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Old
02-03-2013, 10:25 AM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Dampland View Post
I can see players not having their scoring touch the first 8 games, or a defensively player having a couple bad games; ... but we are talking about 8 straight games of NOT PLAYING the MOST BASIC defense fundamentals.

I never had noticed Suter when he played for Nashville, so I'm not sure how this is how he played for them, but if it is, then he was way overpaid.

If he never played this bad until he got to Minnesota, then he is nothing more that a "show-me-the-money" player,who now is just coasting by and collecting checks.
He hasn't played as terribly as you've led on all eight games. I'm done with this stupid debate, because nothing i say will change your mind. You'll just have to wait tell Suter starts playing better. Then you'll understand how ridiculous your statements are.

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02-03-2013, 10:32 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
This organization is absolutely pathetic. Different players, same team. Same development program in the AHL. This mess is partly on the fans. Russo can't do it all. There is no responsibility. It's always just excuses. Koivu needs to lose the captaincy immediately. He's been captain for 3 years now and the same team continues to show up each year. Go back to the rotating captain. Hell, just remove it all together. I kind of feel sorry for Parise and Suter because what they are witnessing with this organization is what the fans have been watching for years. Just a bunch of individuals on ice with no direction and no passion for the game. Fletcher can only do so much. Yeo can only do so much. But these are grown ass players. They need to own up to their pathetic play.

Don't get me started on Granlund. He needs to be moved to wing immediately and demoted to third or fourth line. How the hell can someone dominate a professional league like he did and come over here and completely flop? After having some time in the AHL? Ugh. I don't even want to begin. Bulmer, Phillips, Hackett...hell even Coyle...

If they don't come out for Phoenix and completely dominate the Coyotes, this organization is in worse shape than we expected.
Are you F-ing kidding me?

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02-03-2013, 03:24 PM
  #578
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So, I passed out during the 2nd and watched the replay the next day. I shouldn't have. That was ****ing awful.


Sorry guys. I shouldn't make these GDTs, they are ruining the team and that is ruining the atmosphere.

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02-03-2013, 03:31 PM
  #579
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02-03-2013, 08:18 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
The Ducks' puck possession game is a lot more effective now that they have the effort to match. They were flying around last night, and that combination is tough to beat. In past years the Ducks were a lazy team, and that led to turnovers, little puck control, etc. That's different this year.

Why do the Wild not have a puck possession game? Coaching and personnel. Yeo's system is anti-puck control. Watch what happens when the Wild defensemen have the puck controlled in our own zone and look to move it up ice. You'll be lucky to see more than one Wild forward even in the same camera view. When the defensemen have the puck in their own zone, the forwards move up to the neutral zone, commonly past the first line of defending forwards. Then the defensemen usually throw the puck up ice along the boards, to get it around those forechecking forwards. If things go right, our forwards get a tip or something to create a legal entry into the offensive zone and try to go on the forecheck. But if things don't go right (commonly), we give the puck right back to the opponent. The system is not "pass it to me, I'll pass it to you". It's "oh crap I have to get rid of this puck before it's stolen from me". Sometimes you'll see the Wild pass their way through the neutral zone, but it's not common.

It's a boring, ugly, low-scoring system of hockey even when done right. It protects poorly-skilled defensemen since they don't have to be able to skate or handle the puck (Stoner, Prosser, Spurgeon, etc.). And conversely it neuters highly skilled defensemen as they can't rush the puck up ice on their own (Suter, Zidlicky, etc.). The forwards are a similar story. You can get by with slow, low-skilled players sometimes, but your highly skilled players aren't able to create things well either.

This type of system is easily hemmed in by a hard-working, big, skilled team like Anaheim, Detroit, or St. Louis. Supposedly Pittsburgh plays a similar way, and although I haven't looked closely enough to confirm, it seems interesting that both Yeo's Wild and Pittsburgh have been terrible at holding leads over the past few years. Anytime an opponent really amps up the effort level, this system has no answer. You simply cannot play reliable defense this way. You're always giving up the puck and consequently your own zone. Eventually bad things happens no matter how sound you are in your own zone. If this team had questionable goaltending, we'd be getting blown-out often.

But do we have the players to play a puck-possession game? No way. This roster is so slow that there's just no chance. We would need a roster blowup to fix it.
this x100

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Old
02-03-2013, 10:07 PM
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
...It protects poorly-skilled defensemen since they don't have to be able to skate or handle the puck (Stoner, Prosser, Spurgeon, etc.)...
One of them is not like the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
But do we have the players to play a puck-possession game? No way. This roster is so slow that there's just no chance. We would need a roster blowup to fix it.
Yes, we do. Some of our players might be slow, like Dany Heatley. Some of them may be average skaters, like Koivu, Granlund, Stoner and Falk. But to say that we're a slow team is a gross exaggeration and you know it perfectly well.

Otherwise you're spot on. Our system is ugly and the only reason it worked last year was because our roster wasn't suitable for anything else. We had a team full of grinders and Heatley.

Now it's different. It may be a style that's working for the first line, but it's only working because, let's face it, Parise and Koivu have a tremendous work ethic and they can more often that not actually go to the boards and steal the puck, creating an opportunity for Heatley who can dipsy doodle his way to the offensive zone about a minute late, just in time to receive the centering pass from either one of them. It fits our first line perfectly, it draws penalties and it's wearing the opposite defense down, bit by bit.

However, a player like Granlund can't win a puck battle in the corner, not in the NHL. Bouchard can, but that's not his game. Setoguchi can't, but that doesn't stop him from trying. Cullen gets toppled over before he can try. Mitchell, Konopka and Powe all can, but they have nobody to pass to nor the skills to create an effective play out of a corner.

In other words, the hustle and the dump'n chase hockey of last year might have worked until we got absolutely broken down by injuries. We had the hustle and the grit to make it work. But this year, with the influx of talent from our rookies as well as via free agency, we don't have to play that game any more. Honestly, I'm as surprised and disappointed in the coaching as you are, but to say that the Wild is not able to pull off the possession game is wrong. They should be, especially with that roster. They have enough speed, grit and playmaking ability to pull it off if they had someone to coach it to them. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Yeo sacked. I think he's done a good job with what tools he's had, and with the shortened season and so many new-


Wait a minute.


No, seriously.

What if... Okay, this is going to sound a little crazy, but bear with me.

What if it's all going to change? What if the dump'n chase hockey was just an interim plan to get through the start of the season until they learn the actual game plan? I mean, they must be working on something in the practice, right? You can see how calm Yeo is in the interviews. Of course he's not happy about not winning, as they're trying to win as many games as possible, but he has an ace up his sleeve. I'm quite sure the bottom 6, or at least the 4th line, will continue with the dump'n chase, because frankly it's working for them. But he's also in process of testing and experimenting on different tactics for the top lines, especially the middle six, who can't play that style of game.

It's the only explanation, really.

My theory is that the top line (Parise-Koivu-Heatley) is quite likely to remain intact, barring injuries or major slumps for any of the players. They will play a modified version of what they've been using thus far, carry the puck in a little more instead of dumping it in every time. Use Koivu as the "middle man" to work the transition from D through the neutral zone and pass to Parise who will carry the puck to the offensive zone. Get either a shot in or try to start a cycle. Meanwhile, Heatley will work his way to the slot where he either gets a scoring chance or at least draws attention from the opposing D, creating room for the D as the attention is on defending from Dany and disrupting the cycle.

However, the reason why the can't incorporate that yet is because they haven't been able to pull it off properly. Yet. And that's the challenging part. You can dream of any tactic and cycle plan you like, and any players to do it, but the opposing D most likely will break it sooner or later with anticipation and mobility and in general, good defense. However, the dump'n chase is pretty simple, and if done well, can be very effective, too.

The middle six here is interesting. We essentially have two lines (2nd and 3rd) consisting of following players:

Bouchard
Brodziak
Clutterbuck
Coyle
Cullen
Granlund
Mitchell
Setoguchi

That's 8 players and 6 spots. Now, Mitchell usually plays on the 4th line, but it's still one player too many. The question is: Who goes down? Who stays? And where?

We've been experimenting with the middle six throughout the season, yet there hasn't been a single game where they've been actually working. They're trying a different style of play than the top or bottom line, but they haven't been able to pull it off due to a lack of experience and the games played together. That's why the line roulette won't work in the long run. Yeo seems to think that Setoguchi and Granlund need a wake-up call, and it's true. They haven't been good at all. But there's also another meaning for this: He wants to see how Coyle does.

It's clear when you look at our forwards: We lack a power forward who can cycle. Meet Charlie Coyle. The question is: Who will he replace? And who will he play with? And most importantly: Is he ready?

We've tried Cullen - Granlund - Seto. Nope, two guys on an island and a rookie. We've tried Bouchard instead of Cullen. Nope, too soft and not fast or creative enough to get away from it. Also, not enough experience with each other. Now we're trying something completely different by taking Granlund out of the equation, and also Setoguchi. They're going to decide who stays and who goes. If Seto stays, Granlund's off to Houston. If Mikke stays, Seto's off to Pittsburgh. Coyle is the wild card here, as is Jason Zucker.

Speaking of whom, I feel that they would've replaced Setoguchi with Zucker, had he been the problem. The problem is that Zucker is a LW while Seto is a RW, and also you can't really trust two offensive rookies on the same line together. Hence Charlie Coyle.

Now, Zucker - Granlund - Coyle looks mighty good on paper, but will it translate to the ice? And if yes, is it a 2nd line or a 3rd line? Bouchard has been pretty good and he deserves nothing more than a promotion. He's been good in his role, and he's one of the few guys in this team who can actually carry the puck instead of chipping it in.

So, to summarize:

- The top and bottom lines are running similar plans, because it's working for them
- The middle six is a mess and hasn't found its game
- Granlund, Setoguchi and Coyle, which of them goes?

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Old
02-04-2013, 02:39 AM
  #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
The Ducks' puck possession game is a lot more effective now that they have the effort to match. They were flying around last night, and that combination is tough to beat. In past years the Ducks were a lazy team, and that led to turnovers, little puck control, etc. That's different this year.

Why do the Wild not have a puck possession game? Coaching and personnel. Yeo's system is anti-puck control. Watch what happens when the Wild defensemen have the puck controlled in our own zone and look to move it up ice. You'll be lucky to see more than one Wild forward even in the same camera view. When the defensemen have the puck in their own zone, the forwards move up to the neutral zone, commonly past the first line of defending forwards. Then the defensemen usually throw the puck up ice along the boards, to get it around those forechecking forwards. If things go right, our forwards get a tip or something to create a legal entry into the offensive zone and try to go on the forecheck. But if things don't go right (commonly), we give the puck right back to the opponent. The system is not "pass it to me, I'll pass it to you". It's "oh crap I have to get rid of this puck before it's stolen from me". Sometimes you'll see the Wild pass their way through the neutral zone, but it's not common.

It's a boring, ugly, low-scoring system of hockey even when done right. It protects poorly-skilled defensemen since they don't have to be able to skate or handle the puck (Stoner, Prosser, Spurgeon, etc.). And conversely it neuters highly skilled defensemen as they can't rush the puck up ice on their own (Suter, Zidlicky, etc.). The forwards are a similar story. You can get by with slow, low-skilled players sometimes, but your highly skilled players aren't able to create things well either.

This type of system is easily hemmed in by a hard-working, big, skilled team like Anaheim, Detroit, or St. Louis. Supposedly Pittsburgh plays a similar way, and although I haven't looked closely enough to confirm, it seems interesting that both Yeo's Wild and Pittsburgh have been terrible at holding leads over the past few years. Anytime an opponent really amps up the effort level, this system has no answer. You simply cannot play reliable defense this way. You're always giving up the puck and consequently your own zone. Eventually bad things happens no matter how sound you are in your own zone. If this team had questionable goaltending, we'd be getting blown-out often.

But do we have the players to play a puck-possession game? No way. This roster is so slow that there's just no chance. We would need a roster blowup to fix it.
I also think your dead on. I don't understand our dump the puck mentality at all. Why wouldn't we just want to enter the zone with speed and maintain control of the puck instead of giving it up hoping to be able to get it back again. I was shaking my head so many times the other night when our players would just dump the puck into the neutral zone or just inside the other teams blue line when they had nobody on them. Its like we are trying to give up possession. Why not just turn around and regroup. Sure we needed a change many times but its vicious cycle... turn over the puck get dominated, get it turn it over and change get dominated... This is another reason why we have such a hard time scoring at even strength.

Do you guys ever wonder why other teams simply skate right into our zone on their powerplay while holding onto the puck and hold your breath, make a play off of the rush. Our grind it out brand of hockey is one of the most boring styles of hockey around. And frankly I am starting to get sick of it. I guess a lot of problems are personnel issues. Bouchard and Parise are probably our only two forwards capable of nifty stick handling and agile skating while at a high speed. These are attributes necessary for maintaining puck possession while entering the opponents zone. No offense to Koivu but he just gets bottled up at the opposing blueline because he is too slow and not agile enough to make a move.

I'm hoping Zucker can bring this type of a game someday. I like what Suter and Brodin bring to the table in the puck possession aspect but our forwards just aren't built to play that type of hockey. We could really use a big speedy talented player in this draft like Monahan or Nichushkin. I think the Wild need to put more emphasis on skating ability when drafting players. If you can't skate you can't be a dynamic player in this league simple as that. You can say that they have been, but I just don't see it in our forward prospects besides Zucker.


Last edited by Randy BoBandy: 02-04-2013 at 02:55 AM.
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02-04-2013, 08:59 AM
  #583
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muck, does that sign say "the end is near" or the new phone books are here , the new phone books are here! (anybody under 40 name that movie)

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02-04-2013, 09:02 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by DANOZ28 View Post
muck, does that sign say "the end is near" or the new phone books are here , the new phone books are here! (anybody under 40 name that movie)
"He hates CANS!!!!!!!"


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02-04-2013, 09:09 AM
  #585
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muck, does that sign say "the end is near" or the new phone books are here , the new phone books are here! (anybody under 40 name that movie)
MNSOTA's favorite movie, the Jerk.

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02-04-2013, 09:10 AM
  #586
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"He hates these CANS!!!!!!!"

Fixed it for you, now have yourself a Cup of Pizza.

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02-04-2013, 09:22 AM
  #587
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And we have a winner...

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Originally Posted by Patp14 View Post
I also think your dead on. I don't understand our dump the puck mentality at all. Why wouldn't we just want to enter the zone with speed and maintain control of the puck instead of giving it up hoping to be able to get it back again. I was shaking my head so many times the other night when our players would just dump the puck into the neutral zone or just inside the other teams blue line when they had nobody on them. Its like we are trying to give up possession. Why not just turn around and regroup. Sure we needed a change many times but its vicious cycle... turn over the puck get dominated, get it turn it over and change get dominated... This is another reason why we have such a hard time scoring at even strength.

Do you guys ever wonder why other teams simply skate right into our zone on their powerplay while holding onto the puck and hold your breath, make a play off of the rush. Our grind it out brand of hockey is one of the most boring styles of hockey around. And frankly I am starting to get sick of it. I guess a lot of problems are personnel issues. Bouchard and Parise are probably our only two forwards capable of nifty stick handling and agile skating while at a high speed. These are attributes necessary for maintaining puck possession while entering the opponents zone. No offense to Koivu but he just gets bottled up at the opposing blueline because he is too slow and not agile enough to make a move.

I'm hoping Zucker can bring this type of a game someday. I like what Suter and Brodin bring to the table in the puck possession aspect but our forwards just aren't built to play that type of hockey. We could really use a big speedy talented player in this draft like Monahan or Nichushkin. I think the Wild need to put more emphasis on skating ability when drafting players. If you can't skate you can't be a dynamic player in this league simple as that. You can say that they have been, but I just don't see it in our forward prospects besides Zucker.
I've been calling on the Wild to draft a big, speedy, skilled forward the last few drafts and we picked up defenseman instead. While they're mobile and in Brodin's case sublimely skilled I felt we were ignoring our overall lack of team speed. Drafting a slower forward like Zack Phillips was counter productive and I said as much and was blasted for it. Granlund's lack of wheels was a big red flag to me when we drafted him to; beyond just his small size. I still stand by that assessment. This team has some serious (lack of) speed issues. If Granlund was as fast as other players who are his his size playing in the NHL, the Wild's 2nd line may have worked pretty well but instead he slows that line down and isn't fast enough to create time and space for him to make many plays consistently.

Dumping the puck and chasing it with slow players is ridiculous because we're begging to fail and be frustrated because you're asking our players do things they're quite frankly, most are not capable of and that's beating an opposing defenseman to the puck on a dump in. We just don't have those kinds of wheels.

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02-04-2013, 09:49 AM
  #588
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why no gameday thread for phx yet? i'm very disappointed the wild dont have better chemistry right out of the gate. nobodys red hot. i thought we had added speed over the last 2 years. mgmt has spent the money, the players have to step up & make it happen. kc your the winner! cheers

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02-04-2013, 10:37 AM
  #589
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why no gameday thread for phx yet? i'm very disappointed the wild dont have better chemistry right out of the gate. nobodys red hot. i thought we had added speed over the last 2 years. mgmt has spent the money, the players have to step up & make it happen. kc your the winner! cheers
We're lacking it in the top 6. Parise is good. He's fast, hard working, and can score goals. But Koivu and Heatley are slow. You miss out on offensive opportunities when the top line is too slow. No rushes up the ice, too slow for dump and chase. Can't really do much with Koivu, we're stuck with him. Heatley's contract is almost up so I'm curious to see what will happen then. Who will replace him on the first line.

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02-04-2013, 10:48 AM
  #590
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Can't really do much with Koivu, we're stuck with him.
I sure wish we could dump a top 30 C in the game. And probably a top 5 two-way C. Because we have plenty more waiting in the wings.

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02-04-2013, 10:54 AM
  #591
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Well, that game was an embarrassment.

I hate the Ducks. I mean, I hate the Ducks. Pronger hasn't been gone long enough for the smell to be bearable yet. But it was hard to hate the only team that showed up to play.

I think what annoyed me the most about the game was the lack of team unity. It was great that the forwards got together and planned out a special day to skip work, but they should have either included the whole team or not done it at all. When Heatley led Granlund by the hand into Cars Land, didn't they think Suter might like to be there too? When Parise excitedly talked Setoguchi and Bouchard into a fifth straight viewing of It's Tough To Be A Bug, wouldn't that have been a great bonding activity to share with Backstrom? And Konopka, you wouldn't have come out of Ariel's Undersea Adventure singing "Kiss the Girl" by yourself if Tom Gilbert had been with. But instead, you guys chose to be clique-ish and leave a bunch of your teammates to do their work and all your work. Not cool, guys.

With none of the forward lines in attendance at the game, I was left appreciating Brodin's passing, which stood out a little more every time Falk flung the puck along the boards the second it touched his stick like he was testing to see if the Infinite Shot code he entered before the game had worked. It didn't. And there's icing.

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02-04-2013, 11:15 AM
  #592
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Someone should copy paste this nr 24 page and send its best pieces to Fletcher and Co as an letter
It's truly epic almost religiously good assessments off the situation

Wild has to evaluate their game plan ,wild is not a "justin falk" team anymore

Wild should not need to be afraid off puck possession because the team that owns the puck owns the game on the long run

I watched both HABS and Ducks games and it hit me how neanderthal the wild game plan is

It's kind off afraid off it's own existence that its sickening ,This ALAMO dumb and chase system has to get more civilized and attack orientated.

Because wild is not a mikko koivu/ zack parisee team ,were not full off 2 way elite players that can grind out wins true exhausting the opposition on the long run .

The way i see the current system is too demanding it's kind off chewing wilds own forwards to pieces during the course off an whole season and causing injuries and goal drought, i know it sounds harsh but thats how i feel

Its almost like in real war if someone's hitting you all the time sooner or later you will get K.O d out off the game and that's how wilds seasons look like with this system

Att the start your fresh in the middle your start to buckle and after that you "snap"

That's because off too much time in the defensive zone compared to time in the offensive zone

In your own zone **** happen you concede goals you get 2 long line shifts you have to block shots take hit's from rushing forwards and so on not to talk about taking penalties that makes some players play too much and some get cold

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02-04-2013, 11:25 AM
  #593
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in the line combo thread i thought from day one heatley should be on the 2nd line. preferably w seto & brodz but we could try it w granlund and then bump clutterbuck or coyle on the top line. just my one worthless cent that yeo will never listen 2.

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02-04-2013, 11:28 AM
  #594
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I love Clutterbuck but the guy has no business getting regular minutes on a top line.

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02-04-2013, 11:29 AM
  #595
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you can teach a player to skate, you can't teach skills & hockey IQ, simple as that.

Minnesota has some of the best Skating Schools, and Coaches in the world, i don't buy this draft the biggest and best skaters with questionable IQ for the game.

quick edit: not that im against that for later rounds, but if there is a player that has decent skating, but way higher IQ for the game than the other, im going to draft the player i can teach to skate and develop.

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02-04-2013, 11:33 AM
  #596
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Can't really do much with Koivu, we're stuck with him.
Wow, that sure is a terrible fate Do you think maybe we could get a bag of pucks for him? He's the only 1st line caliber center this team has. Period. And yes, he's 1st line caliber. Not top 10, but still a decent one even when compared to other teams. If he was a 2nd line center somewhere, he'd be elite level.

Seriously. If you want a big, skilled, speedy center, you either acquire one or you draft one. There are Z-E-R-O players like that in the prospect pool and there's not enough cap space to acquire one right now, and very very few teams would be interested in letting a player or even a prospect like that go. How many teams do you think would trade their elite 1st line C for Koivu +? And even if someone agreed to do it, the same problem would still be there: lack of a decent 2nd line center.

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02-04-2013, 11:35 AM
  #597
MNWILDFAN001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
I sure wish we could dump a top 30 C in the game. And probably a top 5 two-way C. Because we have plenty more waiting in the wings.
I should clarify. I didn't intend for that to mean I think Koivu is bad. I just have this wish of a top line with speed in every position. Koivu is a very good center when he has the puck on his stick. But his lack of speed does hinder him. And with his long contract my wish for a 1st line built with speed won't be coming true anytime soon.

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02-04-2013, 11:36 AM
  #598
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Dump-and-chase is a counter to the netural zone trap and it requires speedy forwards. Since the defense is stationary, a fast team can chip pucks past them, and retrieve the puck while the defense is turning around.

The reason our dump-and-chase isn't working is because (1) we don't have fast forwards, (2) our forwards are just as stationary as the defense, (2) our break-out is terrible so our players have to line-change instead of pressuring the O-zone, and (4) only 1 guy on each line seems to want to pressure the puck at a given time.

I'm not freaking out about the team like some are, but I do recognize that the Wild forwards need to move away from the Bouchards, Cullens, Setoguchis, and even Heatleys to be successful, since none of those guys can effective pressure the puck.

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02-04-2013, 11:45 AM
  #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grN1g View Post
you can teach a player to skate, you can't teach skills & hockey IQ, simple as that.

Minnesota has some of the best Skating Schools, and Coaches in the world, i don't buy this draft the biggest and best skaters with questionable IQ for the game.

quick edit: not that im against that for later rounds, but if there is a player that has decent skating, but way higher IQ for the game than the other, im going to draft the player i can teach to skate and develop.
Isn't that what kids are taught when they start playing hockey? And you may be able to teach a player to be quicker up to a certain point. But speed is like hockey IQ, some players have it and some don't. There's no way Koivu is going to learn to be as quick as Gaborik.

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02-04-2013, 12:11 PM
  #600
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UMD05, so a guy (clutterbuck) who can potentially score 20G has no business being given a shot on the top line? not to mention hes faster than heatley. who else do we have thats a guaranteed 20 plus goal scorer??? (talking about other options). pmb is not willing to go into the corners & dig out the puck. i must disagree. ps wheres ulf dahlen when you need him?

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