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rate Stafford's season out of 10 so far this year.

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Old
02-04-2013, 03:14 PM
  #51
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Is stafford a serious buyout candidate? We get two, leino and stafford would clear 9.5 mil off our books

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02-04-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
keep dodging the simple question
What? It's a legit question. Are you basing it off a 48 game season or a 82 game season? A $4 million flat for 82 games or $4 million for 48 games meaning a prorated number. I want to make sure we're on the same Page here.

If you're basing it off 82 games I'd say 25g-30/35a - 55/60 pts should be about right for a guy getting 2nd line minutes and playing on the PP and some PK.

Last year he finished off the last 15 games at over a point per game. The other 65 he was like a half of a point per game.

My issue with him and just about everyone on this roster is the unbalanced scoring and inconsistencies.

I know it's not feasible for guys to score every game, or every other game but I don't think we need to talk about how it's great that a guy went scoreless in 45-50 games a season either.

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02-04-2013, 03:33 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
I can't believe that a few in here are rating stafford better than 5.

He has done nothing so far his fight aside. 3 assists and a -7 are pretty bad. he should be our second best goalscorer behind vanek but the truth at the moment is that even sulzer has mor goals than drew.
317 players in the NHL including have more goals than Drew Stafford.

217 players have more points.

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02-04-2013, 03:54 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S319R11S16 View Post
What? It's a legit question. Are you basing it off a 48 game season or a 82 game season? A $4 million flat for 82 games or $4 million for 48 games meaning a prorated number. I want to make sure we're on the same Page here.

If you're basing it off 82 games I'd say 25g-30/35a - 55/60 pts should be about right for a guy getting 2nd line minutes and playing on the PP and some PK.

Last year he finished off the last 15 games at over a point per game. The other 65 he was like a half of a point per game.

My issue with him and just about everyone on this roster is the unbalanced scoring and inconsistencies.

I know it's not feasible for guys to score every game, or every other game but I don't think we need to talk about how it's great that a guy went scoreless in 45-50 games a season either.
Thanks for answering. So besides Staffords 2010/11 season (62g, 52 pts.) he has never been worth the $4 million. Am I understanding your position correctly?

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02-04-2013, 03:54 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Is stafford a serious buyout candidate? We get two, leino and stafford would clear 9.5 mil off our books
No. The guy scored 51 goals over the previous two seasons. (I know, Buffalo, career years don't count.)

People in here are acting like he's going to continue shooting 0-for-25 every nine games, even though his career shooting% is over 10%. When Stafford is on the ice, opponent goaltenders' SV% is .968. That is utterly unsustainable. When that number starts creeping back toward league average (.917, approx.)--just like when VHP stop shooting their unsustainable percentage--Ennis, Stafford, et al. will start scoring more points.

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02-04-2013, 03:58 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by S319R11S16 View Post
317 players in the NHL including have more goals than Drew Stafford.

217 players have more points.
9-game sample size. I get that this thread is about his performance to date, but it's stupid to be discussing this stuff so early.

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02-04-2013, 04:00 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
9-game sample size. I get that this thread is about his performance to date, but it's stupid to be discussing this stuff so early.
Stupid to be discussing? No.

Stupid to be making conclusions about his season? Yes.

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02-04-2013, 04:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
9-game sample size. I get that this thread is about his performance to date, but it's stupid to be discussing this stuff so early.
That's over 17% of the season

When exactly can we start discussing this?


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02-04-2013, 04:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
no goals, 3 assits and -7...

you want to rate him? Besides his fight, what has he done? He's being bumped around from line to line, with no success.

Stafford is "the" guy who should be right behind 26 & 29 on the stat list. How is it possible that the rookie on "his" line is outscoring him, and is more noticable on the ice????

He doesn't give 100%. The way the season is going, Stafford is the guy who should be the sacraficial lamb and be dealt. Year after year, we have the same conversation. Time to move him.

He gets a 1 from me, only because he dropped the gloves the first game.
Just started reading and liked this post. Wanted to add a couple more points to this:

- rarely if ever has a secondary thought. Shoot first mentality.
- majority of his shots taken are the 50 degree and under variety. So 0 goals shouldnt be a surprise.
- Kotalik 2.0

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02-04-2013, 04:57 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corto View Post
Whatever, my stat-doing days are numbered, I can't be arsed to dissect it all anymore...
Few years ago I'd open up Excel, 4 different Tabs and I'd look for LWs playing as RWs, RWs who missed games, etc.
In my opinion, he's not an above-average 2nd line forward. Let's leave it at that.
(he is, however, good enough to take advantage of linemates playing enough, which just might be good enough on a good team for deep playoff runs)

I'll say this, at no point this season did I think Stafford was going to score a goal.
He looks completely inept in the offensive zone. And for a guy being paid 4m and relied upon as the main force for secondary scoring, he's done absolutely nothing through 9 games.
This all day. Lacks creativity. Zero one on one skills and his propensity for bad angle shoots, call into question his hockey IQ. These shots end offensive zone possessions. #SeeHecht.

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02-04-2013, 05:10 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Woodhouse View Post
Stafford finished -5 in the last three games with no points, which, if you have a problem with his +/-, it's mostly because of these games... so I took a closer look and think he may be closer to a 4-4.5 at the moment than my previous rating of 6. I didn't particularly like the results I saw from the Ott-Stafford PK unit in these games either.

Thu 1/31 @ BOS, W 7-4, 0 P, -2, 2 SOG, 17:15 TOI:
  • GA#2: Marchand undresses Myers then Leopold to score; cannot fault Stafford here, but he takes the minus anyway.
  • GA#3: Stafford fails to put it hard around the boards as a BOS forward steps in front of Leopold and directs the puck into slot; after a shot, rebound and pass, comes another Marchand shot and goal; flame away about his failed defensive zone clearance.
  • What doesn't show up? A scoring chance after Seguin whistles one wide at our end, where he recovers the puck, passes it ahead and joins the counter, with Rask saving his left circle wrister. He also had set up another scoring chance as he wrapped around the net and found Ott in the slot for the one-timer, but again Rask saved. He also was a part of the PP unit that scored on Vanek's set play redirect.

Sat 2/2 @ MTL, L 1-6, 0 P, -1, 3 SOG, 14:53 TOI:
  • GA#1: No minus for Stafford as it comes on the PK with Ott, but a lengthy stretch pass catches Ehrhoff-Sulzer sleeping and it's a tap-in at the crease for Bourque; not much Stafford could do different here, not to blame.
  • GA#4: Galchenyuk is allowed the middle of the ice between a triangle of Sabres, as Leopold steps in, the puck kicks out to a free Eller who drives it to the net for the goal; Stafford doesn't track or follow Eller and you can flame him for his coverage here.
  • GA#6: No minus for Stafford as it comes on the PK with Ott, but a Subban point-shot gets past Stafford and Weber and through to Enroth; Eller beats Enroth to the loose puck, kicking it out to Desharnais at the side of the net for the tap-in; meh, I'd praise Eller for getting to the puck before Enroth froze it, but I suppose you could find someone to blame for not blocking either shot attempt.
  • What doesn't show up? An ES chance after Price turns it over to Leopold at the left point, who then finds Stafford in the right circle, but his SOG is saved by a sliding Price and then Hodgson can't find the rebound. This was a goal the Sabres needed to have down 2-0 early in the second.

Sun 2/3 vs FLA, L 3-4, 0 P, -2, 1 SOG, 17:45 TOI:
  • GA#2: Stafford is screening Theodore as Sulzer possesses puck, but Sulzer gets his pocket picked and with Foligno covering for him at the point, the rush is handled poorly from the get go; Parros ultimately scores on the counter as Ennis can't make the backcheck; nothing to fault Stafford here.
  • GA#3: The FLA shot that bounces off the end boards is not his problem, as Myers and Grigorenko/Ehrhoff have the lax coverage.
  • GA#4: No minus for Stafford as it comes on the PK with Ott, but neither Stafford nor Sulzer can get to the puck before Campbell buries it at the side of the net; Stafford's man comes down from point to score, so he deserves some blame here.
  • What doesn't show up? His set up of Myers at the point for a slapper, but neither Grigorenko nor Ott could find the rebound and score.
Great writeup. I bolded two parts to emphasize my point that he is goalless primarily due to his poor shot selection. The shots he takes I have only seen one person on this team make and he currently leads the league in scoring. And we all know Staff is no Vanek. So I ask, what or who is Staff? Offensively? My answer right now is a physical version of Kotalik. The Kotalik that went to his spot and waited for a pass. Received the pass, bad angle shot. No pass, no contribution.

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02-04-2013, 05:14 PM
  #62
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Some of you are really reaching for a gold star/blue ribbon to give the guy as far as physicality goes. He may be skating into guys along the board more than the rest of the soft team is but how many times has he set the tempo of the game doing it? How many plays has he broken up hitting? I don't think anyone in the NHL is going into a game against Buffalo dreading 210 lbs of Drew Stafford gently coasting into them. The physical Hockey Stafford plays is exactly why our head coach thinks that hitting doesn't win games. Because the way that Drew Stafford chooses to be physical doesn't. When Stafford plays physical it's the same as when he doesn't meaning it's not an effective part of his game.

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02-04-2013, 05:16 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Thanks for answering. So besides Staffords 2010/11 season (62g, 52 pts.) he has never been worth the $4 million. Am I understanding your position correctly?
Am I on the stand or something? You're questioning me like a lawyer.

Anyways, he's on a new contract. One that is paying him to be a pretty good amount to be a goal scorer and 2nd line player. IMO for him to be worth that money it shouldn't be too much to expect 25 goals and about 55 to 60 points. He gets enough ice time that this shouldn't be a problem.

To me it's not even about point total its about being consistent or even semi consistent. Something he has never been. A 2nd line player shouldn't have problems putting up points in over half the games throughout the season. He's a former 1st round pick. He had his share of time with Vanek in the past and was inconsistent then too.

My biggest gripe with him and most of the players on this team since 07 is the lack of leadership and goal scoring when we need a goal.

$4 million might be more or less than the league average for a 2nd line player I'm not sure but If a dude is going to be re-signed and given an opportunity to log 18-20 minutes a game at even strength and the power play, he better be able to put up points.

At $4 million bucks his lack of scoring is inexcusable.

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02-04-2013, 05:35 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
no goals, 3 assits and -7...

you want to rate him? Besides his fight, what has he done? He's being bumped around from line to line, with no success.

Stafford is "the" guy who should be right behind 26 & 29 on the stat list. How is it possible that the rookie on "his" line is outscoring him, and is more noticable on the ice????

He doesn't give 100%. The way the season is going, Stafford is the guy who should be the sacraficial lamb and be dealt. Year after year, we have the same conversation. Time to move him.

He gets a 1 from me, only because he dropped the gloves the first game.

My thoughts exactly.

I NEVER was a fan of this guy.

His time is up. Move him out.

It's a shame Burke is gone from Toronto. Darcy could have got a lot for this good ol American boy.

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02-04-2013, 05:38 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by slowgothemo View Post
Just started reading and liked this post. Wanted to add a couple more points to this:

- rarely if ever has a secondary thought. Shoot first mentality.
- majority of his shots taken are the 50 degree and under variety. So 0 goals shouldnt be a surprise.
- Kotalik 2.0
NO WAY.

Big Al was money on those 5 on 3's with that one timer. He'd even have a goal or two right now.

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02-04-2013, 05:41 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Vito_81 View Post
My thoughts exactly.

I NEVER was a fan of this guy.

His time is up. Move him out.

It's a shame Burke is gone from Toronto. Darcy could have got a lot for this good ol American boy.
The thing that annoys me the most about Stafford is how cocky this guy is. He thinks he is the greatest.

Did he even do anything during the lockout?

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02-04-2013, 05:56 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by S319R11S16 View Post
Am I on the stand or something? You're questioning me like a lawyer.

Anyways, he's on a new contract. One that is paying him to be a pretty good amount to be a goal scorer and 2nd line player. IMO for him to be worth that money it shouldn't be too much to expect 25 goals and about 55 to 60 points. He gets enough ice time that this shouldn't be a problem.

To me it's not even about point total its about being consistent or even semi consistent. Something he has never been. A 2nd line player shouldn't have problems putting up points in over half the games throughout the season. He's a former 1st round pick. He had his share of time with Vanek in the past and was inconsistent then too.

My biggest gripe with him and most of the players on this team since 07 is the lack of leadership and goal scoring when we need a goal.

$4 million might be more or less than the league average for a 2nd line player I'm not sure but If a dude is going to be re-signed and given an opportunity to log 18-20 minutes a game at even strength and the power play, he better be able to put up points.

At $4 million bucks his lack of scoring is inexcusable.

No, you're not on the stand. I just wanted to be crystal clear why you attached salary with production and your personal "limit" of pay vs. production. I personally never took to Stafford. I can't really explain why, but if he was making league minimum I still wouldn't care for Stafford. Even during his "big year" I just couldn't get on board with the Stafford love. I can appreciate his talent and effort. I just never cared for him

When it comes to my views of pay vs. production, I look it like this. It's not my money. More power to those that can fleece ownership of unearned paydays. And if it hurts the team from signing other players due to salary cap, that's on the GM and owners.

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02-04-2013, 06:00 PM
  #68
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There's a couple guys here who want to throw stats around, and defend Drew, making straw man arguments he's above-average, and scores at the going rate for $4M, but the bottom line is if he's a DIFFERENCE MAKER. Piling on goals in a win, and getting hat-tricks when ya actually feel like playing DON'T WIN GAMES. He's paid good money to help this team win games. THAT'S the bottom line. He's notoriously inconsistent doing it in the past(FACT), and he's not even that so far this season. Keep dreaming that it's gonna balance out when his shooting% goes up, but guess what? Our season will be toast by then, and he'll be sitting out of the playoffs AGAIN, but $4M richer.

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02-04-2013, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
So you can't give me numbers? What point production is worth $4 million in the NHL in 2013?
20-25-45 in an 82-game season, give or take a couple.

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02-04-2013, 06:35 PM
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20-25-45 in an 82-game season, give or take a couple.
Arbitrary number don't always equate to helping a team win games. Don't be pulled into that 'lawyers mentality' trap. Stafford is supposed to be a guy who is important in getting us to the post-season. He's not accomplishing that. He was great with FES last year, but that isn't working this year, and he's back to the same old Drew.

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02-04-2013, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
No, you're not on the stand. I just wanted to be crystal clear why you attached salary with production and your personal "limit" of pay vs. production. I personally never took to Stafford. I can't really explain why, but if he was making league minimum I still wouldn't care for Stafford. Even during his "big year" I just couldn't get on board with the Stafford love. I can appreciate his talent and effort. I just never cared for him

When it comes to my views of pay vs. production, I look it like this. It's not my money. More power to those that can fleece ownership of unearned paydays. And if it hurts the team from signing other players due to salary cap, that's on the GM and owners.
Sounds like were in the same understanding then.

I get a little more personal regarding $ because it keeps us from spending that money elsewhere. I guess maybe its reaction to the Golisano years of penny pinching. I dunno. Its different now with Pegulas money, i know that but production vs $ is something that always gets to me.

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02-04-2013, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by S319R11S16 View Post
Sounds like were in the same understanding then.

I get a little more personal regarding $ because it keeps us from spending that money elsewhere. I guess maybe its reaction to the Golisano years of penny pinching. I dunno. Its different now with Pegulas money, i know that but production vs $ is something that always gets to me.
With a shrinking cap, who you spend your money on is going to become VERY important. Everyone was under the notion it would keep rising, and are now slamming on the brakes. It will mean more parity, and if you're not getting bang for the buck from your players, you won't be winning much.

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02-04-2013, 06:51 PM
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With a shrinking cap, who you spend your money on is going to become VERY important. Everyone was under the notion it would keep rising, and are now slamming on the brakes. It will mean more parity, and if you're not getting bang for the buck from your players, you won't be winning much.
Didn't add that in but we'll said.

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02-04-2013, 07:09 PM
  #74
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There's a bigger issue here that hasn't been mentioned much, if at all. First thing is that FES was able to match-up as a "3rd" line last season, after the opponent prioritized the Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp line and then the Leino-Roy-Pominville line. This season a true 2nd scoring line is not being iced by Ruff, whether from Grigs not being ready to fill in for Roy or Leino being out, or just simply from insisting on going with the robo VHP line.

That means FES has been assigned by opponents as the "2nd" line, and face tougher match-ups that they (primarily Ennis) is not ready for. Second, Ennis is getting crushed at the dot and giving up possession time for the whole line. Third, Ennis has been Roy-eske by too much dangle and not enough to-the-net mentality. I understand this adjustment because the dangle worked like a charm against his assignments last season. Ennis simply either is not capable as a true 2nd line C, or needs more time to learn. While this learning stage carries on, Foligno and Stafford will suffer. Stafford has been doing everything else right except producing, but he needs a puck in a good spot to do that, and Ennis has not been able to get one there yet.

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02-04-2013, 07:41 PM
  #75
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There's a bigger issue here that hasn't been mentioned much, if at all. First thing is that FES was able to match-up as a "3rd" line last season, after the opponent prioritized the Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp line and then the Leino-Roy-Pominville line. This season a true 2nd scoring line is not being iced by Ruff, whether from Grigs not being ready to fill in for Roy or Leino being out, or just simply from insisting on going with the robo VHP line.

That means FES has been assigned by opponents as the "2nd" line, and face tougher match-ups that they (primarily Ennis) is not ready for. Second, Ennis is getting crushed at the dot and giving up possession time for the whole line. Third, Ennis has been Roy-eske by too much dangle and not enough to-the-net mentality. I understand this adjustment because the dangle worked like a charm against his assignments last season. Ennis simply either is not capable as a true 2nd line C, or needs more time to learn. While this learning stage carries on, Foligno and Stafford will suffer. Stafford has been doing everything else right except producing, but he needs a puck in a good spot to do that, and Ennis has not been able to get one there yet.
I'm sorry, I have to be a wise guy so......

"So what you're saying, Stafford is an overpaid, third liner?"


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