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Old
02-03-2013, 12:09 PM
  #26
Telos
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Doesn't help that he hadn't played in a NHL game in over 10 months. I'd give him more than a couple of periods before I say his potential as a starter is over. Bernier HAS stepped up for us in the past. I don't know why people are saying otherwise. He was stellar and kept us in things when Quick left to attend the birth of his child, and he was fine last season. These past two years have been good for him statistically.

I am not saying Bernier is all that great or will live up to his potential, but people were on Murray to play Bernier more, and last season he only saw 16 games of action, not all of them starts. The kid needs to play more. One game every month and a half is pretty ridiculous.

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02-03-2013, 12:29 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I'm having flashbacks of Jamie Storr... I don't see how Bernier has earned anything. He has to step up in whatever limited action he sees. He has failed to do that for years now. Remember, that's why Quick was called up in the first play ahead of Bernier.
Bernier was almost primarily responsible for leading the Kings to their first playoff appearance in about 10 years. He had to step in and play solid against teams like Nashville down the stretch. He netted us 10 extra points. He also picked up his play at the end of last season.

So this notion that Bernier doesn't step up is inaccurate.

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02-03-2013, 12:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
Bernier was almost primarily responsible for leading the Kings to their first playoff appearance in about 10 years. He had to step in and play solid against teams like Nashville down the stretch. He netted us 10 extra points. He also picked up his play at the end of last season.

So this notion that Bernier doesn't step up is inaccurate.


Bernier was primarily responsible for the Kings 46-27-9 record in 2009-10? You are being ridiculous now and making things up. Bernier appeared in 3 games for the Kings that season.

I'm going to guess you're talking about 2010-11 where he appeared in 25 games. Bernier started that season terribly and had a horrible first half, surrendering more than 4 goals on 5 separate occasions. His play picked up in the latter half of the season. So I can't figure out how anyone can conclude that Bernier was primarily responsible for getting the Kings into the playoffs that season. He had an inconsistent season, and he has performed inconsistently throughout his career.

I'm just not sold on him being a bonafide #1 starter in this league. I'm being reminded of Jamie Storr because there were similar arguments for him. Similar history of hype leading up to the NHL, but inconsistent performances prevented Storr from becoming the player he was hyped up to be, and it isn't a stretch to say that he may not be the starting goaltender so many thought he would become.

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02-03-2013, 12:50 PM
  #29
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I'd suspect Dean Lombardi knows what he is talking about, and he discussed this topic just a few weeks ago: http://mayorsmanor.com/2013/01/dean-...-too-valuable/

When asked about the possibility of trading Bernier:

Quote:
“I don’t think that’s feasible at all right now. He’s an important part of this team. Let’s face it, our guys in the minors aren’t ready for that role. And that’s an important role. Like Darryl [Sutter] says, with all these games back-to-back and stuff – hey, a number two starter in baseball is pretty important and that’s the way a goaltender is. (So), I don’t see how that’s possible. He’s too important to us.”
Quote:
“Even more so. I think the guy was really underestimated, maybe because of the volume he’s played. But, if you look at the games he’s won for us the last two years, to get us in the playoffs – he’s shown he can go in under not the best of circumstances and get it done in some tough buildings.”

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02-03-2013, 01:08 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telos View Post
I'd suspect Dean Lombardi knows what he is talking about, and he discussed this topic just a few weeks ago: http://mayorsmanor.com/2013/01/dean-...-too-valuable/

When asked about the possibility of trading Bernier:
This ^.

DL and co hold JB in high enough regard to trust in his abilities. They can make a change if they feel any differently but it doesn't look like they do. JB is an exceptional young talent, that's all I see in him.

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02-03-2013, 02:10 PM
  #31
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Gonna have to call Dean out on this one.

Quote:
“Even more so. I think the guy was really underestimated, maybe because of the volume he’s played. But, if you look at the games he’s won for us the last two years, to get us in the playoffs – he’s shown he can go in under not the best of circumstances and get it done in some tough buildings.”
Wins @MIN and @STL last year were his only road wins. Year before was better, he won at EDM, CBJ, NAS x2, WSH. That's hardly awe inspiring. The guy is underestimated for a reason, he's 20-18-5 during his career on an excellent defensive team, and over the last three seasons where he was expected to fill a backup role he was 16-14-5. That doesn't scream potential starter to me.

On the flipside you look at other goalies like Schneider and Rask who have put up better numbers as backups, and it's easy to see why those guys have pushed on to become starters. They are far better goaltenders. Taking everything into consideration it's obvious why a team hasn't come in with a big offer for Bernier, he is unproven and inconsistent in his appearances.

I think he's like Neuvirth, solid enough, but he's not going to push a team into the playoffs, and if you want to get in them ultimately you would prefer to have Bernier as a backup.

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02-03-2013, 02:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
Gonna have to call Dean out on this one.



Wins @MIN and @STL last year were his only road wins. Year before was better, he won at EDM, CBJ, NAS x2, WSH. That's hardly awe inspiring. The guy is underestimated for a reason, he's 20-18-5 during his career on an excellent defensive team, and over the last three seasons where he was expected to fill a backup role he was 16-14-5. That doesn't scream potential starter to me.

On the flipside you look at other goalies like Schneider and Rask who have put up better numbers as backups, and it's easy to see why those guys have pushed on to become starters. They are far better goaltenders. Taking everything into consideration it's obvious why a team hasn't come in with a big offer for Bernier, he is unproven and inconsistent in his appearances.

I think he's like Neuvirth, solid enough, but he's not going to push a team into the playoffs, and if you want to get in them ultimately you would prefer to have Bernier as a backup.
He doesn't get enough games and we rely too heavily on Quick. I am not really advocating Bernier here, and I love Quick to death, but Bernier doesn't choose when and where he starts. Both Rask and Schneider were given chances because the number one goaltenders ahead of them wigged out and failed in some way. It isn't the case with Quick, therefore, Bernier gets zilch for games, and now he is made to suffer and be discredited because he wasn't given a shot against a contender and has to play a game every two months?

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02-03-2013, 03:19 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post


Bernier was primarily responsible for the Kings 46-27-9 record in 2009-10? You are being ridiculous now and making things up. Bernier appeared in 3 games for the Kings that season.
I'm going to guess you're talking about 2010-11 where he appeared in 25 games. Bernier started that season terribly and had a horrible first half, surrendering more than 4 goals on 5 separate occasions. His play picked up in the latter half of the season. So I can't figure out how anyone can conclude that Bernier was primarily responsible for getting the Kings into the playoffs that season. He had an inconsistent season, and he has performed inconsistently throughout his career.

I'm just not sold on him being a bonafide #1 starter in this league. I'm being reminded of Jamie Storr because there were similar arguments for him. Similar history of hype leading up to the NHL, but inconsistent performances prevented Storr from becoming the player he was hyped up to be, and it isn't a stretch to say that he may not be the starting goaltender so many thought he would become.
I'll just refer you to Dean Lombardi's quotes above.

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02-03-2013, 03:51 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
I'll just refer you to Dean Lombardi's quotes above.
Lombardi isn't going to talk negatively about a potential trade asset. Guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm not expecting a lofty return for Bernier nor am I expecting the Kings to regret moving him. It's not like they're giving up Tuukka Rask.

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02-03-2013, 03:59 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Lombardi isn't going to talk negatively about a potential trade asset. Guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm not expecting a lofty return for Bernier nor am I expecting the Kings to regret moving him. It's not like they're giving up Tuukka Rask.
Lombardi wouldn't have to say anything at all, like he did with Cammy a few years back. Bernier was supposed to be traded 2 seasons ago according to some on HF. I don't think DL is any hurry to trade anyone right now. Maybe in the summer but it's a little early right now.

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02-03-2013, 04:07 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
He doesn't get enough games and we rely too heavily on Quick. I am not really advocating Bernier here, and I love Quick to death, but Bernier doesn't choose when and where he starts. Both Rask and Schneider were given chances because the number one goaltenders ahead of them wigged out and failed in some way. It isn't the case with Quick, therefore, Bernier gets zilch for games, and now he is made to suffer and be discredited because he wasn't given a shot against a contender and has to play a game every two months?
i'm with Telos on this.

look at it this way. remember losing power in your house and you dug out the flashlight that was buried in the drawer for god only knows? you flip the switch and it runs out in 5 seconds, or never turns on. that is essentially how Bernier has been utilized for the Kings. stored away in a drawer, only to fail when taken out.

JB needs game time, pure and simple. no goalie will stay sharp when they aren't used. practice and scrimmage time DOES NOT equal game time. never has and it never will. Bernier was having problems finding and following the puck last night. well when he hasn't played in an NHL game in 10 months, should that be surprising? games bring different players with different shots, different looks, different tendencies, etc. the only way you can stay on your game is to see this live, not sitting on the bench and working the door for your teammates.

this goes back to Murray and now Sutter. i blame the coaching and up to DL for not seeing him used. I love JQ, but they have to play JB so he is ready when needed. it helps both of them also if they know there is a set schedule in place, so they can prep for games and know when they will have downtime. this is especially true for any backup keeper. it's no different than starting pitchers in baseball.

last night Sutter also got out coached? maybe. maybe not. ANH kept getting their #1 and #2 line out there against LA's #4 and it shows on the stat sheet. some will say he got out coached, but others will say LA plays their #4 against top lines often and just got out played. in any case JB got thrown out while this was happening and the team got steamrolled.

the team and the fans can't expect JB to step off the bench and live up to the tending we've come to expect from Quick. it's not going to happen and to tear the guy a new one is bs.

for years the entire staff from MAN to LA have all said that Bernier improves with more game time, but yet they don't play him. who's responsibility is that?

with the surgery to Quick's back, a shortened season, a very compressed season the best thing for LA is reduce Quick's workload leading up to the playoffs. keep the guy fresh for when it matters, while playing Bernier to keep him game ready.


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02-03-2013, 04:10 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
Lombardi wouldn't have to say anything at all, like he did with Cammy a few years back. Bernier was supposed to be traded 2 seasons ago according to some on HF. I don't think DL is any hurry to trade anyone right now. Maybe in the summer but it's a little early right now.
You're probably right that Lombardi won't rush to make a decision, considering the number of casualties this team has had, Kopitar's health (he clearly isn't at 100%) and Quick's recovery from back surgery all being concerns.

With Bernier's deal expiring at the end of the season, I don't think he's going to last much longer in a Kings uniform. I think at the latest, he is moved on draft day.

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02-03-2013, 04:57 PM
  #38
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Ziggy what happned to your Conan Avatar with the big helmet?

Anyway, I would agree that Bernier is going to get moved this summer. Kings will have some holes to fill this summer. If there's a trade this season, Stoll has to be the first to go at this point, his contract looks really bad right now.

Also consider that Scuderi, Penner, Richardson, Gagne are UFA's this coming summer and I don't see Penner, Richardson and Gagne coming back. So that opens up cap space and spots to fill. Tanner Pearson could easily replace Penner and we can get Gagne's replace via trade or FA.

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02-03-2013, 05:35 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
Ziggy what happned to your Conan Avatar with the big helmet?

Anyway, I would agree that Bernier is going to get moved this summer. Kings will have some holes to fill this summer. If there's a trade this season, Stoll has to be the first to go at this point, his contract looks really bad right now.

Also consider that Scuderi, Penner, Richardson, Gagne are UFA's this coming summer and I don't see Penner, Richardson and Gagne coming back. So that opens up cap space and spots to fill. Tanner Pearson could easily replace Penner and we can get Gagne's replace via trade or FA.
i won't be surprised if Penner doesn't make it that far. the only reason to keep him around right now is depth in case of injury. he serves no purpose except that. playing King and Clifford means more to the team in the long run, than sitting one of them and giving a spot to a player that shows zero compete. that isn't a precedent you want to set with young players. Gags on the #2, Clifford on the #3 and Kong on the #4.

personally i would rather see Richardson in the line up over Penner. at least he brings two things each time he plays. he competes and hustles. he brings speed on the wing. Penner brings neither of those.

personally i think DL should move him for anything he can get. if he can pull a 7th round pick, i would be happy with it. salvage something out of the situation, there are teams in worse shape up front then LA. someone will make a move for him.


and yeah what happened to the Conan big helmet avatar? was one of the most distinctive avatars around

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02-03-2013, 11:07 PM
  #40
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anyways back to the subject on hand, Bernier.

found a good article on Fox about what i stated earlier about JB struggling with timing and puck location. Quick has also been struggling with this as well. the fact that Bernier hadn't seen a live game in 10-months, it shouldn't have come as a surprise the outcome.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/g...-trophy-020213

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02-04-2013, 03:56 PM
  #41
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Going to the Kings/Flames game on the 20th. With LA playing EDM the night before here's hoping I see Bernier show up in Calgary

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02-04-2013, 04:52 PM
  #42
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Isn't he too small for the starter position?
I mean, there's not so many goaltender with 5'11" else than Halak (and still, he's struggling keeping his starting role with Elliott)

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02-04-2013, 05:14 PM
  #43
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Isn't he too small for the starter position?
I mean, there's not so many goaltender with 5'11" else than Halak (and still, he's struggling keeping his starting role with Elliott)
He is too small for the style he plays. Instead of relying on reflexes, Bernier seems to rely more heavily on positioning, but that usually inhibits him from making saves through traffic. He has a tough time finding the puck through screens, and his butterfly doesn't cover much of the net, again, due to his size.

I don't know if it is his size or his style (or combination of both) that is going to prevent him from becoming a starter, but what bothers me most is his nonchalant demeanor. I just wonder if he has the drive to take his game to the next level. One of the reasons that concerns me is that he never really stood out as being the top goalie at every level he played at.

As I mentioned earlier, he's had opportunities to be that guy, whether it be in the AHL, juniors, the WJC, and Spengler Cup, but for some reason or another, others pass him by. I understand that his infrequent starts as a backup goalie in the NHL may lead to some struggles, but there are other backup goalies who played just as much as Bernier last season and posted better numbers than him. Guys like Lindback, Joey MacDonald, Greiss, Budaj, Bachman all posted a better save percentage when playing a similar amount of games. Hell even Jason LaBarbera had a better save percentage.

I think a big part of his game that is lacking is concentration and vision. That's what hurts a lot of goalies and prevents them from becoming a starter. We saw it first hand with Jamie Storr and Mathieu Garon, goalies the Kings believed would be their starting goalie of the future. It's looking like Bernier will fall under that group as well as he's not going to be in a Kings uniform for much longer.

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02-04-2013, 07:36 PM
  #44
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I think all the Bernier is a bumb talk is exaggerated and unwarranted quite frankly. Usually, the best backup goaltenders in this league are older veterans who know how to prepare and be ready come game time when starts are sporadic at best. I'm not saying that his head is where it should be but can any of you really blame the guy?

Personally, I think we will still get some quality starts out of Bernier this season. Just, like I always say, have an ounce of patience.

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02-04-2013, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
He is too small for the style he plays. Instead of relying on reflexes, Bernier seems to rely more heavily on positioning, but that usually inhibits him from making saves through traffic. He has a tough time finding the puck through screens, and his butterfly doesn't cover much of the net, again, due to his size.

I don't know if it is his size or his style (or combination of both) that is going to prevent him from becoming a starter, but what bothers me most is his nonchalant demeanor. I just wonder if he has the drive to take his game to the next level.
His lack of size is his most limiting aspect, no doubt. This is a very valid concern, and perhaps the reason he will never be a top end starter, IMO. He does play a very positional game, it's rare that small positional goalies do well, that's true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
One of the reasons that concerns me is that he never really stood out as being the top goalie at every level he played at.

As I mentioned earlier, he's had opportunities to be that guy, whether it be in the AHL, juniors, the WJC, and Spengler Cup, but for some reason or another, others pass him by. I understand that his infrequent starts as a backup goalie in the NHL may lead to some struggles, but there are other backup goalies who played just as much as Bernier last season and posted better numbers than him. Guys like Lindback, Joey MacDonald, Greiss, Budaj, Bachman all posted a better save percentage when playing a similar amount of games. Hell even Jason LaBarbera had a better save percentage.
This though, is quite simply not true. In juniors he was arguably the best goalie in the QMJHL his draft year.

In the AHL, he stepped right into the starting role at 20. He was splitting time with Quick pre-Quick recall at worst, if not playing more than Quick. Then stepped up as the starter the rest of the year. In 09-10 he was named the best goaltender in the AHL, at just 21 years old. Was 1st in SVP among all starting goalies in the AHL, if that's not stepping up as a starter, I don't know what is.

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I think a big part of his game that is lacking is concentration and vision. That's what hurts a lot of goalies and prevents them from becoming a starter. We saw it first hand with Jamie Storr and Mathieu Garon, goalies the Kings believed would be their starting goalie of the future. It's looking like Bernier will fall under that group as well as he's not going to be in a Kings uniform for much longer.
I don't think so. Goalies like Garon rely heavily on athleticism, and as a result struggle mightily with consistency.

A goalie like Bernier does not. He does not seem to get hot like a Garon, but I don't think he'll go cold as bad as a Garon, nor will he go as hot. He is a goalie that thrives on consistency, playing regularly, getting in rhythm. The exact opposite of a Garon, IMO.

A goalie a might use as a comparable would be a Sergei Bobrovsky. Not a big goaltender, relies positioning and be consistent, playing consistently. Did well playing as a starter for PHI (2.59gaa, .915svp in 54gp in 10-11), but struggled coming off the bench and not playing regularly (3.02gaa, .899svp in 34gp in 11-12). Now seems to be refinding his game playing regularly in Columbus.

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02-04-2013, 10:12 PM
  #46
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size now is the reason?

a few guys just stopped by on their way back to the HHOF and wanted to say hello

P Roy - 6'
G Fuhr - 5'9"
B Smith - 5'10"
T Esposito - 5'11"
E Giacomin - 5'11"
G Cheevers - 5'11"
B Parent - 5'10"
G Worsley - 5'7"
J Plante - 6'
J Bower - 5'10"
G Hall - 5'11"

our own and SHOULD be in the HHOF

R Vachon - 5'7"

btw they all say your size argument holds no water

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02-04-2013, 10:20 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Whiskeypete View Post
size now is the reason?

a few guys just stopped by on their way back to the HHOF and wanted to say hello

P Roy - 6'
G Fuhr - 5'9"
B Smith - 5'10"
T Esposito - 5'11"
E Giacomin - 5'11"
G Cheevers - 5'11"
B Parent - 5'10"
G Worsley - 5'7"
J Plante - 6'
J Bower - 5'10"
G Hall - 5'11"

our own and SHOULD be in the HHOF

R Vachon - 5'7"

btw they all say your size argument holds no water
Only one of those guys has played since 2000, most never even played in 90's...the game has changed one whole HELL of alot since then...how many sub 6' goalies do you see in the NHL nowadays? Very few, and there's a reason for that.

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02-04-2013, 10:48 PM
  #48
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Going to the Kings/Flames game on the 20th. With LA playing EDM the night before here's hoping I see Bernier show up in Calgary
I'm going to the game in Edmonton on the 19th and then to the Calgary game on the 20th as well! Hopefully the team is playing better by then

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02-04-2013, 10:58 PM
  #49
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every goalie is trained on positional play. some play it better than others at the core. for some keepers they are able to 'cheat' due to speed, flexibility and other attributes they may have.

i dont work with keepers, but have a basic coaching understanding when it comes to developing them. once a kid makes the decision to become a goalie the basics they are taught deal entirely with position from day one. i am not just talking about their position in the crease in relation to the goalmouth.

the hybrid butterfly style that most play now is taught with exact movements and placements so a goalie remains squared and positionally sound in the crease, in relation to the puck and shooter. a few and i mean a few.
*Stick out front and slanted in towards the keeper. Causes the puck to deflect up, out and away from the keeper to the back boards and glass.
*Blocker saves are to played so they are directed (not deflected as many think) to the corner or halfboards, depending on opposing players. This is done by using the block by rotating the wrist to 'steer' the puck in the desired direction.
*Chest saves are meant to made for any shot a foot of the ice. Yes, 1 foot off the ice. Goalies are taught to go down in the butterfly, square to the shooter, drop their butt, tuck their elbows in, smother/control the rebound and use the catcher to smother the puck.
*Movement back and forth, side to side is very scripted on how they move their feet, legs and pads. The stick, catcher and blocker are all specifically scripted on where they should be positioned as the goalie is moving.

Just a few of the basics, but ALL of it is positional in how a keeper is trained to play. The butterfly style developed over the years and is successful, because it largely is due to goalies being more positionally strong in net 100% of the time. They take more space, are better able to control rebounds and can react to last second shots. Butterfly allows a goalie to better control his momentum in net, which allows him better control the shooter.

Old stand up goalies it was far easier for a shooter to deke them and use their momentum against them. These days good luck with that. Just watch a few Quick highlight reels. When he is falling to one side he is still able to come back to the other side and make a save.

It's percentages. They are playing a system that allows for goalies to play the percentages against shooters, by reducing shooting space, control their movement, their angles, gap to the shooter and better control rebounds. If a goalie today isn't strong positionally, they will never make it. They all play a positional game, because that is how goaltending is taught.

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02-05-2013, 01:26 AM
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theMajor
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one bad game, in a relief role nonetheless, and people are ******** on Bernier?!


some of you arm-chair GM's need to take a step back and re-evaluate the garbage you are spewing

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