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02-04-2013, 04:19 PM
  #26
detredWINgs
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People bashing Smith at this juncture is hilarious. A rookie defenseman with almost zero NHL experience, surrounded by a bunch of inconsistent veterans with highly suspect hockey IQs, is not going to look good. Especially when he's been used to multiple seasons of AHL competition.

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02-04-2013, 04:39 PM
  #27
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So is Helm going to be one of those guys who everybody loves but he can't be counted on to stay in the lineup?

Because I love him but he can't stay in the lineup!

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02-04-2013, 04:48 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
So is Helm going to be one of those guys who everybody loves but he can't be counted on to stay in the lineup?

Because I love him but he can't stay in the lineup!
Maybe. going back to the numerous Draper comparisons that came up in the past, I was surprised to see how low Draper's games played numbers were for his first several seasons. It wasn't until he was 29/30 yrs old, and maybe his game had adapted a bit, that he regularly started playing around 80 games a season.

So maybe it's just par for course for a guy with a game like Helm's.

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02-04-2013, 04:54 PM
  #29
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Maybe. going back to the numerous Draper comparisons that came up in the past, I was surprised to see how low Draper's games played numbers were for his first several seasons. It wasn't until he was 29/30 yrs old, and maybe his game had adapted a bit, that he regularly started playing around 80 games a season.

So maybe it's just par for course for a guy with a game like Helm's.
When you travel at that rate of speed some bad things can happen. Draper also suffered his freak related accidents. I am wondering about that as well, part of why Draper became such a workout warrior was his early injury problems in my opinion.

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02-04-2013, 05:25 PM
  #30
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Um, it's too early to call Smith a disappointment.

Is that what the Chicago board is saying?
He's only a disappointment to people who had unrealistic expectations (Smith should contend for Calder!!)

Anybody who watched him with a smidge of honesty knew he had defensive issues..which is why the Q/S pairing was hated before the first puck was dropped.

it was also strange that Smith didn't get PP time when everyone was healthy, with Babs deciding to give the time to CC and The Golden Nose.Wonder. It sure didn't seem like Babs was giving Smith the chance to play to his strengths.

But Maybe Babcock is trying to mold him into defensive guy.

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02-04-2013, 06:29 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
So is Helm going to be one of those guys who everybody loves but he can't be counted on to stay in the lineup?

Because I love him but he can't stay in the lineup!
He's the anti-Cleary.

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02-04-2013, 07:25 PM
  #32
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Kindl has been just as good as Smith so far this year in the few games he's played. Really have no idea where the hate for his game is coming from. The only person who deserves it at this point is Q and Kronwall.
Yea I think each of us has our little bias and blinders toward certain players. Try not to do it but there are a few that I can't help expect will screw up. I remember doubting Howard, haha was I ever wrong. Kindl is holding his own. I like he's got his head up and is playing like a man. I wish he was Karlsson but it is what it is.

Speaking of hate: I am livid that Helm injured himself WEIGHTLIFTING!!! WTF!!! Like seriously bro how much stronger can you get in such a short span? Helm is already one of the fastest, most solidly grounded players in the NHL. Datsyuk also tweeked something last year "pumping iron," so fricking stupid. What sucks is that Helm is not the type of player to jump back into play, he takes games to get back to speed.

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Old
02-04-2013, 07:43 PM
  #33
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If they do make trades to improve the club, they need to acquire a top 4 defenseman and another skilled center. Helm looks like he could be out awhile and Abdelkader cannot be the 3rd line center. They could move Flip to center that line, but he's better on the wing in the top 6. Acquiring another center also just gives them a lot more flexibility in their lineup construction.
And no Arnott's not the answer. Don't even think about it.

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Old
02-04-2013, 10:38 PM
  #34
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Unless no one else noticed, Smith was finally looking comfortable in the last two games. Feed Kindl with top4 minutes at own risk. Also, Ericsson has responded lately to ice time, but it's definitely not ideal for him or the team to play upwards 25 minutes. White better be ready Tuesday.
I like how no one wanted Kindl near the team, but now he's the new best thing.

Putting all the bluster aside, I don't know how the Wings whiffed so badly on this one. Highest draft pick of any guy on the Wings now (as far as Wings' own picks). Doesn't make sense.


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Because Smith's play has not been good.

How ****ing breakways do you need to see him get burned on before you open your eyes and realize he has a lot to learn.

Don't get me wrong, I like his upside. But he's learning in the NHL. He had the same problems in the AHL. He's got some issues to iron out.

Smith has probably been on the ice for breakways in 8 games this year than Kindl has in his career.
So why is Kindl sitting while Smith is playing top four minutes? I think we all know the answer, but people are splitting hairs, looking at stats without context, or maybe without really watching who's doing what on the ice.

You don't have to cite stats to know when Kronwall blows his assignment or makes some of his bonehead lapses, for example. You also don't need stats to know you want him on your first PP unit.


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The "threat" is nothing but potential at this point.
He's not been engaged at all in the offense -- perhaps by coach's orders. Because he looked better offensively in limited action last year.
I have to think it's the coaches (and maybe Babs) trying to play mind games, or maybe to ease him into it. He know Smith can do more offensively, but they need two-way, top four defenders who can play 20-25 minutes. He probably tells him to go out and show him he can be responsible in both ends, and when he sees that's been accomplished, he'll reward him with more offensive sweets.

My guess anyway.

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Old
02-04-2013, 10:50 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I like how no one wanted Kindl near the team, but now he's the new best thing.

Putting all the bluster aside, I don't know how the Wings whiffed so badly on this one. Highest draft pick of any guy on the Wings now (as far as Wings' own picks). Doesn't make sense.
I think he's servicable, but that's it. It's hard to be more than servicable when you not PP or PK at a high level. Also, he's not nearly as good a skater as some posters make him out to be. He's mobile but that's almost a given in this day and age to play in the NHL. In comparison to someone like Smith his skating ability fades.

As far as draft pick goes, win some lose some I guess. The guys taken around him are not exactly world beaters today either.

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Old
02-05-2013, 12:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
He probably tells him to go out and show him he can be responsible in both ends, and when he sees that's been accomplished, he'll reward him with more offensive sweets.

My guess anyway.
That just sounds bizarre. Babcock isn't going to sacrifice scoring to prove a point or dangle a carrot.

I'm a big Occam's razor guy. My guess is Babcock doesn't think Smith is good enough to roam around like Brian Campbell. That's a pretty simple explanation.

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Old
02-05-2013, 12:35 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
That just sounds bizarre. Babcock isn't going to sacrifice scoring to prove a point or dangle a carrot.

I'm a big Occam's razor guy. My guess is Babcock doesn't think Smith is good enough to roam around like Brian Campbell. That's a pretty simple explanation.
I don't know how many times he has said, he does a good job of providing scoring chances for us and them. At this level it is more important to allow no chances for them. Pretty much everytime he talks about Smith and he likes the progress he is making on allowing less chances.

I personally think he should have a little more freedom. Guys should play to their strengths, wanting him to cut down on mistakes is one thing, but clamping down completely on what he does well is also kind of a problem. They started Smith on the PK, one that is struggling mightly not just the d-man but with forward problems up front as well. Then he doesn't want to use him on the PP until injuries arrive, something Smith has done on every level since well probably forever... It seems they are actively trying to force the defensive assignments down his throat which is fine but they should be careful not to wreck all the offense he can bring to the table. Scares me for Sproul a little, if this is the new philosophy because Kindl should have been tried out on the PP years ago and wasn't and his offensive game has regressed big time. He used to get a low hard shot away a lot, now he plays very conservative.

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Old
02-05-2013, 01:50 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
That just sounds bizarre. Babcock isn't going to sacrifice scoring to prove a point or dangle a carrot.

I'm a big Occam's razor guy. My guess is Babcock doesn't think Smith is good enough to roam around like Brian Campbell. That's a pretty simple explanation.

Except that he seems to be on a tighter reign this season (thus far) than when he came up last year. It's almost like two different mindsets.

And, no, Babs has always been about systems and everyone knowing where they're supposed to go. Franzen is slowly becoming Homer.

I still find him to be one of the most predictable coaches in the NHL.

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02-05-2013, 03:49 AM
  #39
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Except that he seems to be on a tighter reign this season (thus far) than when he came up last year. It's almost like two different mindsets.

And, no, Babs has always been about systems and everyone knowing where they're supposed to go. Franzen is slowly becoming Homer.

I still find him to be one of the most predictable coaches in the NHL.
That's the truth.

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Old
02-05-2013, 05:47 AM
  #40
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So why is Kindl sitting while Smith is playing top four minutes?
because there's still hope for smith.

smith is pretty useless at the moment, he surely needs every minute of ice-time to "find" his game in the NHL.

kindl on the other hand, i don't know, has he ever progressed since he came to the NHL?

i just hope smith is not the next kindl.

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Old
02-05-2013, 08:53 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Except that he seems to be on a tighter reign this season (thus far) than when he came up last year. It's almost like two different mindsets.

And, no, Babs has always been about systems and everyone knowing where they're supposed to go. Franzen is slowly becoming Homer.

I still find him to be one of the most predictable coaches in the NHL.
I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. As for Smith, I think this has to do more with him knowing that he's in the NHL now and wants to focus on being good defensively - especially since our defense is the way it is right now.


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Old
02-05-2013, 09:04 AM
  #42
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I think it's safe to say leaving Smith in the AHL last year has hurt his development. And I'm pretty sure it will hurt Nyquist's as well.

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02-05-2013, 09:29 AM
  #43
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I think it's safe to say leaving Smith in the AHL last year has hurt his development. And I'm pretty sure it will hurt Nyquist's as well.
Please explain.

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Old
02-05-2013, 10:05 AM
  #44
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When you're developing... you don't want to flatline for a year or two. You want to keep getting better and keep learning.

There's only so much prepping the AHL gives you...before you get to the point where you're learning the AHL game instead of prepping for the NHL.

If there are supporters of Ken Holland's "overripe" philosophy, I guess I'd like the list of players who've benefited from it?

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02-05-2013, 10:18 AM
  #45
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An adjustment period for Smith was going to happen anyway, whether he was brought up last year, the year before, this year, or next year.

He's played 8 freaking games and been shoved into a top-4 role right off the bat; give him a chance to get acclimated to the NHL before you throw him into the jet engines.

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02-05-2013, 10:46 AM
  #46
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White and Lashoff in tonight, Kindl is a scratch.

Methinks this is another nail in the coffin for Kindl's career in Detroit.
IMO his development has been mishandled by management


Last edited by Jurky: 02-05-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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Old
02-05-2013, 10:58 AM
  #47
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With Smith and Kindl out, White and Lashoff in, I really like those D pairings : (http://redwings.nhl.com/club/depthchart.htm?dcid=540)

Kronwall - Ericsson
Quincey - Lashoff
Huskins - White

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02-05-2013, 11:07 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
With Smith and Kindl out, White and Lashoff in, I really like those D pairings : (http://redwings.nhl.com/club/depthchart.htm?dcid=540)

Kronwall - Ericsson
Quincey - Lashoff
Huskins - White

Poor Lashoff, basically playing by himself

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Old
02-05-2013, 11:10 AM
  #49
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Poor Lashoff, basically playing by himself
I hate KFQ as much as the next guy but he's actually been pretty decent the last few games.

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Old
02-05-2013, 11:37 AM
  #50
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When you're developing... you don't want to flatline for a year or two. You want to keep getting better and keep learning.

There's only so much prepping the AHL gives you...before you get to the point where you're learning the AHL game instead of prepping for the NHL.

If there are supporters of Ken Holland's "overripe" philosophy, I guess I'd like the list of players who've benefited from it?
It's been the organizational philosophy since Holland took over and no organization has been better. I'm not sure why there wouldn't be some supporters of it. It's also hard to list players who benefitted from it and those that didn't, b/c there are so many variables involved. Would Zetterberg have the career he had if he played in the NHL well before he ever made the Olympics and was immediately given a top line role? Who knows? It could have hurt his development in some way by giving him too much too soon.

It's also not about just playing in the AHL for awhile. Again, Zetterberg never played in the AHL but he played in the Olympics before he ever played for the Wings and there are few organizations where that would happen. It's mostly about bringing young players along slowly until they are definitely ready for a nearly seamless transition to the NHL so there is minimal hiccups at the team and individual level and then they are slowly added responsibility over time depending on their play. Once they reach that point and organizational depth isn't uneccesarily compromised- then they play in the NHL. Some guys never play in the AHL or are only there for a year or two before making an impact (like Darren Helm) and some guys spend a long time down there before coming up. Those that do spend a long time down there (like Kindl), it probably speaks to the organization's perception of their development and readiness for the NHL at that given time. If you compare the careers of players who had a quicker rise to the Wings than other prospects in the system, there is probably an effect that can be displayed that shows the best players are those who force their way in the lineup sooner rather than the Emmerton's and Kindl's of the world who had a long developmental cycle and have only depth roles at the NHL. Maybe the Wings overripe philosophy didn't neccesarily hurt them- maybe those players that take so long to come up just aren't that good regardless.

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