM
  #239
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Yet including those injuries last year, those top 6 forwards produced more offensively than all but 2 teams.

The depth isn't a fallacy despite what you choose to believe, and the Bruins are in fact well equipped to deal with key injuries.

Let me pose you this question, what's the bigger drop off ... Horton to Peverley or Crosby to Brandon Sutter or Nash to Taylor Pyatt.
Solid logic there. Of course the drop off from a guy who is one of the best players in the league to a guy like Sutter is going to be bigger since the ceiling for Crosby is far higher than what Horton's is. That's never been the argument. You even admitted it a few posts back, FFS. Guess what? You could switch out Peverly for Sutter in that argument and the drop off would still be ridiculously bad.

I'll cut to the chase and make it simple for you. If you want to believe in this quantity over quality thing, go right ahead. I certainly am not trying to convince you to not do so. I personally just don't buy that it's really all that it's made out to be here. Hopefully Marchand isn't too banged up, and Paille comes back next game, because that much vaunted depth is looking rather thin right now, IMO.

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02-04-2013, 08:36 AM
  #240
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Because Thornton didn't want him to goad Lucic or Chara into a fight so he did his job by trying to neuter him. He ended up with a brain injury because he's the best the Bruins had to offer, and now the Sabres will surely take advantage of this next week in Buffalo and in the following games. Last thing we need to see is the Bruins acting like Sedin and pretending they don't have to fight.
If you think the Bruins are going to lie down now vs Sabres because one player lost a fight you are fooling yourself.And just for the record,Thornton is not even toughest Bruins have in my opinion.

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02-04-2013, 08:37 AM
  #241
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Then why were they a mediocre slightly better then 500 team during the regular season after Horton went out? Why did they have 4 play-off games where they only scored 1 goal. Nobody could pick up the slack? Not enough scorers?

This team, when healthy has top 3-4 top nine forwards in the game. When you are forced to move Peverley up, the 3rd line becomes very ineffective scoring wise .. Kelly had 15 goals before Horton's injury.
Exactly.

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02-04-2013, 08:40 AM
  #242
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Then why were they a mediocre slightly better then 500 team during the regular season after Horton went out? Why did they have 4 play-off games where they only scored 1 goal. Nobody could pick up the slack? Not enough scorers?

This team, when healthy has top 3-4 top nine forwards in the game. When you are forced to move Peverley up, the 3rd line becomes very ineffective scoring wise .. Kelly had 15 goals before Horton's injury.
Because they played a team in full on turtle mode, with a hot goalie? Because occasionally the other team has something to do with the outcome of the game? Because sometimes a team just plays like garbage even when they have a full contingent of players (see 3-7 start to the season). Why did Washington have trouble scoring goals when they would clearly have more "offensive upside" in their top 6 with Ovechkin/Backstrom/Semin?

The Bruins have been in the top 5 in goals for league wide with the current model 3 of the last 4 years. Each year having to deal with injuries to key offensive players, yet they continue to perform offensively.

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02-04-2013, 08:41 AM
  #243
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Then why were they a mediocre slightly better then 500 team during the regular season after Horton went out? Why did they have 4 play-off games where they only scored 1 goal. Nobody could pick up the slack? Not enough scorers?

This team, when healthy has top 3-4 top nine forwards in the game. When you are forced to move Peverley up, the 3rd line becomes very ineffective scoring wise .. Kelly had 15 goals before Horton's injury.
He was hurt at that time too. Let's not forget that. There was a lot more going on with the team then Horton being hurt. Wouldn't you say?

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02-04-2013, 08:42 AM
  #244
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I don't think the Sabres are any tougher as a team, they just have a giant clown to hide behind. 7 points and 11th place aren't very scary to me
Scott took quite a shot by Parros and went down to one knee and did not look to good- wonder if he is 7-10 days

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02-04-2013, 08:43 AM
  #245
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If you think the Bruins are going to lie down now vs Sabres because one player lost a fight you are fooling yourself.And just for the record,Thornton is not even toughest Bruins have in my opinion.
I think Lucic is far tougher than Thornton. I'd say they did lie down when when they didn't react after Scott taunted the benched, elbowed Peverley in the head and when Staffor threw a nasty elbow to Hamilton who fortunately dodged most of it.

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02-04-2013, 08:44 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Caballo Blanco View Post
Because Thornton didn't want him to goad Lucic or Chara into a fight so he did his job by trying to neuter him. He ended up with a brain injury because he's the best the Bruins had to offer, and now the Sabres will surely take advantage of this next week in Buffalo and in the following games. Last thing we need to see is the Bruins acting like Sedin and pretending they don't have to fight.
Buffalo has bigger issues to address than beating up on what some here now appear to believe to be the little weakling on the block.

There have been three games played by the two teams since Buffalo and Boston played.

- Buffalo is 0-2, including a 6-1 drubbing by Montreal.
- Boston is 1-0 and didn't show many of the AWFUL defensive lapses we saw with Buffalo.
- Boston did NOT get beat and bullied by Toronto - as many here projected... no, virtually guaranteed.
- Big John Scott lost his very next fight with G Parros.
- Parros added insult to injury by then scoring a goal -- an important goal given Buffalo lost the game 4-3.

Shawn Thornton lost a fight and so far the Bruins world has not spun off its axis and Buffalo is not the next favorite to win the SC.

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02-04-2013, 08:46 AM
  #247
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He was hurt at that time too. Let's not forget that. There was a lot more going on with the team then Horton being hurt. Wouldn't you say?
True, record wise that would hurt somewhat..would be interesting to see their record without both...But he wouldn't have been playing with Kelly regardless. He would have filled in for Nate.

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02-04-2013, 08:51 AM
  #248
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Buffalo has bigger issues to address than beating up on what some here now appear to believe to be the little weakling on the block.

There have been three games played by the two teams since Buffalo and Boston played.

- Buffalo is 0-2, including a 6-1 drubbing by Montreal.
- Boston is 1-0 and didn't show many of the AWFUL defensive lapses we saw with Buffalo.
- Boston did NOT get beat and bullied by Toronto - as many here projected... no, virtually guaranteed.
- Big John Scott lost his very next fight with G Parros.
- Parros added insult to injury by then scoring a goal -- an important goal given Buffalo lost the game 4-3.

Shawn Thornton lost a fight and so far the Bruins world has not spun off its axis and Buffalo is not the next favorite to win the SC.
you mean to tell me since the big win in Boston, the Sabres have got drubbed by Montreal and beat by imo one of the worst 5 teams in hockey Florida (injuries play a part in this) and Godzilla got taken down by an intellectual with a funky mustache

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02-04-2013, 09:07 AM
  #249
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you mean to tell me since the big win in Boston, the Sabres have got drubbed by Montreal and beat by imo one of the worst 5 teams in hockey Florida (injuries play a part in this) and Godzilla got taken down by an intellectual with a funky mustache
Amazing, isn't it?????

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02-04-2013, 09:26 AM
  #250
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you mean to tell me since the big win in Boston, the Sabres have got drubbed by Montreal and beat by imo one of the worst 5 teams in hockey Florida (injuries play a part in this) and Godzilla got taken down by an intellectual with a funky mustache
Sounds more of an indictment towards us then it does them...

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