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Old
02-05-2013, 11:24 AM
  #501
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Excuse me for not being satisified with an ECF exit in 6 games. The Rangers are relying to heavily on young, undeveloped players in pivotal spots on the roster (Stepan, Kreider, Hagelin). Here's to praying it pays off since that seems to be the strategy here
Organization is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Try to bring in veterans, the fans clamor to play the kids. Play the kids and the fans bemoan inexperience.

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02-05-2013, 01:12 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Yes.. because asking for an upgrade to Stepan is asking for 4 hall of fame gamebreakers to man all 4 Center positions

Excuse me for not being satisified with an ECF exit in 6 games. The Rangers are relying too heavily on young, undeveloped players in pivotal spots on the roster (Stepan, Kreider, Hagelin). Here's to praying it pays off since that seems to be the strategy here

I see an elite top 6 on all the teams that we're going to have to go through this year to get where we want to be. It's not really that shocking to try and match if a cheap, offensive minded rental is to be had. We've gotten smoked twice by PIT so far and looked brutal against them towards the end of last season.. don't see how anyone can argue we don't need a bit more firepower with them in the division and some other teams in the conference
It just doesn't compute. You're not going to upgrade your 22 year old two-way 50+ point center for cheap. You're certainly not going to go from what, apparently, isn't elite at all in your opinion, to elite, by pursuing cheap, rental options. How about we let our players develop, play the role they've shown they can play and be patient. Just because we made the ECF last year doesn't actually mean we automatically are entitled to go farther this year and should blow the team up if we don't. Or, I'm sorry, does the team that lost in the ECF make it to the Cup the following year ever year? Is that how it works? Some years, the stars align and you're making a really good run. You may not be as close to where you want to be as that run indicates. I'm not saying we couldn't win this year, of course but, you'll forgive me if, in this lockout shortened season, I'm not going to hit the panic button, trade prospects who we expect to contribute in the very near future(and whose contributions will be important due to their ECLs) or question the ability of our pretty legit young 2nd line C 9 games into the season. Let Hagelin go through his growing pains now. Let Kreider come back from his injury and re-adjust to the speed of the NHL. Let Stepan have more than 10 games to get going. Let Nash have more than 10 games to adjust to his new team. If we don't make it farther than last year, it doesn't mean we were wrong and our team sucks and we need to blow it up. It means Hagelin and Stepan and Kreider and Miller and Fast and McIlrath and Del Zotto and McDonagh will all be a year further in their very young development. We have a window, not a deadline.

Last year we saw the window open where our team was a legit competitor for the first time. Our progress to competing for a Cup is not, in anyway, guaranteed to be linear. We're not going to go ECF last year, lose in SCF this year, win SCF next year. We might get bounced in the second or the ECF again this year, but our window will still be open and all of these key young players will be a year better for it. You don't panic and start changing the role the kid has been playing and has been groomed for based on 9 games. You don't trade prospects like Miller or Fast who should be contributing next season for a rental. Stay the course and let the kids have their growing pains. It's not as if we went from the ECF to an 0-8 start. We're 4-4, 8 games into a season with high roster turnover. This insistence on upgrading over Stepan or competing with elite center depth has become nothing but bored and obnoxious. I wonder if the posters on all of those teams, with their elite center depth are sitting around arguing over how they can possibly compete with the Rangers elite top 4 defense depth. Teams have different strengths. There's no cookie cutter mold for success.

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02-05-2013, 01:41 PM
  #503
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It just doesn't compute. You're not going to upgrade your 22 year old two-way 50+ point center for cheap. You're certainly not going to go from what, apparently, isn't elite at all in your opinion, to elite, by pursuing cheap, rental options. How about we let our players develop, play the role they've shown they can play and be patient. Just because we made the ECF last year doesn't actually mean we automatically are entitled to go farther this year and should blow the team up if we don't. Or, I'm sorry, does the team that lost in the ECF make it to the Cup the following year ever year? Is that how it works? Some years, the stars align and you're making a really good run. You may not be as close to where you want to be as that run indicates. I'm not saying we couldn't win this year, of course but, you'll forgive me if, in this lockout shortened season, I'm not going to hit the panic button, trade prospects who we expect to contribute in the very near future(and whose contributions will be important due to their ECLs) or question the ability of our pretty legit young 2nd line C 9 games into the season. Let Hagelin go through his growing pains now. Let Kreider come back from his injury and re-adjust to the speed of the NHL. Let Stepan have more than 10 games to get going. Let Nash have more than 10 games to adjust to his new team. If we don't make it farther than last year, it doesn't mean we were wrong and our team sucks and we need to blow it up. It means Hagelin and Stepan and Kreider and Miller and Fast and McIlrath and Del Zotto and McDonagh will all be a year further in their very young development. We have a window, not a deadline.

Last year we saw the window open where our team was a legit competitor for the first time. Our progress to competing for a Cup is not, in anyway, guaranteed to be linear. We're not going to go ECF last year, lose in SCF this year, win SCF next year. We might get bounced in the second or the ECF again this year, but our window will still be open and all of these key young players will be a year better for it. You don't panic and start changing the role the kid has been playing and has been groomed for based on 9 games. You don't trade prospects like Miller or Fast who should be contributing next season for a rental. Stay the course and let the kids have their growing pains. It's not as if we went from the ECF to an 0-8 start. We're 4-4, 8 games into a season with high roster turnover. This insistence on upgrading over Stepan or competing with elite center depth has become nothing but bored and obnoxious. I wonder if the posters on all of those teams, with their elite center depth are sitting around arguing over how they can possibly compete with the Rangers elite top 4 defense depth. Teams have different strengths. There's no cookie cutter mold for success.
I never said our C core was going to be elite with a J. Jokinen/Antropov type. Just better. Here's a list of the past 5 cup winning teams:

08' DET 257 GF
09' PIT 264 GF
10' CHI 271 GF
11' BOS 246 GF
12' LAK 194 GF

12' NYR 226 GF

LAK is the only wild card out of the 5 and they started scoring almost at will in the playoffs. Both on paper and on the ice so far the Rangers have not scored nearly enough. It took us 7 games to beat the 7 and 8 seed last playoffs for the sole reason being that we couldn't score. I don't see how I can make it any clearer. Our defense is not THAT much better than the rest of the elite teams we will be competing against to account for lack of goals. If it was we wouldn't see Stu Pickles on the 3rd pair, ever (let alone on the roster).

Richter stood on his head in 94' and we won a cup. I have the feeling Lundqvist will have to do the same. Here's to hoping the "kids" play well and Lundqvist stands on his head. Not a strategy I'm willing to take into battle

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02-05-2013, 01:46 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by wojtekgoalski View Post
08' det 257 gf
09' pit 264 gf
10' chi 271 gf
11' bos 246 gf
12' lak 194 gf

12' nyr 226 gf
stats! Stats! Stats!

Do you even watch hockey

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02-05-2013, 01:50 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
stats! Stats! Stats!

Do you even watch hockey
Yeah.. I watched all those teams win the cup. Team stats > individual stats

I'm sorry I'm just not going to drink the Stepan kool-aid because he scored 51 points. I think he'll be a staple at C for us for a long time but we need more offense and it's not even debateable

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02-05-2013, 01:52 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
Standard soapbox post

It's more about people overvaluing an asset than it is that "a process that we don't understand".

Ideally, he's a 3rd line center (on a championship team).
IDEALLY, he goes bonanza and has a 76 goal 183 assist season.

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02-05-2013, 01:53 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
I never said our C core was going to be elite with a J. Jokinen/Antropov type. Just better. Here's a list of the past 5 cup winning teams:

08' DET 257 GF
09' PIT 264 GF
10' CHI 271 GF
11' BOS 246 GF
12' LAK 194 GF

12' NYR 226 GF

LAK is the only wild card out of the 5 and they started scoring almost at will in the playoffs. Both on paper and on the ice so far the Rangers have not scored nearly enough. I don't see how I can make it any clearer. Our defense is not THAT much better than the majority of the teams we will be competing against to account for lack of goals.

Richter stood on his head in 94' and we won a cup. I have the feeling Lundqvist will have to do the same. Here's to hoping the "kids" play well and Lundqvist stands on his head
Again, different teams have different strengths. LAK had Kopitar, Richards, Stoll down the middle. They added Carter. They had Brown, Penner, Williams, Gagne on the wings. How come they scored so few goals compared to other teams? It's all irrelevant. It's about how the team plays and how they execute the system that gives them success. We had high roster turnover and it's still very early. We are tweaking our roster with little adjustments, finding players who will help make the system work more efficiently (Powe is that kind of player). I could argue that our top four defense and goaltending is better than any of those recent cup winners and that our strength is simply different. The point is it's really too early to tell and there is absolutely no sense in moving guys like Miller or McIlrath who you have proposed moving for a guy like Antropov or Jokinen. Literally, no sense. Moreover, I don't think anyone is AGAINST adding a deadline rental with a top-six skill set. The problems are, A.) you insist that we must do so in order to bump Stepan down to the third line because you are pushing this anti-Stepan/pro-center depth agenda extremely hard, down all of our throats and most of us have disagreed with you; some politely, some impolitely, but almost universally, and you just continue to insist that we're wrong, Stepan is deficient and we need a better 2C. And, B.) you want to move pieces we're simply not willing to part with, and which it really doesn't make sense to part with in a world where ELCs and cost controlled contracts are extremely important, especially on a team carrying some large contracts already, and you want to do so for players who most of us do not even agree are an upgrade. In principal, I doubt anyone is against adding the right rental with a top-six skill set, at the deadline, or when the price is right, for a reasonable cost, but nobody here is going to endorse moving guys like Miller, McIlrath or Fast for Jussi Jokinen, or Jussi Jokinen bumping Stepan down to the 3C spot. A move like Christian Thomas + 3rd + conditional 3rd in 2014 if we make the SCF, for a skilled veteran with some gas left in the tank at the deadline is okay. Something like Miller or Skej + 3rd for Jussi Jokinen who keeps more than 3M on the books next season is not.

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02-05-2013, 01:55 PM
  #508
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Organization is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Try to bring in veterans, the fans clamor to play the kids. Play the kids and the fans bemoan inexperience.
Part of the experience around here.

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02-05-2013, 01:57 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Yeah.. I watched all those teams win the cup. Team stats > individual stats

I'm sorry I'm just not going to drink the Stepan kool-aid because he scored 51 points. I think he'll be a staple at C for us for a long time but we need more offense and it's not even debateable
So a team's goal scoring statistics are crucial, but the individual scoring statistics that they are comprised of are meaningless?

Mmmkay.

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02-05-2013, 02:07 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
I never said our C core was going to be elite with a J. Jokinen/Antropov type. Just better. Here's a list of the past 5 cup winning teams:

08' DET 257 GF
09' PIT 264 GF
10' CHI 271 GF
11' BOS 246 GF
12' LAK 194 GF

12' NYR 226 GF

LAK is the only wild card out of the 5 and they started scoring almost at will in the playoffs. Both on paper and on the ice so far the Rangers have not scored nearly enough. It took us 7 games to beat the 7 and 8 seed last playoffs for the sole reason being that we couldn't score. I don't see how I can make it any clearer. Our defense is not THAT much better than the rest of the elite teams we will be competing against to account for lack of goals. If it was we wouldn't see Stu Pickles on the 3rd pair, ever (let alone on the roster).

Richter stood on his head in 94' and we won a cup. I have the feeling Lundqvist will have to do the same. Here's to hoping the "kids" play well and Lundqvist stands on his head. Not a strategy I'm willing to take into battle
You do realize you are missing a few facts:

1) Gaborik played most of the playoffs with a separated shoulder
2) The Rangers did not have Rick Nash
3) Stepan played the entire playoffs with a knee injury that hampered his mobility
4) It was McDonagh's first season every playing that many games and that many minutes
5) It was Hagelin's first season ever playing anywhere close to that many games
6) The Rangers could not win a face-off - Enter Jeff Halpern + Improved Brian Boyle(51.8 compared to 52.7 this year) + Improved Stepan(44.5 compared to 48.6 this year)


I find it funny that this team is exactly like last years with all the changes already made...

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02-05-2013, 02:09 PM
  #511
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Again, different teams have different strengths. LAK had Kopitar, Richards, Stoll down the middle. They added Carter. They had Brown, Penner, Williams, Gagne on the wings. How come they scored so few goals compared to other teams? It's all irrelevant. It's about how the team plays and how they execute the system that gives them success. We had high roster turnover and it's still very early. We are tweaking our roster with little adjustments, finding players who will help make the system work more efficiently (Powe is that kind of player). I could argue that our top four defense and goaltending is better than any of those recent cup winners and that our strength is simply different. The point is it's really too early to tell and there is absolutely no sense in moving guys like Miller or McIlrath who you have proposed moving for a guy like Antropov or Jokinen. Literally, no sense. Moreover, I don't think anyone is AGAINST adding a deadline rental with a top-six skill set. The problems are, A.) you insist that we must do so in order to bump Stepan down to the third line because you are pushing this anti-Stepan/pro-center depth agenda extremely hard, down all of our throats and most of us have disagreed with you; some politely, some impolitely, but almost universally, and you just continue to insist that we're wrong, Stepan is deficient and we need a better 2C. And, B.) you want to move pieces we're simply not willing to part with, and which it really doesn't make sense to part with in a world where ELCs and cost controlled contracts are extremely important, especially on a team carrying some large contracts already, and you want to do so for players who most of us do not even agree are an upgrade. In principal, I doubt anyone is against adding the right rental with a top-six skill set, at the deadline, or when the price is right, for a reasonable cost, but nobody here is going to endorse moving guys like Miller, McIlrath or Fast for Jussi Jokinen, or Jussi Jokinen bumping Stepan down to the 3C spot. A move like Christian Thomas + 3rd + conditional 3rd in 2014 if we make the SCF, for a skilled veteran with some gas left in the tank at the deadline is okay. Something like Miller or Skej + 3rd for Jussi Jokinen who keeps more than 3M on the books next season is not.
Not that I care but there's also many who have politely and impolitely agreed with me. There are clearly some here myself included that feel the team is much deeper and well suited with Stepan at 3C. I'm just sick and tired of watching this team struggle to score goals year after year. Defense and goaltending is great but you're not going to win every game 1-0. The TBs, PITs, BOS's of the the world are always gonna have their way and score. If you can get a J. Jokinen or Antropov for a mid-level prospect and a 2nd/3rd at the deadline (or now) it's a no brainer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
So a team's goal scoring statistics are crucial, but the individual scoring statistics that they are comprised of are meaningless?

Mmmkay.
Hey didn't Dubinsky score over 50 points that one year? He must be a bonafide 2nd liner too


Last edited by DelZottoHitTheNetJK: 02-05-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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02-05-2013, 02:12 PM
  #512
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The TBs, PITs, BOS's of the the world are always gonna have their way and score.
That explains why they wiped the floor with us last season...

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02-05-2013, 02:15 PM
  #513
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Not that I care but there's also many who have politely and impolitely agreed with me. There are clearly some here myself included that feel the team is much deeper and well suited with Stepan at 3C. I'm just sick and tired of watching this team struggle to score goals year after year. Defense and goaltending is great but you're not going to win every game 1-0. The TBs, PITs, BOS's of the the world are always gonna have their way and score. If you can get a J. Jokinen or Antropov for a mid-level prospect and a 2nd/3rd at the deadline (or now) it's a no brainer.



Hey didn't Dubinsky score over 50 points that one year he played with Jagr? He must be a bonafide 2nd liner too
No, genius, Dubinsky scored over 50 points the year before last with no Jagr in sight. But, I won't blame you for being completely wrong, I know you watch so much hockey, it's hard to keep it all straight. Meanwhile, I haven't seen more than, maybe, one person politely agree with you all this time and I'm not sure what you even mean when you say some have impolitely agreed with you. How does that even happen? "Hey, butt face! I totally agree!". Must have been in those secret PMs you were talking about.

Either way, I've got to say, you've changed my mind. You're spot on about Dubinsky, whose career is, if not already over, spiraling rapidly down the toilet with no hope of recovery whatsoever, and I can see how Stepan is going in the exact same direction if he doesn't get put in his proper place as a 3C. He's just too mediocre of a hockey player to be expected to get any better or have any real offensive prowess in this league. We'd better trade for Saku Koivu or something to play 2C in a hurry. Glad I finally see it your way. I feel like a much smarter hockey fan now. Thanks for posting. You really showed me the light.

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02-05-2013, 02:29 PM
  #514
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You hold on to that and treasure it for as long as you can. Wouldn't these 'regular posters' who have PM'd you their endorsements, you know, come to your defense at some point publicly? I mean, seriously, ONE PERSON agreed with you! Hoorah! Either way, I don't know what you want. I just told you, you've converted me. I'm on board. Let's get that 2C baby.

McIlrath + Thomas + 3rd for Jamie Langenbrunner! Let's go! He played C at some point in his career, right? Right...?


Edit: By the way, there doesn't seem to be anything impolite about that PM. I'd still love an example of one of the people who impolitely agreed with you. That must have been all kinds of confusing.

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02-05-2013, 02:32 PM
  #515
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You hold on to that and treasure it for as long as you can. Wouldn't these 'regular posters' who have PM'd you their endorsements, you know, come to your defense at some point publicly? I mean, seriously, ONE PERSON agreed with you! Hoorah! Either way, I don't know what you want. I just told you, you've converted me. I'm on board. Let's get that 2C baby.

McIlrath + Thomas + 3rd for Jamie Langenbrunner! Let's go!
How would I have the option to reply to a PM I sent myself?

Maybe the other posters realize it's an uphill battle and they just don't feel like dealing with it. Maybe they just don't feel like dealing with the Stepan nut huggers because they know no young draft pick on our team could ever just be an elite 3C. I think I'm going to make a poll on the main board about this and (hopefully) get some unbiased opinions..

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02-05-2013, 02:34 PM
  #516
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How would I have the option to reply to a PM I sent myself?

Maybe the other posters realize it's an uphill battle and they just don't feel like dealing with it. Maybe they just don't feel like dealing with the Stepan nut huggers because they know no young draft pick on our team could ever just be an elite 3C. I think I'm going to make a poll on the main board about this and (hopefully) get some unbiased opinions..
I would encourage this experiment of yours. Even as a "nut-hugger", haha.

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02-05-2013, 02:36 PM
  #517
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How would I have the option to reply to a PM I sent myself?

Maybe the other posters realize it's an uphill battle and they just don't feel like dealing with it. Maybe they just don't feel like dealing with the Stepan nut huggers because they know no young draft pick on our team could ever just be an elite 3C. I think I'm going to make a poll on the main board about this and (hopefully) get some unbiased opinions..
But I don't want to hug Stepan's nuts anymore. You won me over. How many times do I have to say it?! Forget Stepan's nuts. Let's get on Jokinen's nuts they're way nicer. Let's go, man. Call Sather up. Miller + 2nd + Boyle (useless, right?!) for Jokinen. Let's go. Let's get some new nuts to hug.

Check out my new title man.

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02-05-2013, 02:44 PM
  #518
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But I don't want to hug Stepan's nuts anymore. You won me over. How many times do I have to say it?! Forget Stepan's nuts. Let's get on Jokinen's nuts they're way nicer. Let's go, man. Call Sather up. Miller + 2nd + Boyle (useless, right?!) for Jokinen. Let's go. Let's get some new nuts to hug.

Check out my new title man.
Hahah. I'll hug deez nuts all day


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02-05-2013, 02:46 PM
  #519
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Can we hug them together? If we actually acquire the mighty Jokinen, can we change our team name to the New York Nut Huggers? Obviously it doesn't even matter if we win. Just so long as our fans aren't hugging the wrong players' nuts.

On a side-note, are all 125 of your posts dedicated to making sure no one ever hugs Stepan's undeserving nuts again and redirecting that unwarranted cuddle over towards the more worthy scrot of Jussi? Jussi Scrotinen. You could say he was a real 'potent' offensive threat.

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02-05-2013, 02:54 PM
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Can we hug them together? If we actually acquire the mighty Jokinen, can we change our team name to the New York Nut Huggers? Obviously it doesn't even matter if we win. Just so long as our fans aren't hugging the wrong players' nuts.

On a side-note, are all 125 of your posts dedicated to making sure no one ever hugs Stepan's undeserving nuts again and redirecting that unwarranted cuddle over towards the more worthy scrot of Jussi? Jussi Scrotinen. You could say he was a real 'potent' offensive threat.
We could, but I wouldn't advise it. Simply because my Men's League team has the same name and we have lawyers on standby

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02-05-2013, 03:36 PM
  #521
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How's that poll working out?

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02-05-2013, 03:38 PM
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How's that poll working out?
Turns out all fans are biased towards Stepan. Bunch a' stat-reading logic-users is what they are...

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02-05-2013, 03:38 PM
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How's that poll working out?
Lots of nut hugging going on. Imbeciles. One day they'll see the error of their ways.

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02-05-2013, 03:40 PM
  #524
SERE 24
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Turns out all fans are biased towards Stepan. Bunch a' stat-reading logic-users is what they are...
After checking my thesaurus, the more succinct word you are looking for is "nut huggers".

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02-05-2013, 03:43 PM
  #525
DelZottoHitTheNetJK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Affinity View Post
How's that poll working out?
Not sure if serious, so It's about 25 minutes old with I believe 12 results. 1 guy posted yes, another said no and that Stepan is overrated.

I voted yes for the nut-huggety factor because I'm a Ranger fan and I have to follow the rest of my clan in their nut-huggingness

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