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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread III

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Old
02-06-2013, 01:23 AM
  #26
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
I think these players are so good that they could adjust to any forward position over the haul of an entire season, but putting someone out of their traditional position lowers their effectiveness - and the voters would pick up on that.
I think there's definitely some wings that could never really play center effectively, but I think almost all centers could adjust to being a wing with time.

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02-06-2013, 01:31 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I think there's definitely some wings that could never really play center effectively, but I think almost all centers could adjust to being a wing with time.
I generally agree, but I also believe that "in time" is not necessarily just one season.

I hate the idea of taking imperfect centers and just dumping them on the wing when their real-life managers didn't do it. It's more fantasy hockey than hockey history. The idea of putting Phil Esposito on the wing is just brutal.

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02-06-2013, 01:39 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Players are not just a collection of skills. Real hockey is not unlike the ATD in the sense that great centers are more plentiful than great wingers. If these players were so easy to convert to the wing, why didn't their real-life coaches do it? I think your method is more than a bit dismissive of the actual history of hockey.
nels stewart and marty barry both played LW sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I think there's definitely some wings that could never really play center effectively, but I think almost all centers could adjust to being a wing with time.
agree

a large number of C's already drafted have played W.

lemieux, messier, mikita, henri richard, nighbor, malone, yzerman, forsberg, fyodorov, dionne, perreault, maltsev, firsov, delvecchio, abel, ullman, hooley smith, nels stewart, mackay, malkin, datsyuk, barry, hawerchuk, lemaire

they may not have been particularly good at W, though, and most of them were probably better at C.

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Old
02-06-2013, 01:46 AM
  #29
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Looking at the current Blues' roster, many of the wings were drafted/played as centers.

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02-06-2013, 01:47 AM
  #30
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a little further discussion on Petrov

I couldn't do this quite properly, but here goes:

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Never once did I say Petrov had a bad WC AS record, and never once did I even mention Kharlamov. All I said was that Maltsev's WC record was better, and it is...
Actually, you said:
Quote:
I also think Maltsev was clearly the better player, which is backed up by his WC AS record
Maybe I'm being a nitpicker, but to me, WC AS record and WC record is not the same. And not all I wrote about Petrov (the stuff concerning his linemates) was stirred up by what you said nor was directed at you, sorry if I gave such impression.


Quote:
I don't quite know what to make of Petrov, and comparing him to post-'76 Kharlamov doesn't really further the conversation, IMO, as Kharlamov was not the same player after that first car crash. Comparing IIHF all-star berths between he and Mikhailov doesn't help much, either, as right wing was a much deeper position at the top end during that era (Maltsev being but one of an excellent group against which Mikhailov competed).

Petrov scored a lot of points, but for some reason, the Soviet MVP voters consistently did not like him very much. Twice, he led the league in points (69-70 and 77-78), and was not even an all-star in the Soviet league. He led the league in scoring a total of five times, and also placed 2nd, 3rd, 5th in other seasons, and yet was top-5 in MVP voting only three times, never winning it. The frustrating thing about Petrov is that there was obviously some deficiency that the Soviet voters had identified, but we don't know precisely what it was. There are a number of theories. Maybe Soviet league MVP voting was closely tied to international performance, and the Soviet voters didn't care for his performances on international ice? Maybe he was viewed as leetching off of superior linemates? Maybe his defensive game was poor? There's something that doesn't quite add up with Petrov, but we don't know precisely what it is. He seems to be something less than the sum of his parts.

My own vague memories of Petrov in international play are that he was a skilled centerman who didn't really stand out. He was neither fast nor slow, neither soft nor physical, and made a lot of simple plays well without producing the occasional bursts of brilliance for which Kharlamov and Mikhailov are remembered. Petrov was quite clearly a good player, but I think also quite clearly a lesser player than his wings. Is he unfairly underrated because he stood in the shadow of two Soviet legends? Is he overrated because playing on the Army line was flattering to his statistics? I can't answer these questions. Petrov's career is a persistent mystery to me.
Comparing him with post-1976 Kharlamov was to point out that as Kharlamov was waning, it did not seem to have any effect on Petrov's play/stats. BTW, in a Finnish sportsbook it is said that a Russian coach was thinking about dropping Kharlamov from the top line (after Kharlamov's accident), but after strong resistance from Mikhailov and Petrov, the line stayed intact.
In the 1971-72 season, Petrov centered Mikhailov and Yuri Blinov (<-- he is not going to get picked here, right?), and again he was the top scorer of the line (37 pts to Mikhailov's 33 and Blinov's 34). There's little evidence that he was heavily dependent on his linemates (though vice versa may be true also).

But I can't say much about the Soviet league (I think everybody here can only rely on stats), but I can definitely say that he was NOT poor defensively in international competition, that's out of the question; quite the opposite, actually. Of course, that's only my eyewitness account, which does not mean much here, which is fair enough.

Quote:
Definitly an overrated centerman. Dont really know why he was picked this high. When you say not soft nor physical I'll disagree. When push come to shove it was often Petrov who got shoved. I even think Maltsev was openly critical after a game where Petrov snuck off the ice when things got a bit hot.

He is not bad, he's just not this good.
I have about 40 games with USSR/CSKA and Petrov on DVD and - cross my heart - I can honestly say that I've never seen any evidence of that. A few lapses of concentration, a bad pass here and there, but this...
Actually, I'm quite shocked by this assumption that Petrov was soft. Firstly, he was big and strong (clearly bigger and stronger than Mikhailov, for example) for a Soviet player. Maybe I'm confusing strength with physicality a bit, but I can also remember many instances of Petrov mixing it up, even with Canadian players. And I certainly don't remember him being shoved around/manhandled. Why did the coaches use him on the penalty kill so much, if he was such a pushover? For his 'breakaway speed'?

"He is not bad". Should that be carved on his tombstone?
- - - - - - - - - -

It is a bit tiresome to bring out Chidlovski, but he definitely watched a ton of Petrov in his time and this is his minibio from the 1974 Summit series site (with important parts to the discussion bolded):

Quote:
Vladimir Petrov obviously belongs to the list of the glorious centers in the Soviet hockey history. He was a vital playmaker of the legendary Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov line in Team USSR and Red Army Club.

Petrov established himself as a sound 2-way forward. He was a very fine powerplay and penaltykilling player. His skill set included slick playmaking, incredible chemistry with his wings, top level 1-on-1 mastery and an extremely powerful and accurate splashot that led Petrov to many scoring titles.

In defense, he was known for outstanding physical play equal to the level of the best Soviet blueliners.
http://www.chidlovski.net/1974/74_pl...?playerid=ru16

It's like are we all talking about the same player here? The 'ATD view' seems to be that "he was mostly a shooter". The bio is notable also because usually Chidlovski only goes gaga over very skilled players like Kharlamov, Balderis and, well, Maltsev.

For the record, I do think Maltsev was a better player, just not "clearly better". And if I was a coach and it was a big game, I think I would have a little more confidence in Petrov than in Maltsev.


Last edited by VMBM: 02-06-2013 at 02:01 AM.
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Old
02-06-2013, 01:52 AM
  #31
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The Eskimos selects Darryl Sittler, C


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Old
02-06-2013, 02:02 AM
  #32
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Damn you Nalyd, you used the pick I traded you to get the player I tried to move up to grab in this round.

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Old
02-06-2013, 02:22 AM
  #33
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The only reservation I have about Martin St. Louis at this point is that I think his two-way game is getting overrated in the ATD. Other than the Hart season in which he finished 4th in the voting, he has never gotten more than token Selke support. I view St. Louis as a reliable, up-and-down the wing checker, not a defensive dynamo. That being said, he was on my list of top-5 forwards available at this pick.


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02-06-2013, 02:37 AM
  #34
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I think he'd look great with Hull and Fedorov.

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Old
02-06-2013, 02:56 AM
  #35
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I think he'd look great with Hull and Fedorov.
He absolutely would have.

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02-06-2013, 02:59 AM
  #36
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He placed Lemaire on the 4th line in his roster post.

I truly hate seeing players out of position anyway , especially in this draft where we're suppose to honor their career , which happened at a specific position(s).
How is Lemaire out of position? He is gonna play C.

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02-06-2013, 03:01 AM
  #37
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How is Lemaire out of position? He is gonna play C.
He is out of position as 3rd or 4th centre.

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02-06-2013, 03:13 AM
  #38
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He is out of position as 3rd or 4th centre.
Don't buy this. Apart from role-players with special skills, almost every forward drafted was a real-world 1st/2nd line forward. I'm curious about the strategy of going C-C-C-C-D-D in the first 6 rounds, but we'll see how it goes. The one thing that gives me pause is using a 6th round pick on a forward who's (apparently) only going to play 6 or 7 minutes a game. Other teams use their 6 on a 2C (18 mins/game), 2D (23 mins) or a goalie (60 mins) ... we'll see how significant the voters think an advantage at 4C is.

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Old
02-06-2013, 03:16 AM
  #39
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going to play 6 or 7 minutes a game
Not gonna be the case. I am planning on splitting the ice-time evenly among the 4F lines.

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02-06-2013, 03:30 AM
  #40
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Not gonna be the case. I am planning on splitting the ice-time evenly among the 4F lines.
That's a really interesting strategy. A really up-tempo game, I guess. With the right coach, it could work out well.

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02-06-2013, 03:41 AM
  #41
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A question to the Wings fans - can Datsyuk play RW at all, or just LW?

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Old
02-06-2013, 03:46 AM
  #42
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That's a really interesting strategy. A really up-tempo game, I guess. With the right coach, it could work out well.
I'm skeptical. "Interesting strategy" may just be a euphemism for "minimizing the positive impact of Syl Apps."

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02-06-2013, 03:53 AM
  #43
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I'm skeptical. "Interesting strategy" may just be a euphemism for "minimizing the positive impact of Syl Apps."
The 90's Red Wings had a lot of success rolling four lines in the postseason, and teams in the past (going all the way back to the late 1920's) have won by rolling lines (ie. giving their starters fewer minutes than their opponents) and playing up-tempo, aggressive hockey. I'm not saying I think it will be easy to execute, but I don't see why it can't work in the ATD in theory.

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02-06-2013, 03:54 AM
  #44
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A question to the Wings fans - can Datsyuk play RW at all, or just LW?
He can play wing, but he is MUCH better at C.

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02-06-2013, 04:02 AM
  #45
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He can play wing, but he is MUCH better at C.
Hes great at changing positions on the fly tho.

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02-06-2013, 04:15 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The 90's Red Wings had a lot of success rolling four lines in the postseason, and teams in the past (going all the way back to the late 1920's) have won by rolling lines (ie. giving their starters fewer minutes than their opponents) and playing up-tempo, aggressive hockey. I'm not saying I think it will be easy to execute, but I don't see why it can't work in the ATD in theory.
The 1990's Red Wings had very impressive lineup with 4 quality lines. In theory it can work, but I'm waiting to see which wingers Reds is gonna select in the 600's that going to play 12 minutes+ and only 4-5 minutes less than Syl Apps/Sidney Crosby.

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02-06-2013, 04:28 AM
  #47
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The 1990's Red Wings had very impressive lineup with 4 quality lines. In theory it can work, but I'm waiting to see which wingers Reds is gonna select in the 600's that going to play 12 minutes+ and only 4-5 minutes less than Syl Apps/Sidney Crosby.
Bingo. Those Red Wings, Stars, Avalanche and Devils teams had a huge margin of error ... it would have taken some really bad coaching to make those squads average.

Again, not saying it can't work, I'm just really curious about how it's going to work here.

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:32 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
nels stewart and marty barry both played LW sometimes.
I believe Barry skated at LW briefly as a young player in Boston because the Bruins had Stewart at C at that point. Yet another case in point as to why Stewart should not play the wing. Twice in his career, with Barry in Boston and Smith in Montreal, his coaches chose to convert other centers to the wing rather than move Nels. There was evidently some experiment in Montreal with Stewart playing LW, but he ultimately moved back to center. Surely, there is a reason for that.

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02-06-2013, 04:41 AM
  #49
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I believe Barry skated at LW briefly as a young player in Boston because the Bruins had Stewart at C at that point. Yet another case in point as to why Stewart should not play the wing. Twice in his career, with Barry in Boston and Smith in Montreal, his coaches chose to convert other centers to the wing rather than move Nels. There was evidently some experiment in Montreal with Stewart playing LW, but he ultimately moved back to center. Surely, there is a reason for that.
From what I recall, the informed speculation last time was

1) Nels was only useful as a hockey player close to the net, and he was a very slow skater. As C, he could get to the net much more efficiently.

2) Similar to #1, either wouldn't chase down loose pucks, or having him chase loose pucks wasn't the best use of his talents, and lining up at C, again, made him start closer to the net than to the corners.

3) He was very good at faceoffs and this would be wasted at wing.

All of these apply to Esposito too I think, except that Esposito was actually a very good playmaker in the offensive zone (even before coming to Boston) - he just wasn't good at skating with the puck in open ice.

When Esposito played in the 1972 Summit Series, he usually centered grinders like in Boston, but in the 1976 Canada Cup, he centered Marcel Dionne and Guy Lafleur. Interesting that they moved Dionne, not Esposito to wing.

I would not use Stewart or Esposito at wing.


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Old
02-06-2013, 05:12 AM
  #50
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All of these apply to Esposito too I think, plus the fact that Esposito was actually a very good playmaker (even before coming to Boston) if he didn't have to actually skate with the puck.
In Espo's case (which I saw with my own eyes), the Bruins offense was set up to be able to feed Espo the puck from multiple angles of attack. They could bring the puck up either wing and play it to Espo at the net for the shot. This could only work with him playing center. At the very least during his S Line years in Montreal, that also seems to have been how Stewart's coaches built the offense around him.

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