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02-05-2013, 12:13 AM
  #1
MarshmontMcSlewfoot
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Saw Yandle play tonight

Thoughts on Yandle:


1. Yandle is a nice player but he would be a BAD BAD bad fit for the Bruins. Big time Gambler. Seemed to make a glaring mistake a period, and the Yotes ST's near me voiced frustration with him akin to what guys like Kabs and Wideman got from our fans. Still a nice offensive player though he creates chances but I think he'd be a horrible fit for the Bruins and could easily find himself as public enemy #1 were he to ever play here. Wideman and Kaberle created tons of offense (Wideman led the team in scoring in the playoffs in '10 and Kabs led D men in scoring when we won the Cup despite being third pairing) and both were hate figures. I saw the same exact thing from Keith (he even slipped on a PP and allowed a shorthanded breakaway that is something that would have our fans ready to murder a Bruins D man over.)

2. Trading DK for him would be moronic. We should be thankful Kaberle didn't come back in the Kessel trade. Same exact thing. Unless he comes as a UFA Yandle is best far away from Boston. Keith is a nice player but he's like Wideman and Kaberle but more of a gambler than them he would be an awful fit for us.

Non Yandle thoughts:

1. Best arena I have ever been to its beautiful. Such a shame it is in Glendale and not Scottsdale, people who lived in Phoenix near me were lamenting how far a drive it is for them and the distance is why they only go to 1 or 2 games a year. It would be packed if they built the arena in the right part of the city. Wasn't really that empty the sides were full (not packed) except for the luxury seats and the ends were about half full. Crowd wasn't worse than something circa 2007 at TD Garden so really not that bad.

2. Shame on Bruins fans who went there and acted like punks last year. People behind me said the Bruins fans were the most obnoxious visiting team they had last season. You are not cool b/c you want to double dip on your vacation and Bruins game and do both for the price of a pair of Loges at the Garden so grow up and don't pick on and disparage fans of a team we don't have a rivalry with.


3. Good job keeping the team in a real city Bettman. Don't give in to the crap and put them in Canada just to fill seats. An NHL game is a lovely way to cap off a day on the golf course. Keep growing the product, only make more Canadian teams if you do expansion, and don't move the Yotes. Like I said winter golf and hockey games are a match made in heaven.


Last edited by MarshmontMcSlewfoot: 02-05-2013 at 06:35 AM.
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02-05-2013, 06:03 AM
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BostonBob
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Originally Posted by CharaTriedToEatMe View Post

3. Good job keeping the team in a real city Bettman. Don't give in to the crap and put them in Canada just to fill seats.


Yeah really - why bother trying to fill all those empty seats ????


Last edited by doubleminor138: 02-05-2013 at 07:41 AM. Reason: mod
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02-05-2013, 06:21 AM
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Yeah really - why bother trying to fill all those empty seats ????
Broadcasting revenues.

Phoenix is the 12th largest US television market.

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02-05-2013, 06:55 AM
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Broadcasting revenues.

Phoenix is the 12th largest US television market.
Dont matter if nobody watches hockey in that market, EI statistics unrelated.

Edit: And if I misunderstood and you meant the Coyotes were 12th best US drawing team 12th out of 23 is not all the great.


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02-05-2013, 07:16 AM
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Dont matter if nobody watches hockey in that market, EI statistics unrelated.

Edit: And if I misunderstood and you meant the Coyotes were 12th best US drawing team 12th out of 23 is not all the great.
http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2011...tes-1990-2009/
Quote:
State: Arizona
NHL Team: Phoenix Coyotes (Moved to Phoenix in 1996)
Membership in 1990-91: 1,196
Membership in 2009-10: 3,339
Growth: 179.2%
Notes: The Coyotes have actually had a huge impact on the youth hockey community in Arizona. Few teams are as active in engaging with local youth hockey. There have been a few new rinks built in the state as well, increasing opportunities.
Hockeys growing in the desert, and growing there, again, in the 12th largest US television market makes more business sense then putting a team in Southern Ontario or Quebec where hockey is already passionately followed by all.

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02-05-2013, 07:22 AM
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Non Yandle thoughts:

1. Best arena I have ever been to its beautiful. Such a shame it is in Glendale and not Scottsdale, people who lived in Phoenix near me were lamenting how far a drive it is for them and the distance is why they only go to 1 or 2 games a year. It would be packed if they built the arena in the right part of the city. Wasn't really that empty the sides were full (not packed) except for the luxury seats and the ends were about half full. Crowd wasn't worse than something circa 2007 at TD Garden so really not that bad.
Holy cow, they have to travel 10 miles to get to Glendale from downtown Phoenix? My heart goes out to them.

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02-05-2013, 07:37 AM
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Bill Ladd
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I think Bruins fans have been spoiled by Ray Bourque and are too hard on offensive defensemen.

If you're not a rookie, there just seems to be zero tolerance for mistakes, which is silly IMHO. Offensive defenseman can add so much to your team game. Just look at Dougie and that pass he made to Krejci for the winner against Carolina. Or the cross crease pass he made to Seguin against the Rangers that Tyler put off the bar. Or the pass he made to Marchand, that sprung Bergeron for the winner against the Islanders... Most of the guys in the league that can make those kinds of plays take risks and make mistakes. Obviously you want to minimize them, but I also think you have to accept a certain amount of errors/turnovers because at the end of the day, the Bruins have been at their best when they've had a defenseman like that on the team and producing.

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02-05-2013, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2011...tes-1990-2009/


Hockeys growing in the desert, and growing there, again, in the 12th largest US television market makes more business sense then putting a team in Southern Ontario or Quebec where hockey is already passionately followed by all.
wow. Great job Kaoz, your making quite the argument for phoenix if its true (didn't fully read the link) and they're right in the middle for U.S markets then they shouldn't be going anywhere I suppose.

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02-05-2013, 07:57 AM
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Bill Ladd
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I think that if a team can't put butts in the seats they should be moved.

That's great that they're the 12th largest TV market, but the ratings are abysmal. They average 9,000 viewers a game. By comparison, the Bruins averaged a 4.7 rating, which I believe is over 110,000 viewers/game. (And that number is dwarfed by Canadian teams.)

It's also my understanding that the league gets the majority of their revenues from ticket sales, not TV. If you can go from a rink that operates at 50% capacity to one that sells out every game then the league's revenues will grow.

To me, the only real benefit of keeping a team in PHX is the opportunity to grow the game in AZ.

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02-05-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I think that if a team can't put butts in the seats they should be moved.

That's great that they're the 12th largest TV market, but the ratings are abysmal. They average 9,000 viewers a game. By comparison, the Bruins averaged a 4.7 rating, which I believe is over 110,000 viewers/game. (And that number is dwarfed by Canadian teams.)

It's also my understanding that the league gets the majority of their revenues from ticket sales, not TV. If you can go from a rink that operates at 50% capacity to one that sells out every game then the league's revenues will grow.

To me, the only real benefit of keeping the team there is the opportunity to grow the game in AZ.
They do, and that's a problem they're actively trying to change with the Southern market strategy. Getting kids involved in hockey is the first step. More kids involved means more fans as both the child and the parent have to take an interest in the sport. While the parent club may suffer on the bottom line, the hockey camps and promotions they put on build a stronger future. They need to be committed enough to see that through though else it's all for not.

You can't grow the sport if you don't venture into those non traditional markets and in order to do so you must be willing to take a beating at first. The same thing happened in Carolina when they first joined the league, and they've been quite successful growing the sport there:
http://www.canescountry.com/2009/5/1...alue-growth-is

Phoenix was a reach when the NHL placed a franchise there, no doubt. So much has been invested in them now though it only makes sense to keep them there if possible. I also wonder if NBC would take issue with the NHL relocating a team from the sunbelt back to Canada after their latest broadcast contract.

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02-05-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2011...tes-1990-2009/


Hockeys growing in the desert, and growing there, again, in the 12th largest US television market makes more business sense then putting a team in Southern Ontario or Quebec where hockey is already passionately followed by all.
Those number are insignificant. When you start with a really low number, the percentage increase can look good. But raw numbers had them increase by 2,000 members, while areas with already a high base saw increases of 18,000 members (Mass), 21,000 (Minn) and 27,000 (Michigan). Florida, which everyone thinks is a non hockey market, had an increase of 9,000. Yes they are increasing, but if it gains 2,000 members every decade would see Arizona catch up to the current Mass numbers in 200 years (!).

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02-05-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I think Bruins fans have been spoiled by Ray Bourque and are too hard on offensive defensemen.

If you're not a rookie, there just seems to be zero tolerance for mistakes, which is silly IMHO. Offensive defenseman can add so much to your team game. Just look at Dougie and that pass he made to Krejci for the winner against Carolina. Or the cross crease pass he made to Seguin against the Rangers that Tyler put off the bar. Or the pass he made to Marchand, that sprung Bergeron for the winner against the Islanders... Most of the guys in the league that can make those kinds of plays take risks and make mistakes. Obviously you want to minimize them, but I also think you have to accept a certain amount of errors/turnovers because at the end of the day, the Bruins have been at their best when they've had a defenseman like that on the team and producing.
100% spot on. Offensive defensemen are high risk/high reward players and they add a dimension to a team that makes the game tougher on opposing teams. Who wouldn't want that for their team??

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02-05-2013, 08:24 AM
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Those number are insignificant. When you start with a really low number, the percentage increase can look good. But raw numbers had them increase by 2,000 members, while areas with already a high base saw increases of 18,000 members (Mass), 21,000 (Minn) and 27,000 (Michigan). Florida, which everyone thinks is a non hockey market, had an increase of 9,000. Yes they are increasing, but if it gains 2,000 members every decade would see Arizona catch up to the current Mass numbers in 200 years (!).
If you assume such a linear increase, yes. That's not very realistic however as growth in sports markets tends to be exponential.

1 person gets involved, then 2 people, then 4, then 8, then 16, then 32, then 64... yada yada yada.

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02-05-2013, 08:34 AM
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I would really like to see the Bruins acquire Keith but the way Hamilton has come in and played I think we could put some trade talks on hold for now. And Krejci is playing great hockey, not the time to make a move

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02-05-2013, 08:42 AM
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I would really like to see the Bruins acquire Keith but the way Hamilton has come in and played I think we could put some trade talks on hold for now. And Krejci is playing great hockey, not the time to make a move
Honestly if Hamilton keeps playing/developing the way he has the Bruins won't need to deal for someone like Yandle or go after a UFA.

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02-05-2013, 09:37 AM
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Bill Ladd
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They do, and that's a problem they're actively trying to change with the Southern market strategy. Getting kids involved in hockey is the first step. More kids involved means more fans as both the child and the parent have to take an interest in the sport. While the parent club may suffer on the bottom line, the hockey camps and promotions they put on build a stronger future. They need to be committed enough to see that through though else it's all for not.

You can't grow the sport if you don't venture into those non traditional markets and in order to do so you must be willing to take a beating at first. The same thing happened in Carolina when they first joined the league, and they've been quite successful growing the sport there:
http://www.canescountry.com/2009/5/1...alue-growth-is

Phoenix was a reach when the NHL placed a franchise there, no doubt. So much has been invested in them now though it only makes sense to keep them there if possible. I also wonder if NBC would take issue with the NHL relocating a team from the sunbelt back to Canada after their latest broadcast contract.
I get that, but the Coyotes have been in the NHL for as long as the Hurricanes (1yr longer actually) and one team's got a vibrant, thriving fan base while the other is still struggling with fan interest.

There's a concept in small business called "strategic quitting." It comes from a book called The Dip by Seth Godin and it's basically about powering through the early obstacles (when everyone quits) and getting to a point where you can make an objective evaluation of where you're at, how long it's taken you to get there, and if your goals are still achievable given what you've learned since you've been in business- or if you're just throwing good money after bad.

To me, the Coyotes have gotten through the dip.

They've powered through ownership problems, arena issues, complicated local government issues, bankruptcy, been absorbed by the league... They've earned the right to take what they've learned and decide if it makes sense to keep racking up $30m losses. They've had 16 years to make it work, that's enough of a sample for me to say they had their shot.

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02-05-2013, 10:24 AM
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Honestly if Hamilton keeps playing/developing the way he has the Bruins won't need to deal for someone like Yandle or go after a UFA.
This.

We have a solid top 6. If we cant resign someone, then you think about dealing for a Yandle. But until then, you don't touch it.

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02-05-2013, 10:32 AM
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I get that, but the Coyotes have been in the NHL for as long as the Hurricanes (1yr longer actually) and one team's got a vibrant, thriving fan base while the other is still struggling with fan interest.

There's a concept in small business called "strategic quitting." It comes from a book called The Dip by Seth Godin and it's basically about powering through the early obstacles (when everyone quits) and getting to a point where you can make an objective evaluation of where you're at, how long it's taken you to get there, and if your goals are still achievable given what you've learned since you've been in business- or if you're just throwing good money after bad.

To me, the Coyotes have gotten through the dip.

They've powered through ownership problems, arena issues, complicated local government issues, bankruptcy, been absorbed by the league... They've earned the right to take what they've learned and decide if it makes sense to keep racking up $30m losses. They've had 16 years to make it work, that's enough of a sample for me to say they had their shot.
Sometimes it just takes longer, and to be fair Phoenix hasn't powered through those ownership issues yet. That issue is still paramount and a huge reason why attendance has really suffered there. Pre-ownership issues their attendance wasn't nearly as bad as it is now, and they saw similar figures to the Isles, Preds, Panthers, Hawks, etc... The fans aren't going to commit to a team that has no ownership, why would they invest?

Get marketing savvy ownership in there and it will be the first HUGE step in the right direction.

They also need to stop trying to ice a borderline competitor and get themselves a cornerstone piece through the draft whom they can market a la Carolina with Eric Staal. In their 16 year existence the Coyotes have drafted inside the top 10 only 5 times, the top 5 only twice and haven't had much luck when doing so (Wheeler, Turris, Boedker, OEL, and Mueller). Their biggest pull has really been Shane Doan and for the casual fan he's not the most exciting player to get behind.

Things can be done a lot better then they have been in Phoenix, the market never really got a fair shake imo. And right now, being one of the fastest growing populations in the nation, it would be wise to correct that.

All that said, if they don't get new ownership soon it was all for not. I think the NHL could better facilitate the sale by lowering the price to something more reasonable, but honestly doubt they will. Because of that Quebec looks more and more likely.

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02-05-2013, 10:36 AM
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The biggest black mark on the Coyotees is that they have been good yet still struggle.

Teams like Atlanta, Columbus, and Florida have been perpetual disappointments yet still rated better on TV than Phoenix. It is just a terrible market.

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02-05-2013, 10:52 AM
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Sometimes it just takes longer, and to be fair Phoenix hasn't powered through those ownership issues yet. That issue is still paramount and a huge reason why attendance has really suffered there. Pre-ownership issues their attendance wasn't nearly as bad as it is now, and they saw similar figures to the Isles, Preds, Panthers, Hawks, etc... The fans aren't going to commit to a team that has no ownership, why would they invest?

Get marketing savvy ownership in there and it will be the first HUGE step in the right direction.

They also need to stop trying to ice a borderline competitor and get themselves a cornerstone piece through the draft whom they can market a la Carolina with Eric Staal. In their 16 year existence the Coyotes have drafted inside the top 10 only 5 times, the top 5 only twice and haven't had much luck when doing so (Wheeler, Turris, Boedker, OEL, and Mueller). Their biggest pull has really been Shane Doan and for the casual fan he's not the most exciting player to get behind.

Things can be done a lot better then they have been in Phoenix, the market never really got a fair shake imo. And right now, being one of the fastest growing populations in the nation, it would be wise to correct that.

All that said, if they don't get new ownership soon it was all for not. I think the NHL could better facilitate the sale by lowering the price to something more reasonable, but honestly doubt they will. Because of that Quebec looks more and more likely.
It's funny because they've almost powered their way from bad situations (arena, ownership)..into WORSE situations. There's no ownership stability, the old ownership group messed up the arena decision completely (Glendale over Scottsdale)...and even comparing Carolina and Phoenix, the Hurricanes have been to as many Stanley Cup Finals (2) as the Coyotes have won playoff series (2), it's not fair to say...hey this team has been good, when they had never won a playoff series until last year when everyone had already pretty much assumed that the moving trucks were already circling the arena. Tough for fans to invest in that sort of situation.

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02-05-2013, 10:55 AM
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The biggest black mark on the Coyotees is that they have been good yet still struggle.

Teams like Atlanta, Columbus, and Florida have been perpetual disappointments yet still rated better on TV than Phoenix. It is just a terrible market.
Meh, have they really been good though? They've made it out of the first round of the playoffs once in their entire history, last year, amidst the ownership issues still plaguing the team. This includes a 6 year streak where they failed to make the playoffs from 2003 to 2009.

I doubt a team with that type of success would be supported even here.

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It's funny because they've almost powered their way from bad situations (arena, ownership)..into WORSE situations. There's no ownership stability, the old ownership group messed up the arena decision completely (Glendale over Scottsdale)...and even comparing Carolina and Phoenix, the Hurricanes have been to as many Stanley Cup Finals (2) as the Coyotes have won playoff series (2), it's not fair to say...hey this team has been good, when they had never won a playoff series until last year when everyone had already pretty much assumed that the moving trucks were already circling the arena. Tough for fans to invest in that sort of situation.
Agreed completely.

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02-05-2013, 11:02 AM
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Meh, have they really been good though? They've made it out of the first round of the playoffs once in their entire history, last year, amidst the ownership issues still plaguing the team. This includes a 6 year streak where they failed to make the playoffs from 2003 to 2009.

I doubt a team with that type of success would be supported even here.



Agreed completely.
Most of what you mention harkens back to the fact that when the NHL started it's Great American Expansion project, it should have been done via a committee of bright hockey and business minds, rather than as a complete cash grab for expansion fees by the BOG.

The NHL expanded/relocated wayyyyy too quickly in the 90's/early 00's. Not so much that the talent pool couldn't support it, because I don't think that's the case, but more so because really the only blueprint they had was the LA Kings, who were helped a great deal by Wayne Gretzky and are located in a massive DMA.

If they had expanded slowly, they'd have had both time and more resources to support each franchise with it's struggling phase, but also more time to take learnings out of each expansion/relo and apply it to the next (i.e. where NOT to put arenas, how to get a favorable lease agreement, why you don't hire Scott Howson).

They really should be finishing up the expansion to 30 NOW, rather than 10 years ago.

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02-05-2013, 12:11 PM
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Yeah, I'm perfectly satisfied with Dougie Hamilton as our main PMD, thank you very much. I'm content with the ratio of good to bad plays that he makes trying to create offense by being aggressive.

He is proof that Bruins fans can be happy with the risk/reward that comes with a player with his game type. Do what he does and the fans will be satisfied with you as their team's PMD.

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02-05-2013, 12:46 PM
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I think that if a team can't put butts in the seats they should be moved.

That's great that they're the 12th largest TV market, but the ratings are abysmal. They average 9,000 viewers a game. By comparison, the Bruins averaged a 4.7 rating, which I believe is over 110,000 viewers/game. (And that number is dwarfed by Canadian teams.)

It's also my understanding that the league gets the majority of their revenues from ticket sales, not TV. If you can go from a rink that operates at 50% capacity to one that sells out every game then the league's revenues will grow.

To me, the only real benefit of keeping a team in PHX is the opportunity to grow the game in AZ.
Just to provide a counterpoint though - I think you REALLY have to look at the attendance/ratings through the filter that their team has been without an owner for 3+ years, and is continually rumored to be moving to QC/TOR/Seattle, etc. That has a HUGE impact on fan involvement, because people don't want to invest (either $'s or emotionally) to a team that is potentially going to be playing somewhere else.

I've been to several games at Glendale (parent retired in the area), and it's a great place to catch a game, and the attendance was always pretty good when I've been there. I really hope they can find an owner with a long term vision, and significant financial resources to cover the losses until the growth happens.

Just my $.02 - but the real failure of the NHL was to allow "flawed" ownership groups for many of the expansion franchises (TB, PHO, ATL, CLM) which has really hindered those organizations becoming successful. The potential owners showed interest, and their check apparently cleared the bank, so that was good enough. Now the NHL is paying (or already paid) for those mistakes.

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02-05-2013, 01:06 PM
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Never seen him play in person but having grown up in the same town, he was perhaps the biggest ******* in his ******* group of friends. I'd have an extremely hard time ever rooting for him. Weird to see a guy you hated in school successful in the NHL.

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