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Game 9 | Calgary Flames @ Detroit Red Wings | 7:30 PM EST | FS-D (HD)

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Old
02-05-2013, 09:34 PM
  #551
Brick Top
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
You don't know squat what has gone down behind the doors. You don't know how much effort Holland has put into this team. All you know is that there was an effort and that we were left without improvement. It's like you edict the shady man with the 8 millimeter for committing the murder without having any evidence. Just that there was a guy with a gun and a dead guy. Terrible reasoning.
Ok, now I'm confused. Are you saying that it's Kenny with the gun, having murdered the team's offseason and call-ups? Or is it Cleary with the gun, murdering our offense and PP every time he's on the ice? Babcock in the library with the 8 mm gun (left field choice of weapon btw- much more rare than the usual 9 mm), killing our prospects' chances to improve by banishing them to play with Abby?

So many questions, and only so much beer left to help me sort through the answers.

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02-05-2013, 09:36 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
And you do know?
None of us know. Therefore none of us have a right to criticize him for things we don't know.

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The facts speak for themselves. This team is worse than last years team. Ken Holland will get the credit or the blame.
Ken Holland couldn't keep Lidstrom from retiring and Brad Stuart from returning home.


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He could have allowed the rookies to play last year and give them more experience for this year with no Stuart or Lidstrom. Instead, Smith is playing his rookie year with no training camp or Lidstrom to mentor him.
There wasn't any room on last years roster because people were signed 2 years ago when some of those prospects weren't even pro yet. Smith likely gets benched since they had Kindl ready to be given minutes and all they really needed was a 7th Dman.

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Nyquist is rotting in the AHL with Cleary taking years off of my life with every shift he takes.
Little known fact: Cleary wasn't always terrible. This has been a very recent development. But I guess it's Holland's fault for not being able to see into the future that in 2 years after scoring 26 goals, he'd fall off a cliff.

Give me a break.

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02-05-2013, 09:37 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
I can't be the only one who lold in real life when Eva came in blasting the Hudler stats
Gotta give him credit though he tied Huds into the convo like a pro. Ha ha

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02-05-2013, 09:37 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
Ok, now I'm confused. Are you saying that it's Kenny with the gun, having murdered the team's offseason and call-ups? Or is it Cleary with the gun, murdering our offense and PP every time he's on the ice? Babcock in the library with the 8 mm gun (left field choice of weapon btw- much more rare than the usual 9 mm), killing our prospects' chances to improve by banishing them to play with Abby?

So many questions, and only so much beer left to help me sort through the answers.
Get off the Booze. It'll let you actually think with a straight head.

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02-05-2013, 09:38 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No there isn't.

Jiri Hudler scored 42 points in 81 games in his second full season. He was 9th among regular forwards in ESTOI. Most fans agreed with the idea that he should stay as a 3/4 tweener the next season, rather than getting more ice time. Hudler scored 57 points the next year.

There's a large contingent of people here who want the team to be younger and want the prospects to magically be on the team succeeding. This is obvious by the number of people who believed that Nyquist was better than Hudler at the beginning of last season, and that he is now, etc. If that were true, Nyquist would be on the team. I hate to break it to you, but just because he's a really good prospect who has looked good in limited time, it does not mean he's a legit top-line player who can carry his own line.
Um, I hate to break it you, but I never implied that was the case.

Also, how on earth do you interpret Tatar playing in the top 6 as "carrying his own line?" On what planet would he NOT be playing with one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg (and probably also one of Flip and Franzen) if he were in a top 6 role?

And yeah. Hudler was playing on the 3rd/4th line on a stacked team. He was consistently playing with Filppula at the very least - another skilled player. How on earth is that comparable to playing on the 3rd line with an over-the-hill Dan Cleary and a Never-Was in Justin Abdelkader?

We don't have the talent on the 3rd and 4th lines that we did 3-4 years ago where a young offensive player could play with similarly talented players in a bottom six role.

Also, there can be multiple "large contingents" () of people who can - *gasp* - think different things. This language was in response to a post saying people ONLY want to see Tatar/Nyquist in the lineup, no matter where they land. And this forum is replete with evidence that many people think differently.

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02-05-2013, 09:38 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
The problem is, guys like Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, Quincey "turning things around" just makes them average players - it doesn't make them particularly effective players. Cleary has played 9 games, played ~16 minutes a game, and has ZERO points, despite getting PP time. Bert was effective in ONE game. And they've gotten older without anyone picking up their slack, so there's no telling if they're even going to get back to where they were last season.

At the very least, this team loses nothing by replacing, say, Miller and Cleary with Tatar and Nyquist, but we could gain a lot. I'd definitely take that chance this season.
Oh I think Cleary is getting more playing time to "justify" firing him.

Firing meaning, trade off, or put on the bench or whatever.

its coming... trust me, its coming

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02-05-2013, 09:40 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
None of us know. Therefore none of us have a right to criticize him for things we don't know.


Ken Holland couldn't keep Lidstrom from retiring and Brad Stuart from returning home.




There wasn't any room on last years roster because people were signed 2 years ago when some of those prospects weren't even pro yet. Smith likely gets benched since they had Kindl ready to be given minutes and all they really needed was a 7th Dman.


Little known fact: Cleary wasn't always terrible. This has been a very recent development. But I guess it's Holland's fault for not being able to see into the future that in 2 years after scoring 26 goals, he'd fall off a cliff.

Give me a break.
Cleary has been awful for a while. He was bad last year, but the excuse was that he needed surgery. Unfortunately i am not aware of any procedure to fix being horrible at hockey.

Holland knew Stuart was gone, and he should have known Lidstrom wasnt coming back. He talks to the guy every night and has known him for a billion years. He failed as a GM if he didnt know Lidstrom was done.

I have every right to criticize Holland.

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02-05-2013, 09:40 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Um, I hate to break it you, but I never implied that was the case.

Also, how on earth do you interpret Tatar playing in the top 6 as "carrying his own line?" On what planet would he NOT be playing with one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg (and probably also one of Flip and Franzen) if he were in a top 6 role?
the only planet that Holland and Babcock would ever put Tatar(or Nyquist) in a top 6 role to begin with,if all of those guys were injured

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02-05-2013, 09:43 PM
  #559
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If not Babs...does Renney slide in or? Who is out there worthy of steering the ship?

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02-05-2013, 09:46 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Get off the Booze. It'll let you actually think with a straight head.
Come on Jman, cut me some slack. Have you tried to watch the Wings find a way to play worse (again) than one of the worst teams in the league after coming off some rest days, and at the same time plow through a series of your posts about how great things are in Red Wing Land?

All while sober?

That's just mean spirited.

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02-05-2013, 09:49 PM
  #561
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This game should have been the cap of a 3 game win streak instead it's our 2nd embarrassing loss in a row (against 2 of the worst teams in the NHL) and with St. Louis on Thursday we're looking down the barrel of a 3 game losing streak.
Kenny needs to wake up and realize that he cannot afford to take 20 games to wait and see, and then go from there. Changes need to made right now.

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02-05-2013, 09:52 PM
  #562
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Lets just say the last 2 games was a real test for our team

Lets call it the "contender test"

We need to beat the bottom rung teams to compete with the top rungs... we just lost to both.

So looks like we are in some trouble.

P.S. really liked Tatar Tonight
Dats was pushing it, but man, unlucky


But overall, we lost pretty bad the last 2 games.

EDIT: P.S. Do you think they will keep Tatar up?

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Old
02-05-2013, 09:54 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Lets just say the last 2 games was a real test for our team

Lets call it the "contender test"

We need to beat the bottom rung teams to compete with the top rungs... we just lost to both.

So looks like we are in some trouble.

P.S. really liked Tatar Tonight
Dats was pushing it, but man, unlucky


But overall, we lost pretty bad the last 2 games.

EDIT: P.S. Do you think they will keep Tatar up?
Second Sammy and his 40000 year old body is healthy enough to get on the ice Tatar will be gone.

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02-05-2013, 10:01 PM
  #564
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If people are going to talk about Hudler, go do it on the Flames board. He's not on this team. Eva is more obsessed with him than most people over their first ex girlfriend that dumps them.

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02-05-2013, 10:26 PM
  #565
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how do people still get in arguments with eva?

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02-05-2013, 10:47 PM
  #566
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How many goals against was Kronwall on the ice for tonight? He's a complete mess. He can't hold a puck in the offensive zone to save a life. Lashoff looked lost out there too. Howard is a very mediocre goalie. Holland might have overpaid for his contract.

Datsyuk looks like he's ready to pack it up and head to the KHL, his head isn't in the NHL anymore. Atleast Zetterberg showed up and Mule is physical when he wants to be. Some of his checks reminded me of Joe Thornton. I thought Tatar was suppose to play tonight? I only noticed him when he went to the penalty box. Babcock probably should have played Eaves instead.

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02-05-2013, 10:54 PM
  #567
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Eh I just had a brilliant time watching Michigan beating OSU in overtime. The Wings are a mediocre team this year, if I can watch Trey Burke and Timmy Hardaway Jr. instead it's an easy choice.

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02-05-2013, 10:55 PM
  #568
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Datsyuk was everywhere tonight. Hes just a bit snakebitten.

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02-05-2013, 10:57 PM
  #569
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Quincey is absolutely worthless, guy takes a stupid penalty just seconds after we just had a penalty called on us. The Miller clearing attempt that ended up in back of the net was absolutely pitiful. Awesome to see us get worked at home by a team that had 1 win coming into tonight's game.

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02-05-2013, 10:57 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Um, I hate to break it you, but I never implied that was the case.

Also, how on earth do you interpret Tatar playing in the top 6 as "carrying his own line?" On what planet would he NOT be playing with one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg (and probably also one of Flip and Franzen) if he were in a top 6 role?
I was referring more to those who have been constantly begging for use to toss out Hudler, Cleary, Maltby, etc. and bring in all of the prospects who "are better now!" like the constant "Bring up Riley Sheahan for the 4th line!" stuff. Or the Joakim Andersson stuff from last year, where people wanted to just waive Emmerton and put Andersson in.

Quote:
And yeah. Hudler was playing on the 3rd/4th line on a stacked team. He was consistently playing with Filppula at the very least - another skilled player.
Hudler was playing with Draper and Maltby, sometimes Kopecky or Drake. In 2008-09 he played with Filppula and Samuelsson. He also scored 57 points that year, a number I doubt any of our prospects could come close to with any combination of our current forwards.

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How on earth is that comparable to playing on the 3rd line with an over-the-hill Dan Cleary and a Never-Was in Justin Abdelkader?
Again... Draper/Maltby/Kopecky/Drake.

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We don't have the talent on the 3rd and 4th lines that we did 3-4 years ago where a young offensive player could play with similarly talented players in a bottom six role.
2008-09 was an anomaly in that the Wings had skilled wingers in Franzen, Hudler, Samuelsson, and Cleary on cheap deals and they had acquired an elite talent in Hossa for the season, allowing them to turn the third line into a legit scoring line with Hudler/Filppula/Samuelsson (Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson had been the second line much of the previous season).

But as I have said many times, the fact that the third line can't be a scoring line is a matter of not utilizing our personnel correctly. Not a matter of not having them.

If we divide players into either "scorers/top-six" or "checkers/bottom-six" from the current roster, we get this:

S: Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filppula, Brunner, Bertuzzi, Tatar
C: Helm, Abdelkader, Tootoo, Miller, Eaves, Mursak, Emmerton, Cleary

As you can see, too many checkers. Cleary was *supposed* to recover to his top-six/scoring form. He didn't. Add Nyquist, and we have 8 "scorers". Maybe we can field a lineup like this one:

Franzen/Zetterberg/Brunner
Nyquist/Datsyuk/Bertuzzi
Tatar/Filppula/Eaves
Abdelkader/Helm/Tootoo
Emmerton
Miller/Mursak/Cleary

Nyquist, Tatar, and Eaves can all be shuffled around as you see fit.

That's not just three scoring lines, that's three solid scoring lines.

Quote:
Also, there can be multiple "large contingents" () of people who can - *gasp* - think different things. This language was in response to a post saying people ONLY want to see Tatar/Nyquist in the lineup, no matter where they land. And this forum is replete with evidence that many people think differently.
My post didn't say this overtly, but it was mostly that people don't have some grand preference for prospect development; it's all about player preference. People who wanted Hudler banished to the 3rd or 4th line in 2009 are in many cases the same people who now want Nyquist and Tatar in the top six.

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Originally Posted by braille View Post
how do people still get in arguments with eva?
Because anytime Hudler is discussed a) I am personally bashed by somebody, and b) I might happen to actually involve myself in the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
If people are going to talk about Hudler, go do it on the Flames board. He's not on this team. Eva is more obsessed with him than most people over their first ex girlfriend that dumps them.
Case in point.

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Old
02-05-2013, 11:00 PM
  #571
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when datsyuk is playing well he's the heart of the team and when he supposedly isn't he wants to go back to russia

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02-05-2013, 11:18 PM
  #572
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when datsyuk is playing well he's the heart of the team and when he supposedly isn't he wants to go back to russia
Apparently hitting a couple posts is Russian code for ' comrades bring me home'! I'm pretty sure I read that in a KGB manual.....or something...

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02-05-2013, 11:21 PM
  #573
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Quincey is absolutely worthless, guy takes a stupid penalty just seconds after we just had a penalty called on us.
Lol?

Hudler sold it with his 8.2 dive. Should never have been called. Lets look at the facts.... Kronwall was on the ice for 75% goals against

Krowall was on the ice for 3 of the 4 goals against during teh CBJs game, was on the ice for all 3 Blues goals, was on the ice for... Bah, look at the box score for yourself.

Kronwall needs to be traded. He's a complete disaster!

Quincey is the least of this teams problems. Atleast he block shots. Powder puff Kronwall and his $5 million dollar contract has no interest in working this year. He's the single first problem of the team! Wings can't win carrying his dead weight

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02-05-2013, 11:26 PM
  #574
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Did anyone else notice Kronwall looked completely lost/exhausted out there?
Even between whistles...
Not saying he sucks, but he's struggled in his new role.

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02-05-2013, 11:38 PM
  #575
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Did anyone else notice Kronwall looked completely lost/exhausted out there?
Even between whistles...
Not saying he sucks, but he's struggled in his new role.
he is just the wrong person for the number one job.
the problem is we are missing 2 top line defense men.
actually our defense looks like this in the reallity.

1st class defense man - ok top line defense man
kronwall - 2nd line defense man
ericsson - huskins
7th all the others

kronwall just can't pretend to be at least one class better. thats all. its more hollands fault then his.

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