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02-04-2013, 11:56 AM
  #276
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
For Schneiderman, I want a Top 4 Defenceman or a Top 6 Forward + Backup Goalie + Prospect/Pick.

If you can't supply a backup goalie, that's fine.
We'll see in the off-season when the Nucks have over 9m in cap tied up in goaltending and no cap-space to burn

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02-04-2013, 12:39 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Rask is the only real comparable....someone both young and able to duel one of the best goalies in the league for a starting position.

Plus we have 1 too many starters already. So...we'd give much, much less then even someone one starter.

Having seen Rask in action, if we needed a goalie, well I personally would surrender quite a bit.

As for Halak, everyone still calls that a comparable, but it's not. Montreal couldn't afford both at the time he was traded, and both goalies were roughly the same age and Halak was unsigned.
Rask is the better goalie. There isn't a single team in the league that would rather have Schneider as a starter than Rask.

Halak was unsigned at the time of the trade, but he was a RFA with multiple RFA years left. That's arguably more valuable than a signed player, as you have ownership to their rights until they become a UFA plus you get to negotiate your own deal. Halak was also 24 at the time of the trade.

Halak is a very good comparable. The numbers and experience were similar, with the slight edge there going to Halak for his amazing playoff run.

Halak was traded for a very similar value to Varlamov. That's a ~10 overall pick plus a 2nd/3rd. Varlamov, Schneider, and Halak all have very similar values.

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02-04-2013, 01:15 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by leeroggy View Post
How about something like this:

Schneider to the Isles

for

Josh Bailey
Anders Nilsson
Scott Mayfield

You get a second/third line winger that fits right in to your lineup, an excellent goalie prospect and one of our top defense prospects with size and snarl (right now he is at Denver University).

Does this package fit?
How about

Vancouver
Nino Niederreiter
Josh Bailey

NYI
Cory Schneider

I honestly have no interest in Nilsson and Mayfield

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02-04-2013, 01:20 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Rask is the better goalie. There isn't a single team in the league that would rather have Schneider as a starter than Rask.
I call BS on that. You have nothing to substantiate that, that's your opinion.

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02-04-2013, 01:27 PM
  #280
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Let's call it as it is. The canucks have no starter goalie. Luongo and Schnieder are both backup goalies to each other. As it is not unusual to have more then one backup goalie, we can keep them both.


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02-04-2013, 01:31 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I call BS on that. You have nothing to substantiate that, that's your opinion.
I wouldn't go as far to say every GM would pick Rask>Schneider...but those 2 goalies are pretty damn close skill-wise.

I don't think anyone can definitively say who is better at this point...

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02-04-2013, 01:40 PM
  #282
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The value talk is interesting, but I'm with Bob- no way Vancouver does this.

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie
Oh, yeah, for conspiracy theorists, WSH isn't talking to VAN, has no plans to talk to VAN on any goalie. BTW, VAN isn't trading Schneider.

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02-04-2013, 01:50 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I wouldn't go as far to say every GM would pick Rask>Schneider...but those 2 goalies are pretty damn close skill-wise.

I don't think anyone can definitively say who is better at this point...
It's Rask...It's that extra little bit of experience Rask that is the difference maker. Also, Rask has confidently stepped into the #1 position, which Schneider is floundering. I know it's early in the season, but that is going to affect value.

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02-04-2013, 01:55 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
It's Rask...It's that extra little bit of experience Rask that is the difference maker. Also, Rask has confidently stepped into the #1 position, which Schneider is floundering. I know it's early in the season, but that is going to affect value.
Schneider isn't floundering...he's just plain being outplayed by currently the second best goalie in the league.

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02-04-2013, 01:55 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
It's Rask...It's that extra little bit of experience Rask that is the difference maker. Also, Rask has confidently stepped into the #1 position, which Schneider is floundering. I know it's early in the season, but that is going to affect value.
Boston also isn't missing Bergeron and Marchand (I guess they may be missing Marchand now).

You are flip-flopping on 'value' vs who is 'better'....

Rask is battling Anton Khudobin for crease time, Schneider is battling one of the best goalies of his generation.

Rask didn't seem to do so well establishing himself in 2010-2011 when he got the reins, did he?

Anti-Canuck bias is what it is....

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02-04-2013, 02:01 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Boston also isn't missing Bergeron and Marchand (I guess they may be missing Marchand now).

You are flip-flopping on 'value' vs who is 'better'....

Rask is battling Anton Khudobin for crease time, Schneider is battling one of the best goalies of his generation.

Rask didn't seem to do so well establishing himself in 2010-2011 when he got the reins, did he?

Anti-Canuck bias is what it is....
Rask's numbers in 2010/11 were fine, and much better than Schneider's current stats. It's also not me flip/flopping on value and who is better, I am exclusively stating value. Noone can ever really truly know who is better. We can only look at results. Right now Rask has better results and higher value.

It's not in anyway anti-Canucks bias. Like I said before Schneider is a much better comparable to Halak and Varlamov, when they wer traded. While Rask has gone that step further.

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02-04-2013, 02:04 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Rask's numbers in 2010/11 were fine, and much better than Schneider's current stats. It's also not me flip/flopping on value and who is better, I am exclusively stating value. Noone can ever really truly know who is better. We can only look at results. Right now Rask has better results and higher value.

It's not in anyway anti-Canucks bias. Like I said before Schneider is a much better comparable to Halak and Varlamov, when they wer traded. While Rask has gone that step further.
Colorado offered the 11th overall pick for Schneider in 2011. I'd say his value has gone up significantly since then.

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02-04-2013, 02:07 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Colorado offered the 11th overall pick for Schneider in 2011. I'd say his value has gone up significantly since then.
Link?

There were rumours that Colorado might want to trade their 11th pick for a potential starting goalie, and Schneider was a target. I've never seen anything that shows that a straight 1 for 1 deal was offered.

Edit: Also the 11th overall pick in 2011 was pretty weak. The current 11th overall is worth considreably more.

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02-04-2013, 02:07 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Rask's numbers in 2010/11 were fine, and much better than Schneider's current stats. It's also not me flip/flopping on value and who is better, I am exclusively stating value. Noone can ever really truly know who is better. We can only look at results. Right now Rask has better results and higher value.

It's not in anyway anti-Canucks bias. Like I said before Schneider is a much better comparable to Halak and Varlamov, when they wer traded. While Rask has gone that step further.
You posted this:
Quote:
Rask is the better goalie. There isn't a single team in the league that would rather have Schneider as a starter than Rask.
OK. Sorry for the bias claim, for a non-Canuck fan you're in a lot of these discussions.

2010-2011 Rask was given the starting nod to start the season, he also played the playoff games to end 2009-2010, he didn't cease the opportunity....the story is almost playing out exactly the same in Vancouver this season, doesn't mean Rask was never going to be good enough to start, or that Schneider isn't, its that the veteran goalie didn't concede the net very easily.

Doesn't mean the young incumbent is a poor player....just the old dog is ready to roll over.

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02-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
You posted this:

OK. Sorry for the bias claim, for a non-Canuck fan you're in a lot of these discussions.

2010-2011 Rask was given the starting nod to start the season, he also played the playoff games to end 2009-2010, he didn't cease the opportunity....the story is almost playing out exactly the same in Vancouver this season, doesn't mean Rask was never going to be good enough to start, or that Schneider isn't, its that the veteran goalie didn't concede the net very easily.

Doesn't mean the young incumbent is a poor player....just the old dog is ready to roll over.
1) Rask was much younger at the time of the goalie controversy in Boston. Rask has since recovered.

2) Rask put up better numbers at that point.

If Schneider is able to recover through the remainder of the season and then solidify his #1 job next season, then, yes, I'd agree the value would be the same. Right now Schneider hasn't done either.

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02-04-2013, 02:20 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
1) Rask was much younger at the time of the goalie controversy in Boston. Rask has since recovered.

2) Rask put up better numbers at that point.

If Schneider is able to recover through the remainder of the season and then solidify his #1 job next season, then, yes, I'd agree the value would be the same. Right now Schneider hasn't done either.
1)Age is a number, circumstances are similar.

2)Rask's #'s behind Thomas and the staunch Bruin team defense last year aren't any better.

The last two season's Schneider has played more games than Rask. Their #'s are similar, I don't think you could say Rask's are better.

Rask's starts went down 3 years running leading into this year (now he has NO competition for starts, he's the defacto #1). Schneider's are rising, and this 'circus' is completely different than the one in Boston.

I'd say these two goalies are closer than you are willing to admit, and both have lots to prove.

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02-04-2013, 02:20 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Link?

There were rumours that Colorado might want to trade their 11th pick for a potential starting goalie, and Schneider was a target. I've never seen anything that shows that a straight 1 for 1 deal was offered.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/wi...3.html?refer=y

Quote:
Colorado: Wants to keep the No. 2 pick but would trade No. 11. Looking for a goaltender (maybe Jonathan Bernier or Cory Schneider).
I can't show you clear proof that they offered it, as it's virtually impossible to do that for a trade that didn't go through.

Quote:
Edit: Also the 11th overall pick in 2011 was pretty weak. The current 11th overall is worth considreably more.
What makes you an expert on how one draft compares to another? Players drafted around that slot include Sean Couturier, Dougie Hamilton, Jonas Brodin, Duncan Siemens, Ryan Murphy, and Sven Baertschi. Not exactly "weak". And of course, Schneider himself is worth a lot more now than he was then.

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02-04-2013, 02:25 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
We'll see in the off-season when the Nucks have over 9m in cap tied up in goaltending and no cap-space to burn
Our cap situation is fine and we can/will dump players to accommodate Luongo's cap hit if necessary.

thanks for your concern though

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
It's Rask...It's that extra little bit of experience Rask that is the difference maker. Also, Rask has confidently stepped into the #1 position, which Schneider is floundering. I know it's early in the season, but that is going to affect value.
One bad game is hardly floundering, his stats are quite good aside from the first game.

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02-04-2013, 02:28 PM
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
It's Rask...It's that extra little bit of experience Rask that is the difference maker. Also, Rask has confidently stepped into the #1 position, which Schneider is floundering. I know it's early in the season, but that is going to affect value.
the guy is 2-2 with a shutout. how is he floundering? He has had one bad game and then a game against the current league leading team. he got hung out to dry early by terrible giveaways in that one but was otherwise fine.

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02-04-2013, 02:30 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
http://www.startribune.com/sports/wi...3.html?refer=y



I can't show you clear proof that they offered it, as it's virtually impossible to do that for a trade that didn't go through.



What makes you an expert on how one draft compares to another? Players drafted around that slot include Sean Couturier, Dougie Hamilton, Jonas Brodin, Duncan Siemens, Ryan Murphy, and Sven Baertschi. Not exactly "weak". And of course, Schneider himself is worth a lot more now than he was then.

So are you saying the upcomming 2013 draft is not deeper than the 2011 one? Really? It's a pretty universal opinion.

Also, once again, you don't know what was and what wasn't offered. Although a straight up swap isn't totally unlikely. Schneider's value is in the 10-15 rage. If he kills it this season, he could push that up, but it could also slide if his play continues to be poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
Our cap situation is fine and we can/will dump players to accommodate Luongo's cap hit if necessary.

thanks for your concern though



One bad game is hardly floundering, his stats are quite good aside from the first game.
He's had 2 bad games out of 4 games played.

And no you cannot afford to keep both goalies beyond this season without gutting the rest of the team.

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02-04-2013, 02:32 PM
  #296
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He didn't have a bad game against San Jose. Keep reaching, see how far those ideas can stretch.

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02-04-2013, 02:37 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
He's had 2 bad games out of 4 games played.

And no you cannot afford to keep both goalies beyond this season without gutting the rest of the team.
OK.

It's anti-canuck bias now.

You really think he was poor in San Jose? 2 point blank give aways from Edler and Garrison in the 1st 5 minutes, a PP goal on missed coverage with the hottest goal scorer in the league in front of the net, I can't recall the 4th goal but I sort of remember it being a PP in which it was a pretty legit NHL goal. Oh well, I now know my first thoughts about you were true...

Anaheim game was bad, that was it.

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02-04-2013, 02:40 PM
  #298
Vankiller Whale
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So are you saying the upcomming 2013 draft is not deeper than the 2011 one? Really? It's a pretty universal opinion.
Deeper means that there are more potential impact players later in the draft. But a ~10th overall pick is still high enough that it will be very close. Compare Couturier, Hamilton, Brodin, Siemens, Murphy, and Baertschi with say, Ristolainen, Shinkaruk, Domi, Pulock, and Zadorov, and it doesn't seem that the 2013 picks are "significantly better" than the 2011 ones. Later in the draft, it's no contest though. Look at 2003. The equivalent picks were Coburn, Phaneuf, Kostitsyn, Carter, and Hugh Jessiman. Depth doesn't mean better quality early in the draft.

Quote:
Also, once again, you don't know what was and what wasn't offered. Although a straight up swap isn't totally unlikely. Schneider's value is in the 10-15 rage. If he kills it this season, he could push that up, but it could also slide if his play continues to be poor.

Schneider's value was likely a 10-15th overall pick a year ago. Since then he's vastly improved his numbers and briefly stole the starters job over Roberto Luongo in the playoffs.

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02-04-2013, 02:41 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
He's had 2 bad games out of 4 games played.
2 games? Are you refering to the San Jose game? You obviously didn't watch it if you think Schneider played badly.
Quote:
And no you cannot afford to keep both goalies beyond this season without gutting the rest of the team.
We can keep both goalies, we have contracts expiring and can dump players if necessary, if you look on the Canucks' board you will find plenty of worked out lineups that a cap compliant

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02-04-2013, 02:47 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Schneider isn't floundering...he's just plain being outplayed by currently the second best goalie in the league.
While Luongo is definitely on fire right now, Schenider is definitely floundering, unless you consider a 3.13 GAA and .897 SV% par for the course with him?

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