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10-13-1. "A bunch of donkeys on skates"

View Poll Results: What should the Caps do?
Tank and trade UFA's 1 20.00%
Tank and re-tool 4 80.00%
Trade futures to right the ship 0 0%
Stand pat, hoping they pull it together. 0 0%
Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-06-2013, 01:23 PM
  #151
IafrateOvie34
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
We were 6-14-1 21 games into the 2007-2008 season as well, and managed to right that ship and scrape our way into winning the division. It's highly unlikely, but not impossible.


What are you talking about? History says that George is excellent at selling assets.
  • Adam Oates for Maxime Oullet, 2002 1st round pick (used to trade up to get Semin), 2002 2nd round pick, 2002 3rd round pick.
  • Robert Lang for Tomas Fleischmann, 2004 1st round pick (Mike Green), 2006 4th round pick.
  • Jeff Friesen for the #52 pick in the 2006 draft (just months after trading the #67 pick to get him).
  • Tim Kennedy for a 2006 6th round pick (Mathieu Perreault).
  • Sergei Gonchar for Shaone Morrisonn, a 2004 1st round pick (Jeff Schultz), and a 2004 2nd round pick.
  • Peter Bondra for Brooks Laich and a 2005 2nd round pick.
  • Brian Sutherby for a 2009 2nd round pick.
  • Richard Zednik for a 2007 2nd round pick (Theo Ruth, later traded for Sergei Fedorov, and just months after he was acquired for a 3rd round pick).

Semin, Green, Laich, Fleischmann, Fedorov, Schultz, Perreault, and Morrisonn all were a direct result of him selling off assets during the last firesale. That's basically half of our playoff teams in 2008 and 2009. Four of those players are still with the team today.
I remember HF being all shocked on that trade.

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02-06-2013, 01:25 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
Unless its a goalie. (yes, Luongo)
Can't screw up much more than Poti and Neuvirth. (More on Poti who made no definitive move one way or the other IMHO.)

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02-06-2013, 01:29 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
Unless its a goalie. (yes, Luongo)
With his age and contract trading for Luongo would be a short term positive, but a long term liability.

If the Caps ride out with what they have this year to make changes in the offseason they might as well ride it out with the goalies they have and go looking for a veteran net minder.

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02-06-2013, 01:30 PM
  #154
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Dark for Bark

W@nkov for Barkov

WeBsinnin for McKinnon

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02-06-2013, 01:32 PM
  #155
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Ribeiro's may be a jerk, I have no idea - but he is indisputably a pro. And as a pro -- and a successful one who's not familiar with our strange, Caps-like ways -- it wouldn't surprise me if he was a bit taken aback by the degree to which Ovie free-lances and departs from the system, as well as his work habits. And it wouldn't surprise me if he's signalled that in some way. Remember this from last spring:

“I don’t want to say persons, I don’t want to say situations, but sometimes you just know like, some guys, if you didn’t play well they just look at you like, you know,” Ovechkin said. “Of course, you can see it, I can see it and somebody else gonna see it and it’s not the way we gonna win the game.”

You look at the game in Toronto last week: Ribs puts a perfect pass on Ovie's stick after a nifty zone entry with 4 seconds left in the game and Ovie misses the net from the circle. If I'm sitting at home saying how can he miss the net, don't you think some of his mates are saying that, particularly since it's been an issue -- and a fixable one -- for a couple of years now.

Part of being a pro is being willing to hold each other accountable. Maybe Ovie is still struggling with that.

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02-06-2013, 01:33 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
Ribeiro's may be a jerk, I have no idea - but he is indisputably a pro. And as a pro -- and a successful one who's not familiar with our strange, Caps-like ways -- it wouldn't surprise me if he was a bit taken aback by the degree to which Ovie free-lances and departs from the system, as well as his work habits. And it wouldn't surprise me if he's signalled that in some way. Remember this from last spring:

“I don’t want to say persons, I don’t want to say situations, but sometimes you just know like, some guys, if you didn’t play well they just look at you like, you know,” Ovechkin said. “Of course, you can see it, I can see it and somebody else gonna see it and it’s not the way we gonna win the game.”

You look at the game in Toronto last week: Ribs puts a perfect pass on Ovie's stick after a nifty zone entry with 4 seconds left in the game and Ovie misses the net from the circle. If I'm sitting at home saying how can he miss the net, don't you think some of his mates are saying that, particularly since it's been an issue -- and a fixable one -- for a couple of years now.

Part of being a pro is being willing to hold each other accountable. Maybe Ovie is still struggling with that.
Wait, Ovechkin missing a snipe is unprofessional now?

That would be literally the worst thing to hold against a fellow hockey player short of Joel Ward's penalty against the sens.

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02-06-2013, 01:42 PM
  #157
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My Missus is also one of the original Cap's board posters from the very 1st Cap's message board, and it's her belief that one of the main reasons Dale refused to continue was AO: he was making waves as he didn't want to play the style Dale employed.
Which message board was this? Was this on Prodigy back in 91-92?

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02-06-2013, 01:50 PM
  #158
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It's spooky - we are running the 94-95 lockout playbook, almost to the tee. We started like crap then, and still made the playoffs.
Jan 21 1–1 @ Hartford Whalers 0–0–1
Jan 24 1–5 @ Quebec Nordiques 0–1–1
Jan 25 0–2 @ Montreal Canadiens 0–2–1
Jan 27 5–2 New York Islanders 1–2–1
Jan 29 1–4 Pittsburgh Penguins 1–3–1
Feb 2 0–1 Buffalo Sabres 1–4–1
Feb 4 3–2 Florida Panthers 2–4–1
Feb7 1–2 @ Buffalo Sabres 2–5–1
Feb 8 4–5 @ New York Rangers 2–6–1
Feb11 1–1 @ Boston Bruins 2–6–2
Feb 13 3–5 @ Philadelphia Flyers 2–7–2
Feb 15 2–4 @ New Jersey Devils 2–8–2
Feb 18 4–2 Quebec Nordiques 3–8–2
Feb 20 0–2 New Jersey Devils 3–9–2
Feb 23, 5–5 @ Ottawa Senators 3–9–3
Feb 25 3–3 @ New Jersey Devils 3–9–4
Feb 26 1–1 Tampa Bay Lightning 3–9–5
Feb 28 2–4 @ Philadelphia Flyers 3–10–5

We have been terrible so far, and yet are only 4 points out of the 8th spot. The team is playing without any confidence or belief - you can see it drain before your eyes as the game goes on, to the point that by the 2nd period they seem to be asking themselves how are we going to lose this one. Ovie, in particular, is like a brooding doom and gloomer from, well, a Russian novel.

The lack of belief exacerbates our weaknesses - not enough speed, soft board play, lack of net presence, absence of scoring touch. All these things are symptoms right themseleves with a little belief and confidence.
Juneau, Bondra, and Carey made the playoffs possible. I remember ESPN blasting us about the start. We had a decent defense then.

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02-06-2013, 01:51 PM
  #159
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Interesting thought from the misses BT. Ovi is very likely the alpha male in the locker room.

Dale probably knew it was a battle he could not win. He limited his ice time... to ice that ego, and bailed. He probably had no idea how awkward it would be to get Ovi to buy into a team first mentality. He found out it's Ovi's team, and so Dale just tried to win one and got out.

Many hated Dale but I have often said the mark dale left on the team may not be known for a few years yet. He certainly took a big chunk out of Ovi's <presumed> ego.

You often hear about athletes being coach-able. I think I heard that about Alzner. Has anyone ever said that about Ovi?

Damn Semin!!

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02-06-2013, 01:53 PM
  #160
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Please tell me who you're suggesting they dump? Which 60% of the top 6 (and bottom 6) are you suggesting be moved....

It's easy to throw out imaginary numbers like "3-4 players in each of the top and bottom 6". Actually doing it and doing it WELL is another thing.

Do we even have the assets or cap space to make the trades and signings you're suggesting? I don't see it. And even then....still doesn't answer the biggest issue on the team. How do you turn around Ovechkin? This team isn't winning a Cup with him playing like this.
From this year's top-6: Ribeiro, Wolski, Brouwer/Ward

From this year's bottom-6: Crabb, Hendricks, Ward/Brouwer, Fehr, Perreault

Both Johansson and Laich should be made available for a package for an upgrade, but no idea whether to call them top-6 or bottom-6.

Make some moves, and yes, we have the cap space and assets to do what I'm suggesting.

And nobody really knows how to turn around Ovechkin. I think changing the complexion of the team around him is the best strategy. Get more speed, skill, and toughness.

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02-06-2013, 01:53 PM
  #161
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Wait, Ovechkin missing a snipe is unprofessional now?
Ovechkin missing the net with far greater frequency over the last two years is problematic -- but it's fixable with extra work and reps. Not putting in the time to address a fixable flaw would be unprofessional.

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02-06-2013, 01:55 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
Ovechkin missing the net with far greater frequency over the last two years is problematic -- but it's fixable with extra work and reps. Not putting in the time to address a fixable flaw would be unprofessional.
You're making an assumption that it's a repetition issue. He might be making these snipes in practice.

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02-06-2013, 02:00 PM
  #163
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I think if there is an issue between Ribs and Ovi its that Ribs is probably doubting Ovi's work ethic and how hard he plays. Ribs skates hard every shift and when he puts a pass on your stick I'm sure he expects you do do something with it. Also, I was noticing during the PP last night that Ovi looked like he was begging Ribs to pass to him and getting upset when he wasnt, yet he wasnt moving around and giving Ribs a place to put the puck. I got the feeling that they were getting frustrated with each other because Ribs wanted him to work and he wanted Ribs to just give him the puck.

Right now I think any problems in the locker room are squarely on Ovi's shoulders. He is playing like ass, he isnt trying on a regular basis, he's screwing up all over the ice with missed passes and shots/passes into opponents sticks/bodies, he is a mess and I get the impression he doesnt want to put any of the blame on himself and isnt trying to correct things. I'd imagine that gets old to his team mates.

However, I'm not in the locker room so I dont know, but it sure seems that everything is dysfunctional right now and I cant help but put that on Ovi right now as he seems to be trying the least on the team to actually change anything or willing to even try at times.

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02-06-2013, 02:02 PM
  #164
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Still 3 points out of 8th spot. If they continues to play like crap in the next 2 weeks, then do a fire sale.

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02-06-2013, 02:10 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
Ovechkin missing the net with far greater frequency over the last two years is problematic -- but it's fixable with extra work and reps. Not putting in the time to address a fixable flaw would be unprofessional.
Yeah, that must be it. Not like he sniped 38 goals with no support, sniped a bunch on Lundqvist and sniped around in the KHL.

No, he didn't score that goal because he wasn't working hard enough.

Someone should give the rest of our team the memo that you can learn to snipe if you just practice super hard.

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02-06-2013, 02:13 PM
  #166
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I have a feeling that jsykes may have hit the nail on the head. Something is clearly wrong with our team; Ovi, is our team. While a Bradley may point the finger at Semin, did he understand Russian enough to know?.

I wonder if stripping the C can be of some help. But it may be easier to support him, at this point.

Four C's and an F. A fine example you set.


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02-06-2013, 02:28 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Yeah, that must be it. Not like he sniped 38 goals with no support, sniped a bunch on Lundqvist and sniped around in the KHL.

No, he didn't score that goal because he wasn't working hard enough.

Someone should give the rest of our team the memo that you can learn to snipe if you just practice super hard.
Do you think he's hitting the net at the same rate as he was when he was scoring 50? His shot-on-goal stats don't show it, and the uptick in shots that miss the net is something that several posters here have remarked upon. But, whatever, why change your work habits when your production is declining.

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02-06-2013, 02:38 PM
  #168
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Who do you get rid of to make that point, though, assuming Ovechkin is off the table? Carlson is the closest thing to a somewhat reasonable target but not without a fairly capable defenseman coming back. In which case it's probably more of a lateral move where they give up the best player (or at least the one with the most upside). The big problem it seems to me is the country club atmosphere and lack of leadership. Bringing in different secondary leadership doesn't change much. It would need to be coupled with other smaller moves that threaten everyone's place or a change in GM.

I'd sadly probably side with Ribeiro. He probably is a dick but based on his comments to the media to this point he seems like he may be in an Arnott sort of situation (in awe of the permissiveness that pervades the org.).
I think you have to consider anyone not named Ovechkin and Backstrom....for the right deals of course.

Since you brought up 74...

If you swap a Carlson for a similarly talented player (either on D or forward), that may be lateral in terms of talent for talent, but i would hope that trade would shake up the chemistry of the team and be more than a lateral move in that area.

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02-06-2013, 02:41 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
From this year's top-6: Ribeiro, Wolski, Brouwer/Ward

From this year's bottom-6:
Crabb, Hendricks, Ward/Brouwer, Fehr, Perreault

Both Johansson and Laich should be made available for a package for an upgrade, but no idea whether to call them top-6 or bottom-6.

Make some moves, and yes, we have the cap space and assets to do what I'm suggesting.

And nobody really knows how to turn around Ovechkin. I think changing the complexion of the team around him is the best strategy. Get more speed, skill, and toughness.
Now tell me how trading out these minimal impact/short term contract players would shake the team up any more than the last 4 years of tinkering with the exact same type of players.

IMO, the continual swapping of those types of players has been proven to not work with the current Caps roster.

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02-06-2013, 02:50 PM
  #170
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hunter never made any signal that he was in it past the playoffs. maybe he didnt like ovechkin. my view is that hunter's use or lack there of, of ovechkin, backs up the basic kamikaze nature of his roster management and game strategy.

i think its also the case that it will be very hard to shake up the chemistry of the team as long as 8 is there.

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02-06-2013, 02:51 PM
  #171
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I think you have to consider anyone not named Ovechkin and Backstrom....for the right deals of course.

Since you brought up 74...

If you swap a Carlson for a similarly talented player (either on D or forward), that may be lateral in terms of talent for talent, but i would hope that trade would shake up the chemistry of the team and be more than a lateral move in that area.
I'm sure something around Carlson for Cory Perry can be done

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02-06-2013, 02:58 PM
  #172
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A little indignant that GM and Ted are no where to be found with any comments to the press on our fabulous first 10 start.. no doubt both are waiting for the beatdown we're going to put on the Pens Thursday

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02-06-2013, 03:01 PM
  #173
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Ovechkin and Backstrom play fundamentally different styles. Separate them and give them each complementary linemates and you can get two high end lines.

Backstrom is better at east-west/cycling style game. Get Clowe and Ryder. Clowe has the additional benefit of taking much of the physical game pressure off of Ovechkin and being a good enough fighter to protect our other players. Ryder has the benefit of being a one shot sniper and showing up for the playoffs. This line doesn't need much speed to be dominant, if anything everyone being at roughly the same pace helps.

Ovechkin needs north-south linemates with top 6ish skills. Setoguchi is on the outs, see if you can get him relatively cheaply. Kostitsyn will probably be looking for a cheap deal and he's also a guy who's had experience being a physical utility player. He could also fit with Backstrom and Clowe if we strike out on Ryder. Ovechkin - X - Setoguchi/Kostitsyn. That X should probably be a top 6 center (Ribeiro or Weiss for example). O'Reilly would be ideal. See if there's a way to cash Laich + Johansson + maybe some future for O'Reilly. Overpayment but who cares.

Assuming we tank hard enough for MacKinnon or Barkov, put one of them with Ovechkin and O'Reilly on the third line. Forsberg on the third line to learn the ropes as well. Other side needs someone fast, defensive and physical, say Clutterbuck or Winnik. Potentially end up with.

Clowe Backstrom Kostitsyn/Ryder
Ovechkin MacKinnon/Barkov Setoguchi/Kostitsyn
Winnik/Clutterbuck O'Reilly Forsberg
Chimera Hendricks/Beagle Brouwer

Two legit top 6 lines, 9 forwards capable of top 6 play, 12 forwards capable of 3rd line level play. Other than O'Reilly no one particularly a huge reach. MacKinnon or Barkov falter, O'Reilly slides up, they take 3rd line spot or scratched for the playoffs if we win a battle tested 3C.

On back end, need mobile defensive top 4 defenseman, preferably with a physical side. Smid fits the bill to a T, Lydman does as well. Hey, why not get both of them?

Alzner Green
Smid Carlson
Lydman Orlov
Erskine

Now we have a defensive group where the top 6 players can play at a top 4 level, 3 very good defensive defenseman, plenty of physicality throughout. All we need is an experienced goalie so that team has confidence. Backstrom, Howard and Nabokov could be up for grabs. Get one of them.

And, just like that, the retool is over.

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02-06-2013, 03:01 PM
  #174
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TomᚠFleischmann

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02-06-2013, 03:11 PM
  #175
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Here are the stats on Ovie hitting the net over the last few years. Source is http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_shot_...+9+10+11+12+13. Note that misses are only tracked 5 x 5.

Decide for yourself whether there's anything significant here. What jumps out to me is that he missed the net the same number of times last year (98) as he did in 09-10 (his last 50 goal year), but he did so while taking 40 fewer shot attempts.

Year Shots on/in Misses Miss %
Goal

07-08 – 298 137 31.5
08-09 - 325 145 30.8
09-10 - 253 98 28.0
10-11 - 247 102 29.2
11-12 - 213 98 31.5

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