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Old
02-04-2013, 09:40 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I think we all agree that Markov shouldn't be traded for a 2nd rounder.
And on the other hand, nobody is untouchable. For the right price, Price is available. So do we make a Price Conundrum thread?

No, because you don't look to trade these guys. If you are looking to get rid of someone, it probably means you aren't going to rip someone off for them.

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02-04-2013, 09:50 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
And on the other hand, nobody is untouchable. For the right price, Price is available. So do we make a Price Conundrum thread?

No, because you don't look to trade these guys. If you are looking to get rid of someone, it probably means you aren't going to rip someone off for them.
No one is talking about getting rid of Markov. As good as Markov is, he isn't a franchise player. He is a star with us, but Carey is a franchise player. Big difference between the two imo. Markov at the deadline nets you at least 1-2 good assets. If you are not going for the cup this or next season then moving Markov would make sense from a asset point of view.


I remember a time not long ago where people were saying having Markov and his salary was brutal because he was always hurt. There are people out there who would have got rid of him and his salary right there and then. Now that he is back their tune has changed. Buy Low / Sell High has a lot more potential for the team as a whole when we are making that cup run, than Markov helping us to a cup over the next 2 seasons

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02-04-2013, 10:07 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by disturbedraven View Post
No one is talking about getting rid of Markov. As good as Markov is, he isn't a franchise player. He is a star with us, but Carey is a franchise player. Big difference between the two imo. Markov at the deadline nets you at least 1-2 good assets. If you are not going for the cup this or next season then moving Markov would make sense from a asset point of view.


I remember a time not long ago where people were saying having Markov and his salary was brutal because he was always hurt. There are people out there who would have got rid of him and his salary right there and then. Now that he is back their tune has changed. Buy Low / Sell High has a lot more potential for the team as a whole when we are making that cup run, than Markov helping us to a cup over the next 2 seasons
Markov is the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team. What is "sell high", a late first? A rebuilding team isn't going to go all in for a guy in his mid 30's, and a contender isn't moving big pieces. This isn't Kessel where some team is going to build around him.

The same people complaining about his contract are the same ones who call to trade Plekanec every year, and probably said the same thing about Koivu. We replaced Koivu with Gomez, be careful what you wish for.

The timing of this topic is ridiculous, we are actually playing well and this tank stuff is coming out, really?

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02-04-2013, 10:07 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
I don't see why there is a 'conundrum'. Were Wings fans talking about a Lidstrom Conundrum? We have a fantastic defenseman that has spent his whole career with the Habs. We should be crossing our fingers that he can keep playing at a top level for another 3-4-5 years, not planning on when to move him. Even if/when his play dips, stop and realize how much he is helping guys like Emelin, Gorges, Subban, just by being around. Hopefully that extends to Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc. You don't just plug in some other body and expect the same type of result.

Some guys you don't trade away. Guys like Markov. Also, I'm still a bit upset that Koivu didn't finish his career here.
It doesn't get simpler than this.

Montreal, we always whine that we never have Elite players, yet the one we actually have is overlooked and people want to trade him for futures.

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Old
02-04-2013, 10:11 AM
  #105
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the Habs Trilogy:

The PK Ultimatum
The Markov Conundrum

Soon to be released:

The Pacioretty Supremacy

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Old
02-04-2013, 10:17 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
the Habs Trilogy:

The PK Ultimatum
The Markov Conundrum

Soon to be released:

The Pacioretty Supremacy
You forgot it is not a trilogy. The fourth one would be>> The Price is not right.

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02-04-2013, 11:08 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by googlymoogly View Post
You forgot it is not a trilogy. The fourth one would be>> The Price is not right.
It's already been filmed, leaked footage of Carey's appearance as a mountain climber


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Old
02-04-2013, 11:48 AM
  #108
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The only way you can justify trading the Markov we are currently
watching, is for a big over payment. For example, should the Leafs offer
Kessel straight up, you'd have to think about it. But you could still say no.

But what no one is saying is, what happens next year. By next trade deadline
you may have a good idea about whether he wants to extend, and at what
price. You will also have a much longer time to judge his health. This is when
a decision will need to be made.

Of course I'm hoping he already has his extension. And of course we'll
be contenders and really need him.

And NO I am not suggesting that we want Kessel. Some one earlier
said that Kessel had more value. And we certainly saw what he was
traded for. That's why I used him as an example.

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Old
02-04-2013, 12:09 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
I don't see why there is a 'conundrum'. Were Wings fans talking about a Lidstrom Conundrum? We have a fantastic defenseman that has spent his whole career with the Habs. We should be crossing our fingers that he can keep playing at a top level for another 3-4-5 years, not planning on when to move him. Even if/when his play dips, stop and realize how much he is helping guys like Emelin, Gorges, Subban, just by being around. Hopefully that extends to Beaulieu, Tinordi, etc. You don't just plug in some other body and expect the same type of result.

Some guys you don't trade away. Guys like Markov. Also, I'm still a bit upset that Koivu didn't finish his career here.
Please don't compare our situation to the Wings. Totally different ballgame. Detroit had already won multiple cups and had two of the best forwards in the league on their team. We're coming off a 15th place finish and several bubble years. Not the same thing at all.

That being said, our team is on the upside. The question is if the window of winning is now. And if it is now (and we really have to wait on this) then yeah we keep him. Nothing wrong with listening to offers but if we really do wind up having a shot at the cup this year or next then sure... hang onto him.
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Originally Posted by Dawnbringer View Post
And they didn't trade Koivu, he finished his contract with the Habs and wasn't offered another one. Which was, in my opinion, stupid.
Yup. The same guy who we couldn't live without or trade for anything suddenly we let walk away for zero...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
Yeah I get what you're saying there but in retrospect was trading Huet that great of an idea? Price had a rough couple of years without a veteran backup there helping him through it. I think having that veteran presence on blue line is important for Subban's continued development, and a veteran presence that he can respect.
Trading Huet was a great move. Price was actually pretty awesome up until he got hurt and then had a bad record (though didn't really play all that badly) the next year. Sure there was some adversity but he's better for it.

And PK's already proven he can handle the number one role. I'm not worried about him are you?

My only problem with the Huet trade was that we gave him away for next to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Quoted for truth. The comparison to Lidstrom is a good one but the draftpick obsessed will not like this one bit.

Plus, Markov could be a player that plays well into his 40's, we don't know what his career span is.
Draftpicks are a means to an end not an end in themselves. I'm all for dealing picks away once you become a contender, just not before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
And on the other hand, nobody is untouchable. For the right price, Price is available. So do we make a Price Conundrum thread?

No, because you don't look to trade these guys. If you are looking to get rid of someone, it probably means you aren't going to rip someone off for them.
Apples and oranges. If Markov was Price's age and didn't have the injury concern then we aren't having this conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Markov is the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team. What is "sell high", a late first? A rebuilding team isn't going to go all in for a guy in his mid 30's, and a contender isn't moving big pieces. This isn't Kessel where some team is going to build around him.

The same people complaining about his contract are the same ones who call to trade Plekanec every year, and probably said the same thing about Koivu. We replaced Koivu with Gomez, be careful what you wish for.

The timing of this topic is ridiculous, we are actually playing well and this tank stuff is coming out, really?
I don't think a late first is worth it for Markov if he plays like this and we're winning. If he had an okay year and we're struggling to make the playoffs... sure. But if he's playing like he is now and we're winning... price goes up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbedraven View Post
It's already been filmed, leaked footage of Carey's appearance as a mountain climber

Didn't watch the clip but the picture is epic.

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Old
02-04-2013, 12:10 PM
  #110
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No offense Lafleur's Guy, your intentions are good and I get where you are coming from, but you'd make a bad GM.

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Old
02-04-2013, 12:13 PM
  #111
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The first objection to this proposal is that trading Markov may not bring the Habs any closer to a championship. The second is that this is the suggestion of an armchair GM who reads blogs and web sites. Fans who attend games at the Centre Bell want to see the Habs win, not dream of some fantasy Cup win years hence.

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02-04-2013, 12:16 PM
  #112
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Lafleurs guy, I've been reading you for quite some time as a lurker and I get the main idea behind your philosophy. That being said, I think people are generally overrating the return big time for players being sold. Just look at what a guy like Marian Hossa got Atlanta. There are many other examples out there.

The best hockey deals to be made out there are just that, hockey deals. Neal-Goligoski and Stewart/Shattenkirk-Johnson kind of deals. The Carter and Richards trades also are good examples. When you give the best player in a deal, more often than not, you end up losing it. Giving up Markov at this point of his career when he has expressed the will to spend his whole career in MTL and when his value ain't even at a peak would not do Montreal any good. Especially since no other offensive d-men are anywhere close to breaking in the NHL in the organisation.

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02-04-2013, 12:17 PM
  #113
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Didn't read the thread but I hope everyone is saying "keep this guy until he retire"

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02-04-2013, 12:19 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Lafleurs guy, I've been reading you for quite some time as a lurker and I get the main idea behind your philosophy. That being said, I think people are generally overrating the return big time for players being sold. Just look at what a guy like Marian Hossa got Atlanta. There are many other examples out there.

The best hockey deals to be made out there are just that, hockey deals. Neal-Goligoski and Stewart/Shattenkirk-Johnson kind of deals. The Carter and Richards trades also are good examples. When you give the best player in a deal, more often than not, you end up losing it. Giving up Markov at this point of his career when he has expressed the will to spend his whole career in MTL and when his value ain't even at a peak would not do Montreal any good. Especially since no other offensive d-men are anywhere close to breaking in the NHL in the organisation.
Well said. You should have registered earlier

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Old
02-04-2013, 01:41 PM
  #115
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Markov has a NO TRADE CLAUSE (sorry if it was already mentioned).
We need him for playoffs...TWO things I want from Markov:
1) to stay healthy (by watching your back at all times for dirty/violent hitters...not being a sitting duck along the boards ever again...Subban and Gorges are good at watching their backs while protecting the puck)
2) perform during playoffs the way he does in regular season, but no.1...stay healthy! (please!).


Depending on how Markov does in playoffs and IF he manages to stay healthy this time...$4mil/year for TWO years he should take a rebate (so we have money for other players like Subban, Galchenyuk, Gallagher,etc + for the management's patience...waiting 3 to 3 1/2 years for Markov to play again is called being VERY PATIENT...hair pulling patient!).

Go Markov Go! keep it up, but please watch your back out there...can't be a sitting duck/easy target out there!).

It's too good to be true!!:
Can't believe Markov is healthy, Subban is back, Gorges is there, and Bouillon is playing like the warrior that he is and...is doing well on the PP (didn't think he can play PP but I'm really loving what I'm seeing from Bouillon...so patient/poised on the PP...was always a huge fan of Bouillon).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 02-04-2013 at 02:32 PM.
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Old
02-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
No offense Lafleur's Guy, your intentions are good and I get where you are coming from, but you'd make a bad GM.
This is thehfboards, 90+% of the people here would make bad GM's.
While I will never say I would make a good one myself, in my opinion being able to look at situations rationale and being willing to consider ALL possibilities is a key requirement for any gm to be "good". Bad GM's are the ones who shut the door on any ideas through knee jerk reactions or without fully considering all aspects. That's my philosophy. Whether you agree with Lafleur's Guy's points or not, he at least has that openness to consider the possibility of a move (even if he doesn't go through with it). To me that makes him a better GM than 90% of people here.

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Old
02-04-2013, 02:34 PM
  #117
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real GMs seem to do a heck of a lot less moves than armchair one's. probably gives you an indication of what traits the real job entails. the best moves GMs make are all the moves they don't make but that everyone clamours for.

thought it was pretty gutsy of Gauthier not to move Price and trade Halak when everyone (myself included) was enamoured with Jaro.

Markov is an incredible asset and would probably net a significant return just based on his power play performance let alone everything else he does.

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02-04-2013, 02:46 PM
  #118
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Don't see how there is a conundrum.
The correct answer is...it all depends.
If a team asks for Markov and offers the equivalent of what the Leafs offered for Kessel, well, it would be hard to say no.
If it's a 2nd round late draft pick, well, you probably say no.
Depends on what's offered.
Every player has a price.
Even Price.

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02-04-2013, 02:51 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Right, we CAN'T trade him. Just like you said we COULDN'T trade Koivu...

The only reason we might not actually be able to deal him is if he's got a NTC and exercises it. Otherwise we should consider offers. Stupid not to do this and we should have learned our lesson from previous debacles.
as per usual, you've completely missed the point.

And stop putting words into my mouth. I never said neither of those things.

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02-04-2013, 02:55 PM
  #120
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Don't see how there is a conundrum.
The correct answer is...it all depends.
There is like 4 pages of people who are completely closed to the possibility. That makes this a conundrum. And I agree that it does depend, having that possibility is the correct answer.

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02-04-2013, 02:55 PM
  #121
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Few people seem to understand that hockey in Montreal is a big business.

They think the Habs have the same freedom and luxuries to tank and sell out their vets as teams who are financially strapped. It's unrealistic. It can only happen (like our 15th place last season) when many specific things happen, and those things do not happen by design.

Little kiddies on this board still live by the illusion that the bottom line for Habs ownership is winning the cup. The bottom line is the same as any big business.

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02-04-2013, 03:05 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Lafleurs guy, I've been reading you for quite some time as a lurker and I get the main idea behind your philosophy. That being said, I think people are generally overrating the return big time for players being sold. Just look at what a guy like Marian Hossa got Atlanta. There are many other examples out there.

The best hockey deals to be made out there are just that, hockey deals. Neal-Goligoski and Stewart/Shattenkirk-Johnson kind of deals. The Carter and Richards trades also are good examples. When you give the best player in a deal, more often than not, you end up losing it. Giving up Markov at this point of his career when he has expressed the will to spend his whole career in MTL and when his value ain't even at a peak would not do Montreal any good. Especially since no other offensive d-men are anywhere close to breaking in the NHL in the organisation.
Sounds like you should have registered sooner, great post.

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02-04-2013, 03:10 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Few people seem to understand that hockey in Montreal is a big business.

They think the Habs have the same freedom and luxuries to tank and sell out their vets as teams who are financially strapped. It's unrealistic. It can only happen (like our 15th place last season) when many specific things happen, and those things do not happen by design.

Little kiddies on this board still live by the illusion that the bottom line for Habs ownership is winning the cup. The bottom line is the same as any big business.
Which is probably why the Pens will never trade Crosby no matter how outrageously he gets paid to the detriment of the team (not saying he is being overpaid). The only way Crosby leaves is if his marketability halo starts to diminish even if his playing production diminished years ago.

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02-04-2013, 03:17 PM
  #124
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Markov can play until he's 40. Although his knee has taken abuse in the past 3 years, nothing else on his body has. He has no miles on his legs and no other injury concerns.

It's like he's 32, not 35 IMO. The only risk with him is that knee. I don't think he'll slow to a crawl anytime within the next couple years at least.

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02-04-2013, 03:52 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Few people seem to understand that hockey in Montreal is a big business.

They think the Habs have the same freedom and luxuries to tank and sell out their vets as teams who are financially strapped. It's unrealistic. It can only happen (like our 15th place last season) when many specific things happen, and those things do not happen by design.

Little kiddies on this board still live by the illusion that the bottom line for Habs ownership is winning the cup. The bottom line is the same as any big business.

This is true. I will add, however, that nothing is better for business than winning a cup.

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