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Worcester Sharks / San Francisco Bulls news thread II

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Old
02-05-2013, 11:18 AM
  #751
LadyStanley
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Originally Posted by OffSydes View Post
But cant some of be contributed to DW and his drafting ?
Tim Burke. DW's drafting skill is getting the picks.

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02-05-2013, 03:13 PM
  #752
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Demers played one season in the AHL, in which he played pretty much the way he had for the last few years. He got sent down for 25 games the next season, but that was mostly due to roster issues in SJ, not Demers. So attributing his presence in the NHL to Sommers in any way doesn't work for me. Braun spent even less time in the AHL (43 games total), so again, you can't attribute him to Sommers. Irwin spent 2.25 seasons in the AHL. The .25 was due to the lock-out this year, and folks have been saying he deserved some NHL time since his first season. So again, I'm not sure that you can attribute his presence in the NHL to Sommers in any way.

As for Kaspar or other skilled forwards, by now there should have been more than 1 "borderline" player (Clowe) to make the NHL by now with as long as Sommers has been head coach down there. But there simply hasn't.
So the only credit you will give Sommer is for converting players who are NHL doubtfuls. No its beyond that, because based on their picks Demers, Braun, and Irwin were all highly doubtful conversions. You are simply refusing to give Sommer any credit for putting them in roles in which they were able to succeed. The standard seems to be whatever you want it to be which is an impossible standard to follow. So far an incredible steady supply of defense men have come up from WOR. That should be considered good by all standards.

On the forward side in recent history the odds were severely against both Desi and Wingels

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02-05-2013, 03:27 PM
  #753
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As for Kaspar or other skilled forwards, by now there should have been more than 1 "borderline" player (Clowe) to make the NHL by now with as long as Sommers has been head coach down there. But there simply hasn't.
You could argue that Cheechoo was a doubtful due to his poor speed (scouts said people skate faster backwards than he forwards).
Not a forward, but Douglas Murray was a huge NHL doubtful.

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02-05-2013, 03:45 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
So the only credit you will give Sommer is for converting players who are NHL doubtfuls. No its beyond that, because based on their picks Demers, Braun, and Irwin were all highly doubtful conversions. You are simply refusing to give Sommer any credit for putting them in roles in which they were able to succeed. The standard seems to be whatever you want it to be which is an impossible standard to follow. So far an incredible steady supply of defense men have come up from WOR. That should be considered good by all standards.

On the forward side in recent history the odds were severely against both Desi and Wingels
I don't care about where someone was drafted, I care about their level of play before they got to the AHL. You can't talk about Irwin's "draft position", because he was undrafted. That means the Sharks had a pretty idea of what he was capable of when he was signed. Demers had the puck-movement and offensive skills in juniors, the only question on him was whether he could handle "defense". And I was calling that Braun would make the NHL back when he was a sophomore or junior. So in cases of obvious talent before they got to Sommers, no, I don't give him credit.

As for Desi and Wingels, you are making my point. The only players Sommers can actually "develop" are grinders and similar players. Wingels may prove to be more, but so far he's looking like a 3rd-line energy forward who has a bit of scoring ability. Not a "skill" player.

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02-05-2013, 03:47 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
You could argue that Cheechoo was a doubtful due to his poor speed (scouts said people skate faster backwards than he forwards).
Not a forward, but Douglas Murray was a huge NHL doubtful.
I'll give you Cheechoo. I didn't think of him. I was thinking of guys like Plihal, Staubitz, etc. And Murray makes my point in many ways. He's a defensive specialilst who came essentially a big-hitting, grinding defenseman. He was bad enough defensively that he was a borderline 6-8 the first year or so. But he made MAJOR improvements once he got to the NHL and AWAY from Sommers.

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02-05-2013, 04:39 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I'll give you Cheechoo. I didn't think of him. I was thinking of guys like Plihal, Staubitz, etc. And Murray makes my point in many ways. He's a defensive specialilst who came essentially a big-hitting, grinding defenseman. He was bad enough defensively that he was a borderline 6-8 the first year or so. But he made MAJOR improvements once he got to the NHL and AWAY from Sommers.
Yeah, I'm not really following your guys' argument. I know nothing about Sommer, so I can't really judge him. I was just mentioning NHL doubtfuls that made an impact on the Sharks.

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02-05-2013, 05:36 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
On the forward side in recent history the odds were severely against both Desi and Wingels
Ummm, Wingels started his pro career in the NHL. Not sure how that would qualify as "severely against" as from the first day he got to Worcester there was talk from hockey ops about him returning to the NHL.

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02-05-2013, 05:39 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
You could argue that Cheechoo was a doubtful due to his poor speed (scouts said people skate faster backwards than he forwards).
Not a forward, but Douglas Murray was a huge NHL doubtful.
Cheechoo was close to a point a game guy in the AHL before being an "everyday" NHL...not sure that's a "doubtful".

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02-05-2013, 06:56 PM
  #759
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Cheechoo was close to a point a game guy in the AHL before being an "everyday" NHL...not sure that's a "doubtful".
I was referring to when he was drafted. His extremely slow speed made people doubt his abilities.
And AHL numbers don't tell the whole story. Even at a PPG pace, he could have ended up in hockey purgatory where he's too good for the AHL, but not good enough to be a consistent NHLer (like Vesce, Aucoin, possibly Ferriero).

On the Cheechoo note, have you been able to watch any OKC games? Wondering how Cheechoo's doing; his numbers look pretty good so far.

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02-05-2013, 07:12 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I was referring to when he was drafted. His extremely slow speed made people doubt his abilities.
And AHL numbers don't tell the whole story. Even at a PPG pace, he could have ended up in hockey purgatory where he's too good for the AHL, but not good enough to be a consistent NHLer (like Vesce, Aucoin, possibly Ferriero).

On the Cheechoo note, have you been able to watch any OKC games? Wondering how Cheechoo's doing; his numbers look pretty good so far.
I've seen part of two games...hardly enough to form an educated opinion but from what I saw he didn't look all the different from last season.

The problem with most people is they equate speed for skating ability. Cheechoo at his best was "below average" for speed, but he's one of the best skaters I've ever seen because you just can't knock the guy over. Last season I saw guys literally bounce off him trying to check him.

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02-05-2013, 07:15 PM
  #761
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Now I'm wondering what would happen if Matt Pelech checked Jonathan Cheechoo. Pelech blasts everyone he hits down and short of taking his legs out you just about can't knock Cheechoo over.

It might be hockey's irresistible force vs immovable object moment...

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02-05-2013, 07:58 PM
  #762
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The problem with most people is they equate speed for skating ability. Cheechoo at his best was "below average" for speed, but he's one of the best skaters I've ever seen because you just can't knock the guy over. Last season I saw guys literally bounce off him trying to check him.
No doubt. Even after his double hernia, Cheechoo had great balance at the NHL level. If he was able to get to the puck before anybody else, it'd be really hard to knock him off of it.

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02-05-2013, 08:00 PM
  #763
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Tim Burke. DW's drafting skill is getting the picks.
Sorry, I was trying to argue the point that DW has given up TONS of picks over the years.

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Old
02-05-2013, 10:14 PM
  #764
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I don't care about where someone was drafted, I care about their level of play before they got to the AHL. You can't talk about Irwin's "draft position", because he was undrafted. That means the Sharks had a pretty idea of what he was capable of when he was signed. Demers had the puck-movement and offensive skills in juniors, the only question on him was whether he could handle "defense". And I was calling that Braun would make the NHL back when he was a sophomore or junior. So in cases of obvious talent before they got to Sommers, no, I don't give him credit.

As for Desi and Wingels, you are making my point. The only players Sommers can actually "develop" are grinders and similar players. Wingels may prove to be more, but so far he's looking like a 3rd-line energy forward who has a bit of scoring ability. Not a "skill" player.
Oh so Demers , Braun, and Irwin were all ready for the NHL as soon as they showed up to WOR. Sommer could have done nothing. What?! All three are skill players to boot.

As for Desi and Wingels what else were they supposed to be? That that doesn't prove any point. You can't tap into something that isn't there. The fact they made it to the NHL at all beats the odds. Of course even if Sommer does develop a highly skilled forward like Couture you will just say that Couture had the talent all along and succeeded despite Sommer. There is no way he can win under your standards.

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02-05-2013, 10:15 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I was referring to when he was drafted. His extremely slow speed made people doubt his abilities.
And AHL numbers don't tell the whole story. Even at a PPG pace, he could have ended up in hockey purgatory where he's too good for the AHL, but not good enough to be a consistent NHLer (like Vesce, Aucoin, possibly Ferriero).

On the Cheechoo note, have you been able to watch any OKC games? Wondering how Cheechoo's doing; his numbers look pretty good so far.
Wasn't Cheechoo picked in the second round with good junior numbers during an era where speed didn't matter quite as much.

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02-05-2013, 10:48 PM
  #766
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Duh.


Last edited by domon: 02-05-2013 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Wrong thread.
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02-06-2013, 06:13 AM
  #767
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Oh so Demers , Braun, and Irwin were all ready for the NHL as soon as they showed up to WOR. Sommer could have done nothing. What?! All three are skill players to boot.

As for Desi and Wingels what else were they supposed to be? That that doesn't prove any point. You can't tap into something that isn't there. The fact they made it to the NHL at all beats the odds. Of course even if Sommer does develop a highly skilled forward like Couture you will just say that Couture had the talent all along and succeeded despite Sommer. There is no way he can win under your standards.
Again, Wingels started his pro career in the NHL.

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02-06-2013, 06:14 AM
  #768
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Wasn't Cheechoo picked in the second round with good junior numbers during an era where speed didn't matter quite as much.
Second pick of round 2...

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02-06-2013, 10:50 AM
  #769
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After struggling for the first month of the season the Worcester Sharks goaltending has been absolutely fantastic! Really happy with the way both of them continue to progress in the right direction.

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02-06-2013, 11:14 AM
  #770
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Looks like Tarasov is hot right now for the W Sharks...

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02-06-2013, 01:44 PM
  #771
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Wasn't Cheechoo picked in the second round with good junior numbers during an era where speed didn't matter quite as much.
Speed definitely didn't matter as much back then as it does now, but it was still important. My point was that Cheechoo wasn't an NHL guarantee. He had extremely slow foot speed even back then, and the majority of 2nd round picks don't make it to the NHL. Not to mention the 98 draft was a very weak one.

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02-06-2013, 01:53 PM
  #772
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Worcester folks - hope you're battening down the hatches. Looks like winter storm (Nemo) coming to give you up to 2' of snow this week.

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02-06-2013, 03:43 PM
  #773
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Looks like Tarasov is hot right now for the W Sharks...
He's on fire...and when he's not scoring he sure looks like he's about to. A real steal there.

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02-06-2013, 03:44 PM
  #774
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After struggling for the first month of the season the Worcester Sharks goaltending has been absolutely fantastic! Really happy with the way both of them continue to progress in the right direction.
Without Sateri and Stalock this team would already be out of the playoff picture.

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02-06-2013, 04:14 PM
  #775
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He's on fire...and when he's not scoring he sure looks like he's about to. A real steal there.
yeah it really looks like he slipped through the cracks.

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