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"NHL dream still alive in Connecticut"

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Old
02-04-2013, 08:53 AM
  #26
Shrimper
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When you consider who is vying for potential expansion/relocation it makes it hard to see why Hartford would be considered over Quebec, Seattle and potentially a Toronto 2.

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02-04-2013, 09:03 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
When you consider who is vying for potential expansion/relocation it makes it hard to see why Hartford would be considered over Quebec, Seattle and potentially a Toronto 2.
Not considering them over Quebec, but at the same level. Toronto already has a team and Seattle never got one. Hartford lost one, that's why I think people consider the Whale like that.

Moreover, your argument is mainly based on some sort of "merit" or moral, while a relocation/expansion has an economic/financial goal for the NHL and the ownership concerned. You can't really say that a Leaf fan is better than a Thrasher fan for instance IMO.


Last edited by Le BlueNote: 02-04-2013 at 09:07 AM. Reason: argument
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02-04-2013, 09:10 AM
  #28
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Problems with Connecticut are 1) Hartford is an absolute dump and 2) The Rangers have a following in the southern and eastern part of the state, Bruins in the Northern and Western part. The population is very spread out, so it can't be easy for most people to get to Hartford for a game on a regular basis.

A benefit is Connecticut is a fairly wealthy state per capita, so there are enough people with money who could buy season tickets. The question is will those wealthy people do so?

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02-04-2013, 09:11 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by azaloum90 View Post
So, even the future of the Whale's Arena use is in ownership hands then?

Man, being a real sports fan sucks lol
I believe the Rangers, well Dolan, owns the Hartford Civic Center (or whatever it is called now).

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02-04-2013, 10:21 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I believe the Rangers, well Dolan, owns the Hartford Civic Center (or whatever it is called now).
Nope, the city of Hartford owns the XL Center (former Civic Center). Though AEG (Kings' owner) the current operator of the arena and, interestingly enough, they're managing the KC arena too.

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02-04-2013, 10:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Le BlueNote View Post
Based on these stats from hockeydb, Hartford fans filled between 60 and 80% of their arena during the last years of the Whalers. If we compare those with the Jets numbers, it's not even close, though I don't know the major reason why Winnipeg lost their team in the first place. Yet, the Jets example is a good one about absence. I still think that this would be a bad idea, especially considering there are other cities dying to get a team and with a much better market.
The thing about those numbers though...

nobody in Canada was selling out. Take a look at Edmonton - their attendance wasn't far ahead of Winnipeg. Yet today, in the very same arena, they have consistently been selling out year after year.

Somehow in the last 15 years or so, Canada has become much more passionate about hockey than ever before.

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02-04-2013, 10:54 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Yukon Joe View Post
The thing about those numbers though...

nobody in Canada was selling out. Take a look at Edmonton - their attendance wasn't far ahead of Winnipeg. Yet today, in the very same arena, they have consistently been selling out year after year.

Somehow in the last 15 years or so, Canada has become much more passionate about hockey than ever before.
Or canada went from being one of the poorest countries in the western world to one of the richest

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02-04-2013, 11:34 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Le BlueNote View Post
Not considering them over Quebec, but at the same level. Toronto already has a team and Seattle never got one. Hartford lost one, that's why I think people consider the Whale like that.

Moreover, your argument is mainly based on some sort of "merit" or moral, while a relocation/expansion has an economic/financial goal for the NHL and the ownership concerned. You can't really say that a Leaf fan is better than a Thrasher fan for instance IMO.
I'm not saying that any of those merit a team but Quebec looks set to be in place to accept an NHL team mostly out of all of those. Seattle just needs and Arena and I think that whilst Toronto 2 is a long shot it's most likely as it'd be a cash cow for the league. Connecticut Whale is probably all that Hartford will get for the forseeable future.

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02-04-2013, 12:35 PM
  #34
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Oh okay, I agree with you on this. The simple fact that Quebec or even Hamilton have longer threads on this forum and that the Hartford talk isn't much consequent in the news kind of confirm that too.

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02-04-2013, 12:39 PM
  #35
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I'd be delighted, but if it ever happens it's going to be because one very rich man made it his crusade.

And I DON'T MEAN HOWARD BALDWIN.
Basically what they need is Terry Pegula on steroids.

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02-04-2013, 02:28 PM
  #36
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Basically what they need is Terry Pegula on steroids.
No just a Terry Pegula and a new arena.

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02-04-2013, 02:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Problems with Connecticut are 1) Hartford is an absolute dump and 2) The Rangers have a following in the southern and eastern part of the state, Bruins in the Northern and Western part. The population is very spread out, so it can't be easy for most people to get to Hartford for a game on a regular basis.

A benefit is Connecticut is a fairly wealthy state per capita, so there are enough people with money who could buy season tickets. The question is will those wealthy people do so?
1. Better than Detroit/Chicago 2. Once you get to the NY/CT border there's plenty of Ranger fans, but in Central CT where there's 1.3 Mil the one's who would be called upon to support the franchise the most the Whalers are still #1 after 15+ years.


Last edited by NHL Hartford: 02-04-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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02-04-2013, 04:01 PM
  #38
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I don't know if anyone posted this article on this forum before, but here's an interesting report from NESN :

Quote:
The Post’s sources are indicating that Malloy has formed a group to look into bringing a team back to the Hartford-New Haven market. The group has even approached at least one potential buyer.

The Hartford-New Haven TV market is the biggest market without a major-league sports team. A second source told The Post that Malloy’s plan is to build a new arena, but not necessarily in Hartford. Last summer, commissioner Gary Bettman told Malloy an investment of $480 million would be needed to build an arena but that it was “unlikely” that a team would relocated to the Constitution State.
The TV Market thing is quite interesting, considering TV deals for "small" teams are fundamental along with gate entries. What is said in the article is globally confirming what many of you were saying, that Hartford/CT could potentially be a big market in the US. Though the Bettman statement isn't very encouraging for the Whalers' fan. Do we have any example of such skepticism from Bettman regarding a possible expansion/relocation (WPG, Phx, Hamilton, Seattle ?)

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02-04-2013, 04:24 PM
  #39
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here's the simple argument against Connecticut/Hartford:

Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
State Data:
State2010 Population2000 Population% Change# NHL teams # NBA teams #MLB Teams # NFL Teams #MLS teams
California37 253 95633 871 6489.99%34533
Texas25 145 56120 851 82020.59%13222
New York19 378 10218 976 4572.12%32**23**1**
Florida18 801 31015 982 37817.64%22230
Illinois12 830 63212 419 2933.31%11211
Pennsylvania12 702 37912 281 0543.43%21221
Ohio11 536 50411 353 1401.62%11221
Michigan9 883 6409 938 444-0.55%11110
Georgia9 687 6538 186 45318.34%01110
North Carolina9 535 4838 049 31318.46%11010
New Jersey8 791 8948 414 3504.49%12**2**2**1**
Virginia8 001 0247 078 51513.03%1*1*1*1*1*
Washington6 724 5405 894 12114.09%00111
Massachusetts6 547 6296 349 0973.13%11111
Indiana6 483 8026 080 4856.63%01010
Arizona6 392 0175 130 63224.59%11110
Tennessee6 346 1055 689 28311.54%11010
Missouri5 988 9275 595 2117.04%10221*
Maryland5 773 5525 296 4869.01%1*1*2*2*1*
Wisconsin5 686 9865 363 6756.03%01110
Minnesota5 303 9254 919 4797.81%11110
Colorado5 029 1964 301 26116.92%11111
Alabama4 779 7364 447 1007.48%00000
South Carolina4 625 3644 012 01215.29%00000
Louisiana4 533 3724 468 9761.44%01010
Kentucky4 339 3674 041 7697.36%00000
Oregon3 831 0743 421 39911.97%01001
Oklahoma3 751 3513 450 6548.71%01000
Puerto Rico3 725 7893 808 610-2.17%00000
Connecticut3 574 0973 405 5654.95%00000
Iowa3 046 3552 926 3244.10%00000
Mississippi2 967 2972 844 6584.31%00000
Arkansas2 915 9182 673 4009.07%00000
Kansas2 853 1182 688 4186.13%001*1*1*
Utah2 763 8852 233 16923.77%01001
Nevada2 700 5511 998 25735.15%00000
New Mexico2 059 1791 819 04613.20%00000
West Virginia1 852 9941 808 3442.47%00000
Nebraska1 826 3411 711 2636.72%00000
Idaho1 567 5821 293 95321.15%00000
Hawaii1 360 3011 211 53712.28%00000
Maine1 328 3611 274 9234.19%00000
New Hampshire1 316 4701 235 7866.53%00000
Rhode Island1 052 5671 048 3190.41%00000
Montana 989 415 902 1959.67%00000
Delaware 900 877 783 60014.97%00000
South Dakota 814 180 754 8447.86%00000
Alaska 710 231 626 93213.29%00000
North Dakota 672 591 642 2004.73%00000
Vermont 625 741 608 8272.78%00000
Washington D.C. 601 723 572 0595.19%1*1*1*1*1*
Wyoming 563 626 493 78214.14%00000
*For the purposes of this chart, DC area teams are counted once in each of virginia, maryland, and DC. Similarly, KC teams are double counted in Kansas and Missouri.
**NYC baseball, football, and basketball teams are doublecounted in NY and NJ. Only the devils are counted for the NHL.

observations:

-Texas appears to be underserved. Houston is often thrown around as a potential NHL location, and this shows why.
-Washington is a large, growing state with no NHL team. Once city data is available, seattle's rank vs other metropolitan areas or combined statistical areas will clarify if the NHL should make it a priority.
-If the coyotes were to move, arizona would likely represent one of the top potential markets for the NHL.

City Data:
I included the top 51, because rochester and albany are essentially equivalent, though both are likely irrelevant to any discussion here.
*The panthers were counted as miami. Yeah... i know, but it makes the most sense. Also of note, the green bay packers are not represented on this list, for obvious reasons.
City* Census 2010* Census 2000* Growth %* # NHL teams* # NBA teams* # MLB teams* # NFL teams* # MLS teams*
New York, NY-NJ-CT-PA (CSA) 22,232,494 21,361,797 4.08% 3 2 2 2 1
Los Angeles, CA (CSA) 17,820,893 16,373,645 8.84% 2 2 2 2
Chicago, IL-IN-WI (CSA) 9,804,845 9,312,255 5.29% 1 1 2 1 1
Washington-Baltimore, DC-MD-VA-WV (CSA) 8,440,617 7,572,647 11.46% 1 1 2 2 1
Boston, MA-RI-NH (CSA) 7,609,358 7,298,695 4.26% 1 1 1 1 1
San Francisco, CA (CSA) 7,427,757 7,092,596 4.73% 1 1 2 2 1
Dallas, TX (CSA) 6,805,275 5,487,956 24.00% 1 1 1 1 1
Philadelphia, PA-NJ-DE-MD (CSA) 6,533,122 6,207,223 5.25% 1 1 1 1 1
Houston, TX (CSA) 5,968,586 4,815,122 23.96% 1 1 1 1
Atlanta, GA-AL (CSA) 5,831,778 4,548,344 28.22% 1 1 1
Miami, FL (MSA) 5,547,051 5,007,564 10.77% 1 1 1 1
Detroit, MI (CSA) 5,327,764 5,357,538 -0.56% 1 1 1 1
Phoenix, AZ (MSA) 4,364,094 3,251,876 34.20% 1 1 1 1
Seattle, WA (CSA) 4,158,293 3,707,144 12.17% 1 1 1
Minneapolis, MN-WI (CSA) 3,604,460 3,271,888 10.16% 1 1 1 1
Denver, CO (CSA) 3,110,436 2,629,980 18.27% 1 1 1 1 1
San Diego, CA (MSA) 3,053,793 2,813,833 8.53% 1 1
St. Louis, MO-IL (CSA) 2,892,874 2,754,328 5.03% 1 1 1
Cleveland, OH (CSA) 2,891,988 2,945,831 -1.83% 1 1 1
Orlando, FL (CSA) 2,747,614 2,191,081 25.40% 1
Tampa, FL (MSA) 2,747,272 2,395,997 14.66% 1 1 1
Pittsburgh, PA (CSA) 2,445,117 2,525,730 -3.19% 1 1 1
Sacramento, CA-NV (CSA) 2,436,109 2,069,298 17.73% 1
Charlotte, NC-SC (CSA) 2,389,763 1,897,034 25.97% 1 1
Portland, OR-WA (MSA) 2,241,841 1,927,881 16.29% 1 1
Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN (CSA) 2,214,954 2,050,175 8.04% 1 1
Kansas City, MO-KS (CSA) 2,136,653 1,901,070 12.39% 1 1 1
San Antonio, TX (MSA) 2,072,128 1,711,703 21.06% 1
Indianapolis, IN (CSA) 2,064,870 1,843,588 12.00% 1 1
Columbus, OH (CSA) 2,031,229 1,835,189 10.68% 1 1
Las Vegas, NV (CSA) 1,947,068 1,408,250 38.26%
Milwaukee, WI (CSA) 1,760,268 1,689,572 4.18% 1 1
Austin, TX (CSA) 1,750,224 1,283,910 36.32%
Salt Lake City, UT (CSA) 1,743,364 1,469,474 18.64% 1 1
Raleigh, NC (CSA) 1,742,816 1,314,589 32.57% 1
Norfolk, VA-NC (MSA) 1,674,498 1,576,370 6.22%
Nashville, TN (CSA) 1,666,566 1,381,287 20.65% 1 1
Greensboro, NC (CSA) 1,581,122 1,414,656 11.77%
Louisville, KY-IN (CSA) 1,395,634 1,292,482 7.98%
Jacksonville, FL (MSA) 1,328,144 1,122,750 18.29% 1
Grand Rapids, MI (CSA) 1,327,366 1,254,661 5.79%
Hartford, CT (CSA) 1,313,516 1,257,709 4.44%
Memphis, TN-MS-AR (MSA) 1,304,926 1,205,204 8.27% 1
Oklahoma City, OK (CSA) 1,297,552 1,160,942 11.77% 1
Greenville, SC (CSA) 1,264,930 1,128,104 12.13%
Richmond, VA (MSA) 1,238,187 1,096,957 12.87%
New Orleans, LA (CSA) 1,235,650 1,360,436 -9.17% 1 1
Buffalo, NY (CSA) 1,203,493 1,254,066 -4.03% 1 1
Birmingham, AL (CSA) 1,212,848 1,129,721 7.36%
Albany, NY (CSA) 1,151,653 1,118,095 3.00%
Rochester, NY (CSA) 1,127,483 1,131,543 -0.36%
as a state, connecticut is still below 3 'hockey' states without teams in washington, wisconsin, and oregon. Obviously wisconsin can be served by the blackhawks, wild, and maybe even red wings on tv, but that still leaves a much more lucrative pacific northwest region.

connecticut itself is already served by new york teams. A new team in connecticut wouldnt draw from out of state as those interests are already served by new york teams and new england (boston) teams.

connecticut is SHRINKING.

hartford is way down on the list of cities without an NHL team, and though it is still growing, it's smaller than grand rapids michigan and growing at a slower rate. Obviously corporate support in hartford dwarfs grand rapids, but this is still a gate-driven league, and will transition into a tv-contract driven league.


houston and atlanta are both non-conventional markets and blocked by NBA teams control of the arena (and atlanta has already failed twice). After that, seattle is the glaringly obvious choice for a new US team. It's in a region underserved by the NHL, is in a timezone underserved by the NHL, and while some may argue it would be an oversaturated market as a 5-team city, Minneapolis-St. Paul and Denver make it work.

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Last edited by danishh: 02-04-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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02-04-2013, 05:07 PM
  #40
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Raliegh Cary has 1.1 million people. How is hartford any worse raleigh.

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02-04-2013, 05:15 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Raliegh Cary has 1.1 million people. How is hartford any worse raleigh.
growth rates, state populations and growth rates, and out-of state competition (raleigh gets all of the carolinas to itself more or less, hartford would have connecticut and that's it.

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02-04-2013, 05:18 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Raliegh Cary has 1.1 million people. How is hartford any worse raleigh.
#1 Raleigh is usually combined as Raleigh/Durham, or the "triangle" of Raleigh/Durham/Cary, which has 1.8 million people.

#2 Raleigh has no pro sports competition (Bobcats and Panthers play in Charlotte, a couple hours away).

On Hartford' side however is that it is a traditional hockey market, unlike Raliegh...

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02-04-2013, 05:23 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Yukon Joe View Post
#1 Raleigh is usually combined as Raleigh/Durham, or the "triangle" of Raleigh/Durham/Cary, which has 1.8 million people.

#2 Raleigh has no pro sports competition (Bobcats and Panthers play in Charlotte, a couple hours away).

On Hartford' side however is that it is a traditional hockey market, unlike Raliegh...
And there's over 1.9 Mil within 30 minutes of Hartford. 3.2 Mil within an hour of the XL Center.

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02-04-2013, 05:36 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
Obviously wisconsin can be served by the blackhawks, wild, and maybe even red wings on tv, but that still leaves a much more lucrative pacific northwest region.
Only the Wild and for 30-40 games a year only if you have digital cable.

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02-04-2013, 07:48 PM
  #45
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Connecticut is still one of the richer states and that is why I think an NHL team can make it there!

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02-04-2013, 08:26 PM
  #46
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Wouldn't moving the Islanders to CT, offset the issue of competition with NYC, it would seem like the move would make sense on some level, as it would be keeping the islanders in the same region.

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02-05-2013, 06:02 AM
  #47
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Maybe, but it's not gonna happen.

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02-05-2013, 06:33 AM
  #48
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Karmanos is obviously a villain in CT and I don't blame Whalers fans for bashing him, but he isn't a "slimy owner" and certainly not by NHL standards.
Not to rain on your parade but he isn't the most well liked guy in his own hometown in Detroit. The word slimy is thrown around quite a bit especially with how he handles his dealings with Compuware.

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02-05-2013, 09:10 AM
  #49
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And there's over 1.9 Mil within 30 minutes of Hartford. 3.2 Mil within an hour of the XL Center.
That's nice. Add an hour radius to the Raleigh-Durham-Cary CSA and you add in the Triad's CSA, the Greensboro-Winston-Salem-High Point CSA and it's 1.6 Mil (and growing) population. That's 3.4 Million by my math. Hardly megalopolis, but hardly the podunk some try to make it out to be.


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02-05-2013, 09:29 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto View Post
That's nice. Add an hour radius to the Raleigh-Durham-Cary CSA and you add in the Triad's CSA, the Greensboro-Winston-Salem-High Point CSA and it's 1.6 Mil (and growing) population. That's 3.4 Million by my math. Hardly megalopolis, but hardly the podunk some try to make it out to be.
And then Hartford is 2 hours from NY and Boston by train. Raleigh does not have anything like that.

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