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Game 9 | Calgary Flames @ Detroit Red Wings | 7:30 PM EST | FS-D (HD)

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Old
02-06-2013, 10:08 AM
  #601
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it's amazing how much people whine about how bad the bottom six has been

Helm and Samuelsson have been injured all year

it's as if people have absolutely zero sense of context whatsoever

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02-06-2013, 10:09 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
The bottom six has been worthless for quite some time. It always gets shutdown during the playoffs. Now it just sucks in the regular season too.
always so pessimistic Wheel. Is your plan Nyq/Tatar 3rd scoring line?
Or trading then for legit 2nd liners/3rd liners who can play?

Optimism man optimism.

Sure our team is worse and getting worse, but that doesn't mean we will not secretly get better due to poor play this season (forced changes by management, forced young players playing etc)

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02-06-2013, 10:12 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
always so pessimistic Wheel. Is your plan Nyq/Tatar 3rd scoring line?
Or trading then for legit 2nd liners/3rd liners who can play?

Optimism man optimism.

Sure our team is worse and getting worse, but that doesn't mean we will not secretly get better due to poor play this season (forced changes by management, forced young players playing etc)
Play nyquist on the third line and dump Cleary in the press box or a retirement community.

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02-06-2013, 10:12 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
it's amazing how much people whine about how bad the bottom six has been

Helm and Samuelsson have been injured all year

it's as if people have absolutely zero sense of context whatsoever
While that is true, Helm doesn't provide much offensively, and I have my doubts about Samuelsson's impact. I don't think the difference of adding Helm and Samuelsson is going to all of a sudden make our bottom 6 relevant.

edit: Maybe tougher to play against, which is admittedly very helpful, but I don't think bringing those 2 back in will turn our 3rd line into a great threat of any type.

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02-06-2013, 10:18 AM
  #605
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It really boggled my mind how anyone can call this a good team. Its a jumbled miss with a couple good pieces and that's about. Nothing about the Wings current state screams good or team. There no cohesion or identity on the ice and no identifiable plan off it.
And the worst part. Management doesn't do anything to change it, and haven't for several years now.

It's plain flat EMBARASSING.

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02-06-2013, 10:19 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
While that is true, Helm doesn't provide much offensively, and I have my doubts about Samuelsson's impact. I don't think the difference of adding Helm and Samuelsson is going to all of a sudden make our bottom 6 relevant.

edit: Maybe tougher to play against, which is admittedly very helpful, but I don't think bringing those 2 back in will turn our 3rd line into a great threat of any type.
at this point any threat will be an upgrade.

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02-06-2013, 10:23 AM
  #607
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I'm with you on this idea and have been since I heard Lidstrom was retiring and our big splash free agent signings were Tootoo (who I have liked thus far), and Samuelsson.

I don't think we have to be cellar dwellers for years to come to fix this. 1 year of total ineptitude finishing in the top 3 in the lottery to hopefully land Seth Jones would solve a LOT of problems. If we are going to tank why not do it in a shortened season, less suffering for me this way.

I'm also of the opinion that if you're likely going to miss the playoffs you should MISS the playoffs. I don't want to finish 9-13...I want to finish where Edmonton/Columbus has been. I may be a pessimist and that is fine but I don't see this team making the playoffs, unfortunately I see us just missing it like Calgary/Dallas have done over the last couple years. This would be the worst case scenario.
It seems like we had a clear Plan A which I was fully behind: sign Ryan Suter and maybe Zach Parise and you can carry on as usual. That obviously didn't work out. So we ended up going with Plan B: roll with Cleary, Bert, Sammy, Cola and Huskins. I was not too impressed with this Plan B but was willing to wait and see how it works out. It's been beyond awful. We are in Pistons territory where we are hoping we can scratch and claw our way to the 8th seed. It's not a lot of fun to watch, all you need to do is read the game threads.

Speaking for myself I am obviously hard core fan. I am clearly not an excellence demander. I totally get that this team isn't any good, and I'm not naive enough to believe if I don't acknowledge it that it will just go away. I think I'm being positive and relevant to the discussion by being pretty vocal about pushing for Plan C: get your young guys into the lineup and if you have a crappy year that results in you getting a shot at drafting an elite talent then you should have a very quick rebuild on your hands.

Let's be real: Datsyuk probably has one more year left. Same with Bert. Z isn't getting any younger and he'll have more of a load to carry without Pavs. Mule is going to see his production fall off a cliff, it happens to all players his age and - oh, by the way - he's always had trouble staying healthy. On the flip side we do not allow our prospects to fully develop. Jakub Kindl is the poster child. We are seeing it this year with Smith not being a fully up to speed two-way d-man. Gus will not get full time NHL play until next year at the earliest and Tatar will have to wait at least another full season before he's given a shot. I can only imagine what the timeline will be with Ouellet, Sproul and Backman.

It's pretty easy to see where this is headed if the only option Ken Holland can wrap his head around is Plan B: sign older veteran players who have solid cap hits but will never replace the elite talent that has left the organization over the past couple years.

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02-06-2013, 10:24 AM
  #608
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at this point any threat will be an upgrade.
I agree, and hope Sammy makes me eat my words, but I just can't see it. Obviously would love to have Helm back. He sparks the team in a way no other player on the squad can.

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02-06-2013, 10:27 AM
  #609
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It seems like we had a clear Plan A which I was fully behind: sign Ryan Suter and maybe Zach Parise and you can carry on as usual. That obviously didn't work out. So we ended up going with Plan B: roll with Cleary, Bert, Sammy and Huskins. I was not too impressed with this Plan B but was willing to wait and see how it works out. It's been beyond awful. We are in Pistons territory where we are hoping we can scratch and claw our way to the 8th seed. It's not a lot of fun to watch, all you need to do is read the game threads.

Speaking for myself I am obviously hard core fan. I am clearly not an excellence demander. I totally get that this team isn't any good, and I'm not naive enough to believe if I don't acknowledge it that it will just go away. I think I'm being positive and relevant to the discussion by being pretty vocal about pushing for Plan C: get your young guys into the lineup and if you have a crappy year that results in you getting a shot at drafting an elite talent then you should have a very quick rebuild on your hands.

Let's be real: Datsyuk probably has one more year left. Same with Bert. Z isn't getting any younger and he'll have more of a load to carry without Pavs. Mule is going to see his production fall off a cliff, it happens to all players his age and - oh, by the way - he's always had trouble staying healthy. On the flip side we do not allow our prospects to fully develop. Jakub Kindl is the poster child. We are seeing it this year with Smith not being a fully up to speed two-way d-man. Gus will not get full time NHL play until next year at the earliest and Tatar will have to wait at least another full season before he's given a shot. I can only imagine what the timeline will be with Ouellet, Sproul and Backman.

It's pretty easy to see where this is headed if the only option Ken Holland can wrap his head around is Plan B: sign older veteran players who have solid cap hits but will never replace the elite talent that has left the organization over the past couple years.
Plans B and beyond probably involved guys like Matt Carle, Jason Garrison, Rick Nash, or Shea Weber
Rolling Sammy, Cleary, and Huskins is clearly plan F, in both name and grade.

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02-06-2013, 10:30 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Let's be real: Datsyuk probably has one more year left. Same with Bert. Z isn't getting any younger and he'll have more of a load to carry without Pavs. Mule is going to see his production fall off a cliff, it happens to all players his age and - oh, by the way - he's always had trouble staying healthy. On the flip side we do not allow our prospects to fully develop. Jakub Kindl is the poster child. We are seeing it this year with Smith not being a fully up to speed two-way d-man. Gus will not get full time NHL play until next year at the earliest and Tatar will have to wait at least another full season before he's given a shot. I can only imagine what the timeline will be with Ouellet, Sproul and Backman.
Dats has been great this year. Watching him play you can tell he has plenty of jump in his stride. At points in the game last night he was flying. Z is an absolute BEAST out there. He looks like a totally different player than last year. Taking the C to heart. I don't you're dead wrong about those two.

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02-06-2013, 10:32 AM
  #611
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Plans B and beyond probably involved guys like Matt Carle, Jason Garrison, Rick Nash, or Shea Weber
Rolling Sammy, Cleary, and Huskins is clearly plan F, in both name and grade.
Possibly. If there's one thing I'll give Holland it's that he's willing to spend money for top end talent. He did so with Rafalski and he made a competitive offer for Suter. When it comes to trades Holland has no track record whatsoever. All he'll do is trade prospects (Matthias for Bert) or draft picks (for Brad Stuart). Those types of deals are not going to land Rick Nash. He'll never sign a RFA to an offer sheet so that was much ado about nothing regarding Weber. Oh right, he was going to try to trade for him.

We can say Holland would have done this or that, however there's no track record to indicate he can swing a deal. By comparison Paul Holmgren can and does make trades. He takes risks. This is not to say he's a better GM than Holland, only that if he swings and misses that's a lot different than Holland taking strike three yet again cause he didn't get a pitch he liked.


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Old
02-06-2013, 10:37 AM
  #612
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i am not sure it was or is acceptable that our pan A was to try and win the lottery so as to pay our mortage

thats usually a pretty stupid plan in life no matter what the scenario is

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02-06-2013, 10:46 AM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
It seems like we had a clear Plan A which I was fully behind: sign Ryan Suter and maybe Zach Parise and you can carry on as usual. That obviously didn't work out. So we ended up going with Plan B: roll with Cleary, Bert, Sammy, Cola and Huskins. I was not too impressed with this Plan B but was willing to wait and see how it works out. It's been beyond awful. We are in Pistons territory where we are hoping we can scratch and claw our way to the 8th seed. It's not a lot of fun to watch, all you need to do is read the game threads.

Speaking for myself I am obviously hard core fan. I am clearly not an excellence demander. I totally get that this team isn't any good, and I'm not naive enough to believe if I don't acknowledge it that it will just go away. I think I'm being positive and relevant to the discussion by being pretty vocal about pushing for Plan C: get your young guys into the lineup and if you have a crappy year that results in you getting a shot at drafting an elite talent then you should have a very quick rebuild on your hands.

Let's be real: Datsyuk probably has one more year left. Same with Bert. Z isn't getting any younger and he'll have more of a load to carry without Pavs. Mule is going to see his production fall off a cliff, it happens to all players his age and - oh, by the way - he's always had trouble staying healthy. On the flip side we do not allow our prospects to fully develop. Jakub Kindl is the poster child. We are seeing it this year with Smith not being a fully up to speed two-way d-man. Gus will not get full time NHL play until next year at the earliest and Tatar will have to wait at least another full season before he's given a shot. I can only imagine what the timeline will be with Ouellet, Sproul and Backman.

It's pretty easy to see where this is headed if the only option Ken Holland can wrap his head around is Plan B: sign older veteran players who have solid cap hits but will never replace the elite talent that has left the organization over the past couple years.
I'm not sure the kids are even plan C, or at least they weren't when free agency began. There was at least one guy, Salo, who chose not to sign here. I don't remember if there were others, but the Wings seemed to have a pretty definite "Anyone but the prospects" mentality once free agency hit.

I've been with you on wanting to see the kids get promoted, though. I'd rather see them than Miller & Eaves. I'd include Cleary, but I'd like to see him in a reduced role first. He gets a lot of flak for not being able to handle 16 minutes a night, but I think he still has more to give than Miller in 12-13 minutes. I sort of hate to say it, but Emmerton has grown on me this season. He's bordering on being a respectable fourth line center, which is a good sized step after his play most of last season.

edit: and what Dolph brought up with Nash, etc. There seemed to be a lot of smoke around potential trades, don't doubt Holland was trying to start a fire or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I agree, and hope Sammy makes me eat my words, but I just can't see it. Obviously would love to have Helm back. He sparks the team in a way no other player on the squad can.
I hope Sammy can light a match on the third line, too. Our bottom6 has an odd makeup to it, that doesn't encourage me much. Guys like Sammy and Cleary can be solid complimentary guys if they have someone skilled next to them who can shoulder a bit of the load, but when they are the line, I'm not sure they can consistently get the job done in the offensive zone. I have a feeling we'll see a lot of scrums along the side boards, the puck squirts free, and then the other team is coming back our way.

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Old
02-06-2013, 11:03 AM
  #614
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And the worst part. Management doesn't do anything to change it, and haven't for several years now.

It's plain flat EMBARASSING.
Two years ago, our bottom six was just fine. One year ago, we needed another center, but that was about it. It's not like management can predict the future and know when one player drops off a cliff, or another gets hampered with some of the most mysterious and unlucky injuries.

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02-06-2013, 11:23 AM
  #615
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Two years ago, our bottom six was just fine. One year ago, we needed another center, but that was about it. It's not like management can predict the future and know when one player drops off a cliff, or another gets hampered with some of the most mysterious and unlucky injuries.
isnt that the job of a pro sports mgmt team.. to predict the future with some certainty?

thats why they draft one player over another

thats why they keep one player over another

thats why they play one player over another

because they're doing just that.. predicting the future as they see it and thus must be praised when right and criticized when wrong

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02-06-2013, 11:42 AM
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isnt that the job of a pro sports mgmt team.. to predict the future with some certainty?

thats why they draft one player over another

thats why they keep one player over another

thats why they play one player over another

because they're doing just that.. predicting the future as they see it and thus must be praised when right and criticized when wrong
You can't predict the future. You can only make judgement calls based upon past patterns and hope they work out. There was no indication with the bottom six we were rolling out, that scoring would be a serious issue. If you look at all of our players' recent histories, I doubt even Holland expected it to be this bad, if bad at all.

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02-06-2013, 11:50 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
While that is true, Helm doesn't provide much offensively, and I have my doubts about Samuelsson's impact. I don't think the difference of adding Helm and Samuelsson is going to all of a sudden make our bottom 6 relevant.

edit: Maybe tougher to play against, which is admittedly very helpful, but I don't think bringing those 2 back in will turn our 3rd line into a great threat of any type.
not a major threat sure,but a somewhat respectable one

Helm put up 32 points two years ago and 26 points in 68 games(31 point pace over 82 games) last year playing with garbage,it's not unreasonable to think he could put up a pace around 35-40 over 82 games playing with Samuelsson

especially if the Wings got rid of Cleary and put one of Tatar or Nyquist in his place too(or Bertuzzi in Cleary's place with one of those two in the top six instead) we all know that will never happen though

and it goes beyond just drastically improving the 3rd line too,Abdelkader really doesn't belong at Center at all and moving him to the Wing should drastically improve his play


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02-06-2013, 12:10 PM
  #618
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I agree but despite what Holland has said about Tatar I fully expect him to be sent down to the 4th line after one shift.
Word

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02-06-2013, 12:17 PM
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You can't predict the future. You can only make judgement calls based upon past patterns and hope they work out. There was no indication with the bottom six we were rolling out, that scoring would be a serious issue. If you look at all of our players' recent histories, I doubt even Holland expected it to be this bad, if bad at all.
When they draft a player aren't they drafting him based on what type of player they predict he will eventually become? If they aren't they need to be looking for new jobs. And yes, knowing you, I can definitely do a lot better than them /sarcasm

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02-06-2013, 12:21 PM
  #620
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it's amazing how much people whine about how bad the bottom six has been
Helm and Samuelsson have been injured all year

it's as if people have absolutely zero sense of context whatsoever
I think they mean the guys that are actually playing. We could have the best bottom six in the league, but if those guys aren't on the ice, what good are they? They guys that are playing right now aren't getting too much done, and that's what they whining is about.

I understand what you're saying too, though.

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02-06-2013, 01:12 PM
  #621
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Complete failure. Lack of energy and discipline. Lack of intelligence. Total breakdown in team work and execution. No I'm not talking about the Wings, I'm referring to THIS GDT!

Wow I'm lucky I'm more than a fan of the Red Wings, I'm a fan of hockey in general. It wasn't a terrible game. Detroit was utterly suffocated by the Flames defensive play and hustle. Every pass, every attempted shot, etc., there they were. I think Calgary took notes from the Columbus win, it was a mirror of their strategy: Don't give the Wings any room to move.

The lame old comments of losing to bottom feeders...I'm not buying it. What if the Flames play well and get to the playoffs? We don't know who is who just yet. I told you yesterday the Flames mean business. They don't have the biggest superstars but their top players fly under the radar and obviously worked hard during the lockout. Glencross, Stajan, Giordano, Bouwmeester, guys I've seen for a few years look rock solid as of now. I love my team but I like the Flames and the feeling of games in Calgary. There is no shame in losing to a team like that.

One positive was seeing Tatar turn up his game in the 3rd. Looked like he had a chip on his shoulder.

Instead of preying like a vulture to find blame why can't RW fans enjoy what good we do have? There should be hope, at least for some well played entertaining games, which this was one IMO.

Acknowledging the injuries and depletion of skill we are simply going to have to work harder for wins. The Wings have to dig in deeper and grind out games the old-fashioned way- with heart and determination.

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02-06-2013, 02:36 PM
  #622
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Ericsson has gotten very good at the outlet passes. He's better at the transition out of the defensive zone once he gets the puck.


Still gets caught straying too far over pursuing the puck carrier in the defensive zone.

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02-06-2013, 02:47 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
You can't predict the future. You can only make judgement calls based upon past patterns and hope they work out. There was no indication with the bottom six we were rolling out, that scoring would be a serious issue. If you look at all of our players' recent histories, I doubt even Holland expected it to be this bad, if bad at all.
GMs who constantly make the wrong judgments about the future won't have a job very long.

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02-06-2013, 03:00 PM
  #624
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While that is true, Helm doesn't provide much offensively, and I have my doubts about Samuelsson's impact. I don't think the difference of adding Helm and Samuelsson is going to all of a sudden make our bottom 6 relevant.

edit: Maybe tougher to play against, which is admittedly very helpful, but I don't think bringing those 2 back in will turn our 3rd line into a great threat of any type.
You are wrong if you think that Helm won't instantly impact the game. He is a top third line center in the league because of his speed and ability to create scoring chances. He is hard for teams to handle.

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02-06-2013, 03:03 PM
  #625
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I want to know why our defense is getting beat up the middle on breakaway passes so often.

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