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The Race to the Bottom - Rebuild Thread.

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Old
02-03-2013, 02:12 PM
  #651
The Apologist
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Not many, but those teams that have superstars (like when we had Mats) in a critical position like C are going to have the foundation for success more so than teams with a bunch of pretty good pieces like we do.

I really like Kessel, and while I don't think he's the "face of a franchise" classic best player, I think the Leafs need to a) close the gap between Kessel and the next best player or b) more ideally, get a player who's a little better than Kessel.

I think Kadri, Gardiner and JVR can eventually deliver on the former, and Rielly could deliver the latter, but point remains, we need more elite talent.
I said it in another thread but ill repeat it here. We need to get over this notion that there is one type of player or style of play that leads to success. If we've seen anything, it's that you need everything to come together at the right time. Boston had no Crosby type player, just a goalie playing out of his mind. Kopitar is good, but to me he is nowhere near that level either. See Quick playing insane hockey again. Two different teams, different styles, different top talent. Pittsburgh had arguably three of the best centers in the game for many years, and one Cup. Chicago played a much more offensive game, and granted Toews played great, but what's happened since?

I could go on and on..

Anyway, must head out, again thanks for the awesome peaceful discussions ladies and gents.

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02-03-2013, 02:23 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I said it in another thread but ill repeat it here. We need to get over this notion that there is one type of player or style of play that leads to success. If we've seen anything, it's that you need everything to come together at the right time. Boston had no Crosby type player, just a goalie playing out of his mind. Kopitar is good, but to me he is nowhere near that level either. See Quick playing insane hockey again. Two different teams, different styles, different top talent. Pittsburgh had arguably three of the best centers in the game for many years, and one Cup. Chicago played a much more offensive game, and granted Toews played great, but what's happened since?

I could go on and on..

Anyway, must head out, again thanks for the awesome peaceful discussions ladies and gents.
To win the Cup you need extremely high talent with a decent D/goalie (Crosby, Malkin, Fleury etc) or a lot of grit and a good goalie.

Boston is a very tough team to beat...center depth down the middle, Chara is their #1D, Thomas played out of his mind.

Chicago falls into the category of having high talent. Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook...

Kings fall into having high talent and grit. Dustin Brown was great, Kopitar is a #1C, Doughty is a #1D, Quick is an elite goalie.

We don't have elite talent or grit. We're a team still trying to find it's identity.

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02-03-2013, 02:28 PM
  #653
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It is not a good thing if the Leafs finish outside of the playoffs and the Flyers and Caps pick top 5.

We need elite players a lot more than they do.
I highly doubt that Philly will crash this year, they will definitely turn it around, too much talent on that team and even though bryz kind of sucks, he does go on hot streaks.

Washington I have no clue, their goaltending is suspect now that holtby hasnt shown what he did in the playoffs, and the chemistry just seems off. But I dont see them anywhere near the bottom 5 either.

I would expect NYI to drop out soon, I dont believe they are a playoff team at all.

We seem more like a bottom 10 team than a bottom 5 team IMO, we're a very win one lose one kind of team, inconsistent but still decent.

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02-03-2013, 02:41 PM
  #654
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I highly doubt that Philly will crash this year, they will definitely turn it around, too much talent on that team and even though bryz kind of sucks, he does go on hot streaks.

Washington I have no clue, their goaltending is suspect now that holtby hasnt shown what he did in the playoffs, and the chemistry just seems off. But I dont see them anywhere near the bottom 5 either.

I would expect NYI to drop out soon, I dont believe they are a playoff team at all.

We seem more like a bottom 10 team than a bottom 5 team IMO, we're a very win one lose one kind of team, inconsistent but still decent.
Yeah, I think the Leafs will play good against teams like Montreal, Ottawa, Buffalo, Islanders, Tampa Bay...the teams we have traditionally had close games with and struggle against the teams that usually have our number:

Hurricanes, Flyers, Boston, Panthers etc.

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02-04-2013, 09:58 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I said it in another thread but ill repeat it here. We need to get over this notion that there is one type of player or style of play that leads to success. If we've seen anything, it's that you need everything to come together at the right time. Boston had no Crosby type player, just a goalie playing out of his mind. Kopitar is good, but to me he is nowhere near that level either. See Quick playing insane hockey again. Two different teams, different styles, different top talent. Pittsburgh had arguably three of the best centers in the game for many years, and one Cup. Chicago played a much more offensive game, and granted Toews played great, but what's happened since?

I could go on and on..

Anyway, must head out, again thanks for the awesome peaceful discussions ladies and gents.
Your observations can't be more useless.

The whole point of talking about previous winners when you're rebuilding is to have a measuring stick to know where your own team stands, and in the end, we don't have a Toews, Crosby, Kopitar, Chara or Quick.

You can go on and on, but it would be a waste of time unless you could actually discuss how we go about getting any one of those kinds of pieces.

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02-04-2013, 10:41 AM
  #656
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Toews Keith kane heck maybe even Seabrook niemi and sharp could immediately become the best player on this team.

Quick doughty and kopitar likewise...

Crosby MAF malkin maybe letang...

Chara Thomas savard bergeron...

And so on and so forth. The leafs need ELITE talent. The supporting pieces aren't so important. Its those 2/3 building blocks that you need to worry most about. Reilly could be that...kadri may be that, maybe phaneuf... but imo guys like grabbo and kessel are great supplementary pieces, they cannot serve as building blocks.

I don't want to say get rid of them for nothing, but imo there's an order to things. Get the elite guys FIRST. Spend whatever it takes. Then take what's left to give them the best supporting cast you can.

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02-04-2013, 10:46 AM
  #657
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I think Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner and Reilly can become Elite. I'm not going to go overboard and say Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos status. But a recognizable talent in the league.

Now, We need to build a cast around that core.

Kessel is a great complimentary piece to a established core - and he is young enough to build with.

It sucks to say, but we really do need a bright new face ; and it seems that the draft is the best way to do so. I will cheer this team to the very last game, but everyone knows the direction we are going in.

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02-04-2013, 10:48 AM
  #658
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Kessel is the only ELITE player on the team....

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02-04-2013, 11:06 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by donkeyy0 View Post
Toews Keith kane heck maybe even Seabrook niemi and sharp could immediately become the best player on this team.

Quick doughty and kopitar likewise...

Crosby MAF malkin maybe letang...

Chara Thomas savard bergeron...

And so on and so forth. The leafs need ELITE talent. The supporting pieces aren't so important. Its those 2/3 building blocks that you need to worry most about. Reilly could be that...kadri may be that, maybe phaneuf... but imo guys like grabbo and kessel are great supplementary pieces, they cannot serve as building blocks.

I don't want to say get rid of them for nothing, but imo there's an order to things. Get the elite guys FIRST. Spend whatever it takes. Then take what's left to give them the best supporting cast you can.
I'd rather have Kessel over half the guys you listed. The best teams in the league have two - three superstars with elite talent. We're one 1st line C away from being a really good team imo.

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02-04-2013, 11:10 AM
  #660
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Originally Posted by donkeyy0 View Post
Toews Keith kane heck maybe even Seabrook niemi and sharp could immediately become the best player on this team.

Quick doughty and kopitar likewise...

Crosby MAF malkin maybe letang...

Chara Thomas savard bergeron...

And so on and so forth. The leafs need ELITE talent. The supporting pieces aren't so important. Its those 2/3 building blocks that you need to worry most about. Reilly could be that...kadri may be that, maybe phaneuf... but imo guys like grabbo and kessel are great supplementary pieces, they cannot serve as building blocks.

I don't want to say get rid of them for nothing, but imo there's an order to things. Get the elite guys FIRST. Spend whatever it takes. Then take what's left to give them the best supporting cast you can.
I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but Kessel is somewhere between a Patrick Kane and Patrick Sharp in terms of value to a franchise player, and closer to Kane than Sharp at that.

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02-04-2013, 11:21 AM
  #661
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Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
I think Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner and Reilly can become Elite. I'm not going to go overboard and say Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos status. But a recognizable talent in the league.

Now, We need to build a cast around that core.

Kessel is a great complimentary piece to a established core - and he is young enough to build with.

It sucks to say, but we really do need a bright new face ; and it seems that the draft is the best way to do so. I will cheer this team to the very last game, but everyone knows the direction we are going in.
No, ideally Kessel is the second fiddle to a Tavares level player. That's about it.

He's more elite than anything else in the system, and the kind of player we would be lucky to see Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner or Rielly turn into, and he's not much older than any of them.

Sometimes, I really wonder about the fanbase when people talk about a "bright new face" as if they literally just objected to Phil Kessel's face.

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02-04-2013, 11:23 AM
  #662
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My ideal season would include

all wins against Habs, with fights, chirps cheap shots on both sides etc.
all wins against Sens with fights, chirps cheap shots on both sides etc.
final win of series against Bruins
Reimer with an incredible year
Kadri with a league-wide presence
Gardiner same

bottom 5 finish

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02-04-2013, 11:25 AM
  #663
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I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but Kessel is somewhere between a Patrick Kane and Patrick Sharp in terms of value to a franchise player, and closer to Kane than Sharp at that.
I disagree. I think kessel is closer to a franchise player than sharp, but i don't think its significant. Was hossa on that team? Lets say the cutoff is kane, there's still 3 guys better than our best player with 3 more guys who are at the very least in his category. And kessel is by far the most talented player on the leafs. The top end talent isn't even close to comparable. And that's what matters.

Like in LA, after kopitar/quick/doughty you still have brown/Richards/carter who are all at or near kessel's level.

I agree about sharp, might still take Seabrook over kessel though.

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02-04-2013, 11:33 AM
  #664
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No, ideally Kessel is the second fiddle to a Tavares level player. That's about it.

He's more elite than anything else in the system, and the kind of player we would be lucky to see Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner or Rielly turn into, and he's not much older than any of them.

Sometimes, I really wonder about the fanbase when people talk about a "bright new face" as if they literally just objected to Phil Kessel's face.
Exactly. Kessel needs to be the 2nd best player for this Team to be competitive again.

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02-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #665
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Exactly. Kessel needs to be the 2nd best player for this Team to be competitive again.
Yep. But still on the team. That's key.

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02-04-2013, 12:05 PM
  #666
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this is the most embarrassing thread ive ever seen for the record. You're not a fan if you like losing.

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02-04-2013, 12:11 PM
  #667
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Really hoping this team ends up with a lottery pick. If we end up drafting that franchise center after this shortened season, we'll be set for years to come.

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02-04-2013, 02:33 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
I think Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner and Reilly can become Elite. I'm not going to go overboard and say Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos status. But a recognizable talent in the league.

Now, We need to build a cast around that core.

Kessel is a great complimentary piece to a established core - and he is young enough to build with.

It sucks to say, but we really do need a bright new face ; and it seems that the draft is the best way to do so. I will cheer this team to the very last game, but everyone knows the direction we are going in.
Very true, Boston didn't see Kessel as a core piece, and basically let him go so they could target other core players and lock them up.

Chiarelli like it or not made a very smart decision, he outfoxed Burke who staked his job on Kessel, and we know how that turned out.

Nonis is brighter I hope and I think he is, infact I know he is. He will not stake his career on Kessel.

He's a good complimentary player, however he isn't a core one on a Stanley Cup winning team. Boston won a cup without him, this is the model that has worked. Proof is in the pudding from The Bruins winning the Cup without Kessel.

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02-04-2013, 03:21 PM
  #669
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this is the most embarrassing thread ive ever seen for the record. You're not a fan if you like losing.
Difference between accepting a loss versus enjoying one. I hate losing, but I can accept a loss for a improvement of the team. This season, I'm not for tanking, we're only 8 games in, but I'd like us to find an identity. I'm tired of this half assed rebuild, we either intend on competing or rebuild properly...

A rebuild should only occur at the most often every 10 years. Now of course the salary cap makes it harder, but if a team is well managed and you make your location desirable players will want to be there. Right now, not many players would be proud to say they're a member of the Leafs, I want that to change.

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02-04-2013, 04:18 PM
  #670
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I think Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner and Reilly can become Elite. I'm not going to go overboard and say Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos status. But a recognizable talent in the league.

Now, We need to build a cast around that core.

Kessel is a great complimentary piece to a established core - and he is young enough to build with.

It sucks to say, but we really do need a bright new face ; and it seems that the draft is the best way to do so. I will cheer this team to the very last game, but everyone knows the direction we are going in.
i know i may have that "shinny new toy" effect but i believe Rielly is that one player in our system that will be our nick lindstrom of the TML, a guy who can play top notch minutes move the puck i say nick lindstrom because he is the pinnacle of this, it proves u need high level Dmen aka Detroit to get the puck out, they never had elite goaltending and they were able to win a lot of cups. Toronto is finally adopting this, and even though Detroit got lucky with zetteberg and datsyuk we could pick up our top line center in this draft and have rielly phaneuf as our top D and kessel lupul complimenting guys like monahan or something. IMO if we tank our team becomes a playoff contender and after our big key players get there feet wet aka rielly and monahan we could have a stanly cup contending team. That 1 center is what were in need of and i think Kadri is a stud, i dont think he will become that stud #1 center we all really hope for, more of a Riberio #2 that will play against 2nd and 3rd dmen and put up a lot of points.

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02-04-2013, 05:05 PM
  #671
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Very true, Boston didn't see Kessel as a core piece, and basically let him go so they could target other core players and lock them up.

Chiarelli like it or not made a very smart decision, he outfoxed Burke who staked his job on Kessel, and we know how that turned out.

Nonis is brighter I hope and I think he is, infact I know he is. He will not stake his career on Kessel.

He's a good complimentary player, however he isn't a core one on a Stanley Cup winning team. Boston won a cup without him, this is the model that has worked. Proof is in the pudding from The Bruins winning the Cup without Kessel.

Not to squeeze the pressed tofu more - but I think what cost Burke his job was not lottery protecting that pick. I think any GM in his right mind seeing our roster would have done it. I don't think we would have made the playoffs - nor do I think we were bad enough to BE the 2nd worst team in the league - but I think most gms would have Lotto-protected the pick regardless. (and then NOT make the trade, if that was a condition).

I agree. Kessel needs super support. I hope we get it soon. (But i think we'll end up trading him though if we don't in the first days of the UFA season this season). only because of his limited NTC/NMC.

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02-04-2013, 05:20 PM
  #672
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Not to squeeze the pressed tofu more - but I think what cost Burke his job was not lottery protecting that pick. I think any GM in his right mind seeing our roster would have done it. I don't think we would have made the playoffs - nor do I think we were bad enough to BE the 2nd worst team in the league - but I think most gms would have Lotto-protected the pick regardless. (and then NOT make the trade, if that was a condition).

I agree. Kessel needs super support. I hope we get it soon. (But i think we'll end up trading him though if we don't in the first days of the UFA season this season). only because of his limited NTC/NMC.
Which just about tells you how badly Burke misread this team. Usually Kessel is a player that you add to a core player you are trying to build around, let's say Sundin.

Phil is a talented player, but he isn't a core one. Burke lost his job partly due to thinking he was, the difference between Chiarelli and Burke was Chiarelli got it right and won a cup.

Again, we can do the right thing if we learn from others and rebuild it properly. We have fooled ourselves long enough, so let's just get started this year, turn the page and get on the road to building a championship team. The circular method of failure has got to stop one hopes one day.

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02-04-2013, 09:00 PM
  #673
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this is the most embarrassing thread ive ever seen for the record. You're not a fan if you like losing.
I guess you're the real fan who would rather have mediocre play then a top 5 pick sorry to break it to you but the team isn't that good. We have fraiser on d. Kostka getting 23 minutes + a night. We have scrubs like Mac taking up minutes kadri and frattin should be getting. And as much as I love bozak he isn't #1c material. If we don't blow it up fine. But I want to draft a 1c this draft. This team sucks. Bring home MacKinnon.

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02-04-2013, 09:13 PM
  #674
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02-04-2013, 09:15 PM
  #675
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I guess I'm not a real fan because I want a top 5 pick.

If we finish anywhere near the top 5, we have to trade up and grab Seth Jones. He's just too valuable for this team.

I bet he could outplay everyone but Phaneuf right now if you stick him in the lineup.

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