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Old
02-06-2013, 10:02 AM
  #101
Crisp Breakout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
If Downie is worth a 1st rounder, Bozak is too.

Bozak puts up the same numbers, plays in all situations and is pretty good in the faceoff circle.

Downie might be more of an aggressive player but Bozak is a smarter player.

IMO, they are a wash. Typical HF always devaluing Leafs players and pumping tires on other team's players.
The only typical HF thing here is that you've managed to completely disregard the fact that Bozak is under contract for about 40 games.

EDIT: I guess there is another typical HF thing in that the dispute is over trading/trade value of a guy with a torn ACL.

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Old
02-06-2013, 10:46 AM
  #102
glucker
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Seen enough of Downie to know what he brings. Detroit definitely got ripped off trading their 1st for him, but that was a late first in a meh draft... and in the end they managed to fix their mistake by acquiring a top-4 dman for him.

But fine, I'll acknowledge that Vasilevsky(that's who Florida got right when all's said and done, right?) could be better than Quincey, if he makes the NHL.

Downie, however, is a negative impact on a team.


And don't think I'm just trolling here, I really really like Colorado. I think you guys have a hell of a team going forward... Lots of smart drafting, definitely gonna pay off.

There is just no way in hell anyone will convince me Downie brings more positives than negatives to a team, that a late first has more value than a regular contributor, or that O'Rielly is a better player than Kessel.

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Old
02-06-2013, 10:55 AM
  #103
Nihiliste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
Seen enough of Downie to know what he brings. Detroit definitely got ripped off trading their 1st for him, but that was a late first in a meh draft... and in the end they managed to fix their mistake by acquiring a top-4 dman for him.

But fine, I'll acknowledge that Vasilevsky(that's who Florida got right when all's said and done, right?) could be better than Quincey, if he makes the NHL.
I don't understand what you're on about. Colorado traded Quincey for Downie, and then Tampa turned around and flipped Quincey for a 1st. Detroit never made any move involving Downie and where does Florida come into this?

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Old
02-06-2013, 11:44 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by CoachBadkitten View Post
Uh no. A impending UFA isn't >>>>>better than a top prospect.

And Downie definitely has more value than Liles.
I don't think Michael Sgarbossa can be identified as a "top" prospect. Sure he's got potential but that's about it at this point.

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Old
02-06-2013, 11:47 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
Switch John-Michael Liles to one of Gardiner/Rielly and you may have a deal, but this is because I'm biased towards the Avs, especially O'Reilly. In my opinion, purely value wise:

O'Reilly = Kessel
Sgarbossa<Bozak (Simply because he's unproven, but I do love Sgarbossa)
Downie>Liles
1st>Nothing

So the Avs lose this deal
Kessel has much more value then RoR. It'd probably be RoR+2nd=Kessel, so yeah the 1st is way over payment. Especially since it could be a top 10.

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Old
02-06-2013, 11:53 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
Would you rather have Phil Kessel or Patrice Bergeron for a run at the cup? Because that is who O'Reilly has shown he can be, and I take Bergeron 11 times out of 10
I'd take Bergeron. RoR isn't bergeron though and really does not show Bergeron's skill.

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Old
02-06-2013, 01:47 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
Switch John-Michael Liles to one of Gardiner/Rielly and you may have a deal, but this is because I'm biased towards the Avs, especially O'Reilly. In my opinion, purely value wise:

O'Reilly = Kessel
Sgarbossa<Bozak (Simply because he's unproven, but I do love Sgarbossa)
Downie>Liles
1st>Nothing

So the Avs lose this deal
O'Reilly + 1st = Kessel
Sgarbossa < Bozak
Downie > Liles

Maybe a small plus from the leafs, but nothing much.

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Old
02-06-2013, 02:12 PM
  #108
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Why do any Avs fans think trading O'reilly for a 2 years of "skate down the wing and fire a snap-shot Kessel" is a good deal. I wouldn't make a one for one deal for him let alone add a piece.

On top of this I wouldn't trade Sgarbossa a promising prospect for Bozak. To me Sgarbossa is already as good as Bozak. He just needs a chance to show it.

The Avs definitely don't want Liles back and we certainly wouldn't be trading Downie for him.


Last edited by avsfan09: 02-06-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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Old
02-06-2013, 02:16 PM
  #109
CobraAcesS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsfan09 View Post
Why do any Avs fans think trading O'reilly for a 2 years of "skate down the wing and fire a snap-shot Kessel" is a good deal. I wouldn't make that deal for him let alone add a piece.

On top of this I wouldn't trade Sgarbossa a promising prospect for Bozak. To me Sgarbossa is already as good as Bozak. He just needs a chance to show it.

The Avs definitely don't want Liles back and we certainly wouldn't be trading Downie for him.
Yeah I don't even think Bozak's value comes close to Sgarbossa, AS A PENDING UFA. I like how many people conveniently leave that out.

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Old
02-06-2013, 02:20 PM
  #110
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So the main piece in the deal is Phil Kessel, but Colorado gives up a truck load in Ryan O'Reilly, Steve Downie, and what will likely be a top-10 overall draft choice.

JM Liles, who Colorado traded away only two seasons ago, and an impending UFA in Tyler Bozak, don't really sweeten the pot. Colorado would be a better team this season but not long term.

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Old
02-06-2013, 02:25 PM
  #111
CobraAcesS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
O'Reilly + 1st = Kessel
Sgarbossa < Bozak
Downie > Liles

Maybe a small plus from the leafs, but nothing much.
Since everyone is doing it...

O'Reilly + Top 10 1st >> Kessel / Kessel does not fit into the mold of what Colorado is trying to build an identity around. (Responsible hard to play against forchecking team) And that first is way way to dangerous to give up.

Sgarbossa > UFA Bozak

Downie >> Liles

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Old
02-06-2013, 02:59 PM
  #112
CellarDweller0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Topics on the first page in the Leafs forum:

- Kessel is the softest player in the NHL!
- John-Michael Liles, Compliance Buyout?
- Phil Kessel Discussion Thread. (no goals as of Feb 4, 2013)
- Is Tyler Bozak the worst first line center in the NHL
I'm not sure why you even bothered. This does prove anything about the players true value or the general opinion of a fanbase. It only takes ONE poster to start a thread remember? But I'll humour you because it's fun:

1-stupid thread. there are far softer players in the nhl ainec
2-a couple disgruntled fans, nothing to see here
3-Each player has their own thread with an updated status in the topic. so what?
4-Unanimously agreed within the thread that he isn't because even though he is playing on the first line, he isn't a first line centre.

If the only thing you are going to base Kessel's performance on is scoring then you should try and catch a game now and again. He contributes in so many ways each and every night.

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Old
02-06-2013, 03:08 PM
  #113
CellarDweller0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Actually it's detroit who got ripped off. Avs got to dump Quincey in the trade so we made out like Bandits,
So what your saying is that Downie's value isn't a first then right?

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Old
02-06-2013, 03:12 PM
  #114
Bubba Thudd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
So what your saying is that Downie's value isn't a first then right?
No, I think what he's saying is that Quincey's value isn't a 1st.
That's the player that was traded for a 1st, after all.

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Old
02-06-2013, 03:13 PM
  #115
Crisp Breakout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
So what your saying is that Downie's value isn't a first then right?
Oh goodness... Detroit got Quincey and gave up a first. Detroit got ripped off.

Quincey -- 1st

he says it's weighted towards the 1st... and somehow you conclude that Downie is not worth a first. I don't believe the transitive property applies to independent subjective valuations.

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Old
02-06-2013, 03:52 PM
  #116
CellarDweller0
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@ Crisp Breakout & Bubba Thudd

He also said when asked how Downies value could be a first...:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Cause that's what he got traded for last year? And he's only ingratiated himself to avs since then?
So which is it? Is Downie's value Quincy or a first? They aren't the same thing. Just because a GM overpays for a player doesn't mean that payment is the what other GMs will pay. As someone said earlier, would you pay 4 firsts for our elite goal scoring Kessel?

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Old
02-06-2013, 03:57 PM
  #117
glucker
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I don't understand what you're on about. Colorado traded Quincey for Downie, and then Tampa turned around and flipped Quincey for a 1st. Detroit never made any move involving Downie and where does Florida come into this?
Typed Florida instead of Tampa... seeing as I typed in the name of a Tampa prospect, that's not so hard to figure out.


Detroit dealt their 1st to Tampa for Downie, traded Downie to Colorado for Quincey, no?

That's the way other Avs fans described it.

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:00 PM
  #118
glucker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsfan09 View Post
Why do any Avs fans think trading O'reilly for a 2 years of "skate down the wing and fire a snap-shot Kessel" is a good deal. I wouldn't make a one for one deal for him let alone add a piece.

On top of this I wouldn't trade Sgarbossa a promising prospect for Bozak. To me Sgarbossa is already as good as Bozak. He just needs a chance to show it.

The Avs definitely don't want Liles back and we certainly wouldn't be trading Downie for him.
And people were saying I was trolling for not liking Downie

At least I watched the player before coming to my conclusions... you clearly have not.

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:21 PM
  #119
Crisp Breakout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
@ Crisp Breakout & Bubba Thudd

He also said when asked how Downies value could be a first...:



So which is it? Is Downie's value Quincy or a first? They aren't the same thing. Just because a GM overpays for a player doesn't mean that payment is the what other GMs will pay. As someone said earlier, would you pay 4 firsts for our elite goal scoring Kessel?
That doesn't make what you said any more correct. But let me pose this question, why do you care about the value of a guy with a torn ACL? It's really a moot argument.

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:22 PM
  #120
dahrougem2
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
This is why I love HF. Guy scores 40 and that's all you're "really getting". No biggy right.
Well you clearly like to pin-point things and make your own assumption there don't ya? Find for me in my post where I degrade Kessel as you've seemed to assume that I do by putting quotation marks around "really getting"? Guy's a fantastic player, but for some reason people on HF don't like to take into account other things that a player brings to the table.

And sure, go ahead people, make all the "LOL ON HF INTANGIBLES >>>>>> SKILL LOL" jokes you want, fact of the matter is, you don't win Stanley Cups with pure skill, because its simply not possible. You NEED players like O'Reilly, like Bergeron, like Dustin Brown etc to actually take charge of the team and the game, and O'Reilly is that guy. Some people may not see it and that's fine, just keep looking at stats, but stats don't fully identify a player.

Again, Kessel is one hell of a player, but the Avs already have a player like Duchene who's pure offense, and as one other poster already said, Kessel doesn't fit the mould of what the Avs are trying to build

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Old
02-06-2013, 05:39 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
And at this stage, he's pre-concussed. Concuss me once, shame on you. Can't concuss me again.
Concuss me once, shame on you.

Concuss me again...what was I saying again?

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Old
02-06-2013, 05:49 PM
  #122
avsfan09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
And people were saying I was trolling for not liking Downie

At least I watched the player before coming to my conclusions... you clearly have not.
It's kind of hard not to watch Kessel. Guy plays on the leafs, of course I've watched him. The point i'm trying to get across is he is very one dimensional and trading O'reilly for him would be awful for the Avs. I'd rather have O'reilly sit out the year, although I doubt that would happen.

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:35 PM
  #123
Muffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
Typed Florida instead of Tampa... seeing as I typed in the name of a Tampa prospect, that's not so hard to figure out.


Detroit dealt their 1st to Tampa for Downie, traded Downie to Colorado for Quincey, no?

That's the way other Avs fans described it.
Nope. Downie for Quincey first, then Quincey for the Wing's 1st. There was a period of 30 minutes to an hour where Lightning fans thought they were gonna keep Quincey before he was dealt. Downie is most definitely worth a late 1st 20-30 range.

But yes I'd do O'Reilly + a top 10 protected 1st for Kessel.

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:37 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
To Colorado:

Phil Kessel
Tyler Bozak
John-Michael Liles

To Toronto:

Ryan O'Reilly
Michael Sgarbossa
1st
Steve Downie

Thoughts?
Leafs shouldnt make any moves now...they are doing very well

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:38 PM
  #125
KingPuckChoo
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Originally Posted by Brewsky View Post
Concuss me once, shame on you.

Concuss me again...what was I saying again?
point is... if i get concussed... you cant concuss me again!

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