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Penguins place Zach Boychuk back on waivers (Claimed by Nashville)

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Old
02-05-2013, 08:57 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Actually the reason is to potentially get both lines going. You could keep things the same and have one line going, or change things up and get both lines going. This scenario isn't a situation you can lose on.
Just because you say it's a no-lose situation doesn't actually make it one.

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02-05-2013, 08:58 PM
  #527
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Just because you say it's a no-lose situation doesn't actually make it one.
Then tell me how it is.

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02-05-2013, 09:00 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Penguins w/o Boychuk

4-3

Penguins with Boychuk

7-3

Just saying...points or no points, he's leaps and bounds ahead of Tangradi.
This is a terrible argument. Meaningless to the n'th. Malkin's line has done virtually NOTHING 5 on 5 in the last three games.

Malkin and Neal looked better with Tangradi on that line, certainly Jeffrey. But I am not holding that against Boychuck, it is more Malkin not playing up to his standard... and the fact that Boychuck simply isn't what that line needs.... as we all knew when he got the shot. None of the players who have been tried there this season have been as unlikely to be the solution (well, save for Glass).

It irritates me no end and surprises me very little.

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02-05-2013, 09:06 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Then tell me how it is.
I'm pretty sure I already gave you one scenario.

There's also the possibility that it hurts both lines.

This is a shortened season with no training camp, you don't have time to throw games away blendering everything.

Finally:

Boychuk has been playing very hard. He's been doing a lot of little things well. He has not been finishing, at all. You are going to put Crosby, who hasn't been shooting all that much, with two people who haven't shown that they can finish with any regularity. Chris Kunitz, for all of his frustrating attributes, plays a fast, hard-nosed game that actually meshes with Crosby AND can finish from time-to-time.

And Crosby is already being checked tightly now, I guarantee you when it's Dupuis and Boychuk, he'll have no room to roam and within 30 minutes everyone will go, 'omg why is crosby loafing out there? wah wah wah' because his line has exactly 2 seconds of zone time while he buzzes the tower.

But Malkin's line will score 5 goals and everyone will be line 'well, the best line in hockey is back together, ya can't break it up now'

And you'll be right back in the same situation you are now.

You have a line that works. Moving Kunitz, AT BEST will only be a shell game, moving around the "line that works" from line 1AB to line 1BA.

You've separated the talent on the roster. You've given Malkin the winger who best compliments his game in Neal and you've given Sid the best winger who compliments his game in Kunitz. This notion that there's only a revolving notion on Malkin's line is a red herring: Dupuis is only safe because Sid's game is more low-maintenance and doesn't look as crappy next to someone as unfit for the top-6 as Dupuis.

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02-05-2013, 09:06 PM
  #530
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Malkin has 0 points with him on his line in 3 games and you can probably argue that his line has been the worst on the team in those games. I didn't watch the third period on Sunday and the first two periods tonight but in the other 6 periods I have watched his best play was shooting on a 2 on 1. Those 3 periods must have been amazing.

Tonight, he had a couple of plays to give the puck to Malkin, once in the neutral zone but he dumped the puck and once in the offensive zone and didn't. He lost a board battle that went the other way and Grabner scored. The latter two plays he was just too slow in moving the puck and the window for Malkin making a play was shut.

Jeffrey has been the best of the riff raff they've tried on that line.

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02-05-2013, 09:10 PM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I thought you were joking the first time you posted it, but twice makes me think you're serious. Boychuk played well tonight. +/- isn't an indicator of effort or skill, especially in this case.
No, I'm not joking. Playing with 18 & 71, you'd eventually expect that line to produce if he's doing such a good job, let alone get some points. Its still early but you'd have to ask yourself if he's the right fit. After a certain point. I'd give him a couple of more games but the clock is definitely ticking.

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02-05-2013, 09:13 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by bingobangobongo View Post
Malkin has 0 points with him on his line in 3 games and you can probably argue that his line has been the worst on the team in those games. I didn't watch the third period on Sunday and the first two periods tonight but in the other 6 periods I have watched his best play was shooting on a 2 on 1. Those 3 periods must have been amazing.

Tonight, he had a couple of plays to give the puck to Malkin, once in the neutral zone but he dumped the puck and once in the offensive zone and didn't. He lost a board battle that went the other way and Grabner scored. The latter two plays he was just too slow in moving the puck and the window for Malkin making a play was shut.

Jeffrey has been the best of the riff raff they've tried on that line.
I thought before that Sid getting a second wheel was an absolute must and that getting Geno and Neal a third wheel was just a need.

Tangradi, Glass, Kennedy, Jeffrey, and now Boychuk have corrected me. The L2 LW situation is a cluster****.

Honestly, I don't care how good any of those guys may or may not be in a bubble or how much any one of them may hustle. All of them have neutralized the Geno/Neal combo.

As you said, Jeffrey was the best of the riff raff, although that's not exactly saying much to put it politely.

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Originally Posted by SprootsMasterFlex View Post
No, I'm not joking. Playing with 18 & 71, you'd eventually expect that line to produce if he's doing such a good job, let alone get some points. Its still early but you'd have to ask yourself if he's the right fit. After a certain point. I'd give him a couple of more games but the clock is definitely ticking.
I wouldn't even give it a couple of games. Right now, to borrow a famous saying (), that line is looking worse and worse each day, and right now they're playing like it's next week. And, Boychuk has gone from a guy who seemed like he had the potential go get it to a guy who's become Kennedy 2.0 with Malkin and Neal.

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02-05-2013, 09:18 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I'm pretty sure I already gave you one scenario.

There's also the possibility that it hurts both lines.

This is a shortened season with no training camp, you don't have time to throw games away blendering everything.
Who's throwing away games? If it's hurting the team, then clearly you change it back. Not that hard.

There's zero possibility it hurts both lines. You already know what Kunitz-Malkin-Neal looks like, or are you just throwing away last season when that line was the best in the NHL?

It MIGHT hurt Crosby's, it MIGHT help his, or it MIGHT end up being the same. If it works you again have one line going and one line not, which is exactly what's happening right now. At that point in time you can decide to change it back.

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Finally:

Boychuk has been playing very hard. He's been doing a lot of little things well. He has not been finishing, at all. You are going to put Crosby, who hasn't been shooting all that much, with two people who haven't shown that they can finish with any regularity. Chris Kunitz, for all of his frustrating attributes, plays a fast, hard-nosed game that actually meshes with Crosby AND can finish from time-to-time.
Sidney Crosby is actually leading the team in shots on goal.

Also Dupuis "for all of his frustrating attributes, plays a fast, hard-nosed game that actually meshes with Crosby."

Also Boychuk has looked good with Crosby when he had a chance to play with him. I'd like to see if that's something they can build on. Boychuk is also a fast player who is supposed to be able to finish from time to time.

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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
And Crosby is already being checked tightly now, I guarantee you when it's Dupuis and Boychuk, he'll have no room to roam and within 30 minutes everyone will go, 'omg why is crosby loafing out there? wah wah wah' because his line has exactly 2 seconds of zone time while he buzzes the tower.
I also guarantee you, based on past playoff performances, having Kunitz and Dupuis on Crosby's line doesn't change the fact that Crosby will get checked very tightly. Why not actually try somebody different with him until we can make a trade?

Also how can you guarantee something you haven't seen? Crosby already plays with two players that play a straight line game that doesn't take a lot of pressure off of him.

As it stands right now it's Malkin's line that has "exactly 2 seconds of zone time."

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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
But Malkin's line will score 5 goals and everyone will be line 'well, the best line in hockey is back together, ya can't break it up now'

And you'll be right back in the same situation you are now.
Ok...? One line working and one line not working with everybody complaining about how Malkin's line can't be changed? I still can't figure out how this is a losing situation. You're basically just describing what's already happening.

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You have a line that works. Moving Kunitz, AT BEST will only be a shell game, moving around the "line that works" from line 1AB to line 1BA.
And you have a line that doesn't work. Moving Kunitz AT BEST will improve the team, and at worst will fail and things will be moved back to where they are now. Again, you haven't shown me a losing scenario.

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You've separated the talent on the roster. You've given Malkin the winger who best compliments his game in Neal and you've given Sid the best winger who compliments his game in Kunitz. This notion that there's only a revolving notion on Malkin's line is a red herring: Dupuis is only safe because Sid's game is more low-maintenance and doesn't look as crappy next to someone as unfit for the top-6 as Dupuis.
And here's the crux of the issue. Malkin gets all the wingers. Ok I get that, but I don't care about that if both lines are producing. I do care if only line line is producing at the expense of the other though. If you can change that up UNTIL WE CAN MAKE A TRADE, then you do it. If it doesn't work, then like I said a million times, you change it back, and no harm no foul.

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02-05-2013, 09:18 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I thought before that Sid getting a second wheel was an absolute must and that getting Geno and Neal a third wheel was just a need.

Tangradi, Glass, Kennedy, Jeffrey, and now Boychuk have corrected me. The L2 LW situation is a cluster****.

Honestly, I don't care how good any of those guys may or may not be in a bubble or how much any one of them may hustle. All of them have neutralized the Geno/Neal combo.

As you said, Jeffrey was the best of the riff raff, although that's not exactly saying much to put it politely.



I wouldn't even give it a couple of games. Right now, to borrow a famous saying (), that line is looking worse and worse each day, and right now they're playing like it's next week. And, Boychuk has gone from a guy who seemed like he had the potential go get it to a guy who's become Kennedy 2.0 with Malkin and Neal.

Its really hard to tell who the Pens can acquire that would be a really good fit for that line. A righthanded shot with skill would be a start and something that hasn't been experimented with.

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02-05-2013, 09:20 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Who's throwing away games? If it's hurting the team, then clearly you change it back. Not that hard.

There's zero possibility it hurts both lines. You already know what Kunitz-Malkin-Neal looks like, or are you just throwing away last season when that line was the best in the NHL?

It MIGHT hurt Crosby's, it MIGHT help his, or it MIGHT, end up being the same. In that case you again have one line working and one line not working. At that point in time you can decide to change it back.


Sidney Crosby is actually leading the team in shots on goal.

Also Dupuis "for all of his frustrating attributes, plays a fast, hard-nosed game that actually meshes with Crosby."

Also Boychuk has looked good with Crosby when he had a chance to play with him. I'd like to see if that's something they can build on. Boychuk is also a fast player who is supposed to be able to finish from time to time.



I also guarantee you, based on past playoff performances, having Kunitz and Dupuis on Crosby's line doesn't change the fact that Crosby will get checked very tightly. Why not actually try somebody different with him until we can make a trade?

Also how can you guarantee something you haven't seen? Crosby already plays with two players that play a straight line game that doesn't take a lot of pressure off of him.

As it stands right now it's Malkin's line that has "exactly 2 seconds of zone time."



Ok...? One line working and one line not working with everybody complaining about how Malkin's line can't be changed? I still can't figure out how this is a losing situation. You're just describing what's already happening.



And you have a line that doesn't work. Moving Kunitz AT BEST will improve the team. and at worst will fail and things will be moved back to where they are. Again, you haven't shown me a losing scenario.



And here's the crux of the issue. Malkin gets all the wingers. Ok I get that, but I don't care about that if both lines are producing. I do care if only line line is producing at the expense of the other though. If you can change that up UNTIL WE CAN MAKE A TRADE, then you do it. If it doesn't work, then like I said a million times, you change it back, and no harm no foul.
It's NOT about giving Malkin all the wingers (although...), it's about the fact that people saying Crosby looks like Crosby has actually just coincided with Kunitz getting his head out of his ass.

You are basically saying it's more important to get Malkin's line going than it is to keep Crosby's line going. You can try to say otherwise, but that's what you're saying.

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02-05-2013, 09:22 PM
  #536
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I think Boychuk has the IQ to work with Malkin and Neal. Problem is, in all honesty as I see it...Malkin has been f-ing around too much. Garbage passes, that light finnese hustle, and giveaway after giveaway. You get Malkin back to the play that made him league MVP, and Boychuk will start to get the points. Neal is limited on the points too...compared to what he could have.

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02-05-2013, 09:25 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
It's NOT about giving Malkin all the wingers (although...), it's about the fact that people saying Crosby looks like Crosby has actually just coincided with Kunitz getting his head out of his ass.

You are basically saying it's more important to get Malkin's line going than it is to keep Crosby's line going. You can try to say otherwise, but that's what you're saying.
For the first point, I don't think Crosby looks better JUST because Kunitz looks better.

For the second point, that's not even remotely close to what I'm saying. I specifically said it's more important to get BOTH lines going than to simply keep Crosby's line going. You can try to pencil me into another position, but no matter what you'll still be wrong about my stance on this.

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And here's the crux of the issue. Malkin gets all the wingers. Ok I get that, but I don't care about that if both lines are producing.

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02-05-2013, 09:31 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
It's NOT about giving Malkin all the wingers (although...), it's about the fact that people saying Crosby looks like Crosby has actually just coincided with Kunitz getting his head out of his ass.

You are basically saying it's more important to get Malkin's line going than it is to keep Crosby's line going. You can try to say otherwise, but that's what you're saying.
Most people think-- or should think-- it's equally important to have both lines going. I hope Ray Shero is one of them.

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02-05-2013, 09:32 PM
  #539
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I think Boychuk has the IQ to work with Malkin and Neal. Problem is, in all honesty as I see it...Malkin has been f-ing around too much. Garbage passes, that light finnese hustle, and giveaway after giveaway. You get Malkin back to the play that made him league MVP, and Boychuk will start to get the points. Neal is limited on the points too...compared to what he could have.
Respectfully, I thought that after the NJ game. Not now. Boychuk isn't winning physical battles like he was, and he's a lot more interested in having the puck on his stick than he was.

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02-05-2013, 09:34 PM
  #540
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The #1 thing the Malkin-Neal line needs is somebody to get them the puck, and create space. Anything that conflicts with that responsibility will conflict with that line's chemistry and ability to create offense.

Tangradi should have worked, but he didn't get those two the puck, even though he created space by crashing the net. Jeffrey should have worked because he did get those two the puck, but he didn't create enough space.

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02-05-2013, 09:37 PM
  #541
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You're right. I only wait Sid's line to work. You caught me.

Seriously some of you are hilarious sometimes.

edit: by the way, KIRK, you seemed to imply that Malkin was throwing a tantrum because he was playing with cast-offs. So when you put Crosby with Dupuis and Boychuk, in your world, should Crosby by killing someone? Just wondering, because I personally don't think Malkin was pouting, I thought he played fine, but I'm dissecting every play to the skate blade.
Just for the record, I never said that's what you wanted, and I never said those things about Malkin either.

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02-05-2013, 09:40 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
The #1 thing the Malkin-Neal line needs is somebody to get them the puck, and create space. Anything that conflicts with that responsibility will conflict with that line's chemistry and ability to create offense.

Tangradi should have worked, but he didn't get those two the puck, even though he created space by crashing the net. Jeffrey should have worked because he did get those two the puck, but he didn't create enough space.
THIS

Different dynamic but same concept as Sid's line. You need THREE pieces working together and the most important piece being the focal point of the line. Dupuis has been Dupuis all season. Once Kunitz got his head straight, the pieces were in place for Sid (still not ideal for the playoffs, but it works when this is happening during the regular season).

There's been ZERO cohesion with Geno's line. It's a train wreck. Jeffrey showed some potential, but he's now in witness protection. Boychuk showed potential in game one, but he's morphing into TK 2.0. That line is the Pens worst at ES the last three games. Next to no sustained pressure. Malkin and Neal completely disjointed.

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02-05-2013, 09:42 PM
  #543
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Jeffery showed Potential and in my opinion looked like someone who could stick. It was not necessary to put Boychuk on that line after the game Jeffery had. Jeffery has shown when given an opportunity in the top 6 he can produce. It was 2 years ago, but the kid has a shot and the hockey mind. Dumb move not giving him at least a 10 game opportunity.

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02-05-2013, 09:43 PM
  #544
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I liked Boychuk's game out there tonight the most so far, but his most obvious weakness showed up a couple times again. This kid is not strong on his skates at all. If he has speed he can put some good checks on people but if he doesn't, he literally bounces off every player he comes into contact with and falls down about half of the time. He needs to strengthen his trunk (core / back, upper legs), big-time if he wants to stay an NHL player IMO. For a guy that short, he should be stronger on his skates. No way around that one. 10 lbs of upper body muscle wouldn't hurt either. He and Sutter can go train with Roberts this summer and perfect their stare while adding some much needed mass.

I have a feeling though... Jeffrey is going to be the guy that sticks. Tangradi is going to end up trade filler IMO.

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02-05-2013, 09:44 PM
  #545
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The kid has played well. He made one nice pass back to Bortuzzo that hit the post and another nice pass into the slot area that wasn't finished too. Created two pretty good chances there and that's in a game where he only got 11 minutes because of the penalty fest game that was going on.

There is absolutely no reason to dump this kid unless Shero has a trade for a sure fire upgrade lined up and even then I'd much rather let Jeffrey and/or Tangradi go and keep developing this guy. He's flashed potential much more than the other two.

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02-05-2013, 09:46 PM
  #546
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I liked Boychuk's game out there tonight the most so far, but his most obvious weakness showed up a couple times again. This kid is not strong on his skates at all. If he has speed he can put some good checks on people but if he doesn't, he literally bounces off every player he comes into contact with and falls down about half of the time. He needs to strengthen his trunk, big-time if he wants to stay an NHL player IMO. For a guy that short, he should be stronger on his skates. No way around that one.
Boychuk's game in a bubble is fine. IMO, what he does is makes TK expendable. As a third wheel for Malkin and Neal, he doesn't cut it. I thought maybe there was some potential there after NJ, but his growing 'confidence' seems to entail an emergence of TK style tunnel vision and puck management. One can see glimpses with each passing shift why he washed out in Carolina.

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The kid has played well. He made one nice pass back to Bortuzzo that hit the post and another nice pass into the slot area that wasn't finished too. Created two pretty good chances there and that's in a game where he only got 11 minutes because of the penalty fest game that was going on.

There is absolutely no reason to dump this kid unless Shero has a trade for a sure fire upgrade lined up and even then I'd much rather let Jeffrey and/or Tangradi go and keep developing this guy. He's flashed potential much more than the other two.
While one could argue that Boychuk in his first game looked better with Malkin and Neal than Jeffrey did in his only game, Boychuk has looked worse and worse still in his subsequent two outings.

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02-05-2013, 09:49 PM
  #547
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Boychuk's game in a bubble is fine. IMO, what he does is makes TK expendable. As a third wheel for Malkin and Neal, he doesn't cut it. I thought maybe there was some potential there after NJ, but his growing 'confidence' seems to entail an emergence of TK style tunnel vision and puck management. One can see glimpses with each passing shift why he washed out in Carolina.
I'm not much for reading tea leaves but I'm not even sure he's a good Kennedy replacement at this point. Clearly just as fast and smarter... but nowhere near as strong on his skates as TK. And I'm the first to throw TK on the trade bus.

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02-05-2013, 09:51 PM
  #548
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While one could argue that Boychuk in his first game looked better with Malkin and Neal than Jeffrey did in his only game, Boychuk has looked worse and worse still in his subsequent two outings.
Eye of the beholder I guess. I thought he looked fine the past few games. He's had or created a scoring chance or two in every game so far.

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02-05-2013, 09:52 PM
  #549
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I'm not much for reading tea leaves but I'm not even sure he's a good Kennedy replacement at this point. Clearly just as fast and smarter... but nowhere near as strong on his skates as TK. And I'm the first to throw TK on the trade bus.
Yes . . .

Seriously, what concerns me about Boychuk is that he went from a guy who was playing a faster, more physical Jeffrey style game to TK 2.0 in three games. Go look at how he was working with Malkin and Neal in NJ. Now, look at how he's working as his confidence 'emerges'. It's getting worse.

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Eye of the beholder I guess. I thought he looked fine the past few games. He's had or created a scoring chance or two in every game so far.
If the purpose of a third wheel on a line with Malkin and Neal is to get one or two scoring chances a game and pretty much help Malkin and Neal get none, then Boychuk HAS looked good since the NJ game.

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02-05-2013, 09:53 PM
  #550
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Some of that is probably Bylsma's influence (telling him to play TK's game effectively)... which ironically could make your theory correct if these guys decide to take a chance on him and bulk him up this summer. After we got him, Bylsma was not talking about his skill, he was talking about his speed and "grit" if I remember right... so he's probably telling him very specifically what he wants from him. Playing on Malkin's line could be nothing more than a confidence booster short term (i.e. they have no intention of leaving him there for an extended period).

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