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Phoenix - Glendale vs Scottsdale

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Old
02-02-2013, 02:58 PM
  #26
MartysBetterThanYou
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Suburban arenas in general just are not a good long-term proposition. As a region grows they become harder to get to, instead of easier, as traffic increases without the type of new infrastructure investments that downtowns receive as a region grows larger. There is a reason the Devils moved from East Rutherford to Newark, and the Islanders are moving from Uniondale to Brooklyn. A suburban area will always have its one or two highways leading to it from downtown, downtown gets new transportation connections, both road and mass transit, as a city grows. In the hub-and-spoke model that most metropolitan areas follow (South Florida is a notable exception), put regional attractions at the hub, not the spoke.

Besides Nassau Coliseum and BB&T Arena (in the aforementioned unique South Florida), Jobing is the last suburban arena left in the league, and by far the newest built. Downtown arenas provide economic development of surrounding businesses while suburban arenas exist as an island in a sea of parking lots and do little to improve the surrounding area. The Coyotes were doomed from the beginning because the US Airways Center could not support hockey.

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02-02-2013, 04:40 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post

How different is the Canadian system?
Varies. Some metros, some not. Usually what happens is that larger centres swallow up smaller ones ~ but that decision is made at the provincial level. In the last decade Quebec went through a province-wide amalgamation of municipalities. Toronto had a Metro gov't, but then all the members got amalgamated into Toronto 2.0 (again this was through the province). The Vancouver area still has a Metro gov't (also known as GVRD).

The main drive to amalgamate is for cost reasons. These cost savings never materialize as cities confoundingly continue to grow.

Rather uniquely, Halifax was a city that then merged into a regional municipality.

Out west, where land is cheap and people stand alone against the sky, the City of Regina acquires ($) land as needed from the RM of Sherwood, whose offices are two blocks away from City Hall.

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02-02-2013, 06:01 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
Varies. Some metros, some not. Usually what happens is that larger centres swallow up smaller ones ~ but that decision is made at the provincial level. In the last decade Quebec went through a province-wide amalgamation of municipalities. Toronto had a Metro gov't, but then all the members got amalgamated into Toronto 2.0 (again this was through the province). The Vancouver area still has a Metro gov't (also known as GVRD).

The main drive to amalgamate is for cost reasons. These cost savings never materialize as cities confoundingly continue to grow.

Rather uniquely, Halifax was a city that then merged into a regional municipality.

Out west, where land is cheap and people stand alone against the sky, the City of Regina acquires ($) land as needed from the RM of Sherwood, whose offices are two blocks away from City Hall.
The cities were amalgamated then they separated, recently they amalgamated again. Who knows what the next decade will bring?

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02-02-2013, 06:21 PM
  #29
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Because Phoenix didn't want to build one when they had just built an arena for the Suns.
Seems like a place that didn't have a second thought about having a hockey team. So hockey got relegated to the distant suburbs.

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02-02-2013, 06:30 PM
  #30
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Seems like a place that didn't have a second thought about having a hockey team. So hockey got relegated to the distant suburbs.
You, my friend, after years of me trying to make this point, get it. I'm sure others know that too, but no one ever talks about that part. They know to blame Bettman, but not for the real reason.

If they wanted one or anticipated one, they would have made the brand new building suitable for it. There are arenas in this country with neither NBA nor NHL who have done that.

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02-02-2013, 06:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
If they wanted one or anticipated one, they would have made the brand new building suitable for it. There are arenas in this country with neither NBA nor NHL who have done that.
Hindsight is 20/20. No one thought around 1990 that the NHL would be expanding to Phoenix of all places. Making a building multi-sport also wasn't the norm. I'm sure you know the story of how the Coyotes almost didn't end up in Phoenix too. So let's cut the crap about AWA not being designed for hockey because it 'wasn't wanted'.

The real question should be: Why did the Suns/Phoenix spend $70 million to renovate AWA (in order to compete with Jobing.com) when they could have just made it more hockey friendly with that money? Ellman pitched a few proposals, if I remember right. It wasn't like he was set on leaving. The answer is because Jerry Colangelo had one eye on the exit, selling the Suns to Sarver the year after. The Coyotes basically hemorrhaged cash because they couldn't get a good share of revenues when the Suns controlled the arena.

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02-02-2013, 07:04 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Hindsight is 20/20. No one thought around 1990 that the NHL would be expanding to Phoenix of all places. Making a building multi-sport also wasn't the norm. I'm sure you know the story of how the Coyotes almost didn't end up in Phoenix too. So let's cut the crap about AWA not being designed for hockey because it 'wasn't wanted'.
Sorry to use your own words against, XX.... But that expression also says a lot in of itself.

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02-02-2013, 07:19 PM
  #33
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Sorry to use your own words against, XX.... But that expression also says a lot in of itself.
It would be like putting a team in Seattle right now with no arena. Not a smart idea. But hey, it was the 90s and the NHL wanted new markets. I just don't buy the argument that AWA was purpose built for basketball to spite hockey, or that Phoenix didn't want hockey. It just never occurred to the city at the time. AWA was built cheaply (140m in dollars today) and specifically for the Suns. Think lots of exposed cement and brick. Within a span of 10 years, the Phoenix area got an NFL, MLB (plus ballpark) and NHL team. Is there really another city that went through such a change? A lot was in flux, and hockey wasn't the focus.

A Los Arcos arena would have been perfect. So missing out on that (along with the housing bubble burst) really screwed the Coyotes.

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02-02-2013, 08:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Hindsight is 20/20. No one thought around 1990 that the NHL would be expanding to Phoenix of all places. Making a building multi-sport also wasn't the norm. I'm sure you know the story of how the Coyotes almost didn't end up in Phoenix too. So let's cut the crap about AWA not being designed for hockey because it 'wasn't wanted'.
The point was, whether it be by desire or otherwise, they weren't ready to take on a hockey team, but someone said "yes" to somebody and it happened. Not enough people did their due diligence. They should've been in that Nashville-round of expansion.


Full disclosure: No, I don't know the full story of what other markets were seriously in the mix. From what I see, Phoenix shouldn't have been. That's not to say it shouldn't have ever happened, but the fouled-up timing is in part responsible for the situation they're currently in. Would be interested if you have a link though

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02-03-2013, 12:08 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
Most states just have city and county levels of government, with no metro-wide level that encompasses multiple cities and counties.

My understanding was that Canada, or at least Toronto, has a metropolitan level of govt. But I could be wrong.

...

How different is the Canadian system?
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Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
The Vancouver area still has a Metro gov't (also known as GVRD).
Vancouver doesn't really have a Metro level of gov't. Metro Vancouver is an area made up of a number of cities (Vancouver, Surrey, Burnaby, etc.). Together, they make up GVRD (now known as "Metro Vancouver"). This is just a regional district. British Columbia is divided into a number of regional districts.

I don't know the US system well enough, but to me regional districts would be the equivalent to counties. Metro Vancouver doesn't have its own separate level of government.

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02-03-2013, 12:40 AM
  #36
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Isn't ASU already trying to get in with the Cubs for baseball? I haven't followed this saga too much, but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on. Only problem is, are the Coyotes stuck at Jobing.com, or can they move?

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02-03-2013, 12:51 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The point was, whether it be by desire or otherwise, they weren't ready to take on a hockey team, but someone said "yes" to somebody and it happened. Not enough people did their due diligence. They should've been in that Nashville-round of expansion.


Full disclosure: No, I don't know the full story of what other markets were seriously in the mix. From what I see, Phoenix shouldn't have been. That's not to say it shouldn't have ever happened, but the fouled-up timing is in part responsible for the situation they're currently in. Would be interested if you have a link though
I can tell you from personal experience.

My first Coyotes game was a 4 pack deal on my birthday. It was my dad, mom, my friend and myself. We couldn't see half the rink, even after standing on the seats that were in the last row of AWA.

It was not a hockey venue, at all.

Why the NHL was brought here at AWA, I don't know. Colangalo presentedis, something, but I'm not at liberty to argue for that. I recently became a huge Coyotes fan while I was attending college.

Tonight I attended my first game in the upper bowl(I've only attended games in the lower bowl at Jobing.com), and I didn't miss any action. I honestly prefered that seat compared to the lower bowl because I didn't have to look at the jumbotron when the play was at the other side of the arena.

Reality is, most of the money is on the East side of the valley. Scottsdale would have done very well if they wanted the team, but unfortunately Glendale wanted the team.

Look, I'm a kid from Prescott/Flagstaff, that attended 6 games regularly each season. I've attended my 3rd game already this season, and will easily surpass 6 games this seasons, even with a shortened season. I live in the west valley, only about 20 minutes from the arena now.

I'm tired of people saying there isn't a fan base in Phoenix, because there is. One of the biggest problems is the location of the arena though.

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02-03-2013, 01:44 AM
  #38
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Isn't ASU already trying to get in with the Cubs for baseball? I haven't followed this saga too much, but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on. Only problem is, are the Coyotes stuck at Jobing.com, or can they move?
I'm an ASU guy and have been following that. Long story short, it fell apart because of the Cubs. That's OK. I didn't want their jinx on the ASU program anyway. But it shows that ASU could be open to a partnership. Wells Fargo is 40 years old next year and beyond outdated. A new arena could be something they want to pursue as they're in the middle of designing a plan to replace Sun Devil Stadium.

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02-03-2013, 02:11 AM
  #39
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Within a span of 10 years, the Phoenix area got an NFL, MLB (plus ballpark) and NHL team. Is there really another city that went through such a change? A lot was in flux, and hockey wasn't the focus.

A Los Arcos arena would have been perfect. So missing out on that (along with the housing bubble burst) really screwed the Coyotes.
Unless someone is from the southwest, I'm not so sure they would understand the metamorphosis Phoenix has experienced since about 1970 or so. The city's first pro team, the NBA's Suns, go back to 1967-68. In 1970, Phoenix had a population around 500,000. Now? The city of Phoenix on its own is 1.45 million or so. Between 1970-2010, Phoenix experienced a growth rate, on average by decade, of 27.3 percent. And that isn't including the 300 PERCENT growth rate it saw between 1960-70. In the span of 50 years, Phoenix has gained ONE MILLION people. And again, that's just Phoenix. That's an insane growth rate over a pretty short amount of time.

And, like was said above, the late 1980s and 1990s saw a sudden change in the sports landscape in the Valley. Phoenix went from just having the Suns in the mid-80s to having, within 15 years, the Cardinals, Coyotes and Diamondbacks. The entire city literally changed in under two decades. And when AWA was being built, the NHL just wasn't on the radar because, in 1990, the NFL had just arrived and was playing in a college stadium and there was no sign MLB was coming either. The Suns were still the big dog by default and I can honestly see why the arena was built in the format it was when it was because hockey just wasn't a thought. Think back to when AWA broke ground in 1990: The Kings were all alone on the US west coast/southwest. Was St. Louis the closest American team to LA then? I think so - no Avs or Ducks yet and the Stars were still in Minnesota, while the Sharks were still a year away. Why on earth would Phoenix think it'd have a shot at an NHL team when there was really no precedent of a southern/western migration before then or that one was coming? After all, the expansion/relocations of the 90s came fast, furious and almost by surprise.

The city of Phoenix isn't going anywhere and the NHL needs teams in the US West/southwest. I think that's why the NHL has held on for nearly four years there. They realize the future of the US population is in the south (from west to east) and rust belt cities will continue to lose people in the coming decades. I'm just a biased western American, but that's my take.

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02-03-2013, 01:45 PM
  #40
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Yeah, Phoenix metro historical population
1960: 700k
1970: 1M
1980: 1.6M
1990: 2.2M
2000: 3.3M
2010: 4.2M

That growth rate is why the NHL has been so determined to hang on. The hope is eventually the sheer mass of people will turn it into a success. And that's not a crazy thought. Phoenix in 2013 is not the Phoenix of 2000 or 1990. And the Phoenix of 2023 won't be the Phoenix of 2013.

Saying the Coyotes haven't worked so far isn't necessarily a slam dunk argument since it's a moving target. Ten years from now they'll be another million new people in Phoenix. And another million ten years after that.

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02-03-2013, 02:12 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
Yeah, Phoenix metro historical population
1960: 700k
1970: 1M
1980: 1.6M
1990: 2.2M
2000: 3.3M
2010: 4.2M

That growth rate is why the NHL has been so determined to hang on. The hope is eventually the sheer mass of people will turn it into a success. And that's not a crazy thought. Phoenix in 2013 is not the Phoenix of 2000 or 1990. And the Phoenix of 2023 won't be the Phoenix of 2013.

Saying the Coyotes haven't worked so far isn't necessarily a slam dunk argument since it's a moving target. Ten years from now they'll be another million new people in Phoenix. And another million ten years after that.
On the positive addition to this, the west has continued to grow. The area is flat for miles, and it just keeps on growing.

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02-03-2013, 03:04 PM
  #42
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On the positive addition to this, the west has continued to grow. The area is flat for miles, and it just keeps on growing.
Don't you run into federal lands not too far to the west?
Here's a map of Arizona land ownership.
http://www.aztreasury.gov/investment...state_land.gif


That's an issue for a lot of cities in the West. Expanding often requires permission from the Feds. And increasingly the people who run the federal bureaucracy are the type with a weird religious vendetta against the evil, sinful "sprawl". Oh no, somebody wants to live in suburbia! Ack! Somebody wants to live their life differently than me! Quick, declare the land they want a wetland or a park! Do something. Find an endangered species of cockroach! Anything to prevent the demon Sprawl from infecting us with its sinful suburban ways and tacky chain restaurants! The horror!

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02-03-2013, 03:15 PM
  #43
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Don't you run into federal lands not too far to the west?
Look at where the 303 is. Zero density. Plenty of room, even south of the 10. Then you have the entire San Tan valley, as far south as Casa Grande and as far east as Gold Caynon. Phoenix-Mesa Gateway airport is growing so rapidly that they had to plan out to 2030, to act as a relief on Sky Habor which is the 15th busiest in the world. Oddly enough, the housing bubble hurt Arizona but is also attracting people. What were once low prices are now even lower, so you can find Phoenix top 10 or top 5 on every 'fastest growing cities' list.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...th-during.html

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02-04-2013, 02:28 AM
  #44
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You, my friend, after years of me trying to make this point, get it. I'm sure others know that too, but no one ever talks about that part. They know to blame Bettman, but not for the real reason.

If they wanted one or anticipated one, they would have made the brand new building suitable for it. There are arenas in this country with neither NBA nor NHL who have done that.
They did want one, Jerry Colangelo asked Bettman if the NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix at some point in the future in 1992, while he was building America West Arena. Colangelo said if Bettman would have told him that NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix he would have built the arena to be suitable for both hockey and basketball. Unfortunately Bettman said the NHL wasn't likely to expand to Phoenix at the time so Colangelo built the arena as small as possible to fit a basketball court so that the crowd would sound extremely loud during games, which they often do, in order to provide a more intense atmosphere due to the loud resonation of the arena's acoustics. He built the arena this way, because he was a fan of the atmosphere at the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum also known as the "Madhouse on McDowell", which was the Phoenix Suns original home venue.

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02-04-2013, 09:10 AM
  #45
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For cities that aren't mass transit based (ie most cities in America) there's nothing magic about a downtown arena. For many cities in America being "accessible" is more about having a convenient location off the highway than being downtown.

The idea is to minimize the time and hassle of your fans getting to the arena. Sometimes that means locating downtown. But quite often it doesn't.
Downtown Phoenix > Glendale

Unless you live in the NW like Surprise, Peoria or Glendale, it is a pain in the ass to get to a Coyotes game. In a market where hockey isn't popular to begin with, that is deadly.


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02-04-2013, 10:43 AM
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They did want one, Jerry Colangelo asked Bettman if the NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix at some point in the future in 1992, while he was building America West Arena. Colangelo said if Bettman would have told him that NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix he would have built the arena to be suitable for both hockey and basketball. Unfortunately Bettman said the NHL wasn't likely to expand to Phoenix at the time so Colangelo built the arena as small as possible to fit a basketball court so that the crowd would sound extremely loud during games, which they often do, in order to provide a more intense atmosphere due to the loud resonation of the arena's acoustics. He built the arena this way, because he was a fan of the atmosphere at the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum also known as the "Madhouse on McDowell", which was the Phoenix Suns original home venue.
Yep, and I was shcoked when Colangelo first told this story on Primetime Sports up here in Canada.

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02-04-2013, 10:46 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Captain Coyote 96 View Post
They did want one, Jerry Colangelo asked Bettman if the NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix at some point in the future in 1992, while he was building America West Arena. Colangelo said if Bettman would have told him that NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix he would have built the arena to be suitable for both hockey and basketball. Unfortunately Bettman said the NHL wasn't likely to expand to Phoenix at the time so Colangelo built the arena as small as possible to fit a basketball court so that the crowd would sound extremely loud during games, which they often do, in order to provide a more intense atmosphere due to the loud resonation of the arena's acoustics. He built the arena this way, because he was a fan of the atmosphere at the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum also known as the "Madhouse on McDowell", which was the Phoenix Suns original home venue.
Bettman didn't even become commissioner until 1993, are you sure it wasn't Gil Stein? Or did Colangelo just get the year wrong?

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02-04-2013, 11:43 AM
  #48
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Yep, and I was shcoked when Colangelo first told this story on Primetime Sports up here in Canada.
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Originally Posted by Captain Coyote 96 View Post
They did want one, Jerry Colangelo asked Bettman if the NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix at some point in the future in 1992, while he was building America West Arena. Colangelo said if Bettman would have told him that NHL was interested in expanding to Phoenix he would have built the arena to be suitable for both hockey and basketball. Unfortunately Bettman said the NHL wasn't likely to expand to Phoenix at the time so Colangelo built the arena as small as possible to fit a basketball court so that the crowd would sound extremely loud during games, which they often do, in order to provide a more intense atmosphere due to the loud resonation of the arena's acoustics. He built the arena this way, because he was a fan of the atmosphere at the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum also known as the "Madhouse on McDowell", which was the Phoenix Suns original home venue.
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Bettman didn't even become commissioner until 1993, are you sure it wasn't Gil Stein? Or did Colangelo just get the year wrong?
The poster is tell the truth, he probably just got the names mixed up. It was probably gil stein, yet another disaster by him.

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02-04-2013, 01:33 PM
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Exactly. ASU/Coyotes need to go in together ala Hurricanes/NC State.
you touched on my thoughts as I read through this.

With Raleigh because of no arena they played in Greensboro where there was one. Greenboro is about 75 miles away from the Raleigh/Durham metro area. The arena there has been a frequent home of the ACC basketball tournament in March.

What they did in Carolina because it was using state dollars was to build the Arena on the NC State campus since they had just built an Arena for UNC it was NC States turn. The arena is used for NC State baseketball and other sports. It also uses the same lots as the NC State footbal stadium.

The islanders going to Brooklyn to play is an utter farcs. The Arena would be lowest capacity by far in the NHL. the team will lose alot more money than if they moved to some other city.

As for Phoenix....

The Arena is next to the football stadium used by the Arizona Cardinals (hosted past super bowls and will again in 2015)...If the product is good and the people in the Area want it then they will come out to it. I honestly think if they were able to play in the same arena as the Suns Phoenix would have been more successful. It doesnt help having a poor lease.

If you build an Arena putting it in downtown doesnt always work. It depends greatly on the area and how the traffic flow is. You could have a fantastic arena but if you put it in a location that is a traffic nightmare when you need to go to a game, people wont come.


Something comparative may be found in other sports....

Think of NFL when they destroyed the Kingdome to build a new home on the same lot they had Seattle play in the Univ of Washington football stadium for a couple of years. When Cleveland moved to Baltimore the team played in old memorial stadium while they build a new football field.

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02-04-2013, 02:13 PM
  #50
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From what I've read (and as always, YMMV), Scottsdale development wanted to see Ellman's books back in 2001 to see if he really could handle his end of financing and he basically told them to F' off and took his toys to Glendale.

And we all know how Glendale does due diligence...

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