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If we do land Seth Jones...

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:25 PM
  #51
Foppa2118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Why do you say that, curiously?

I'd love Drouin as much as the next guy, but Jones seems more like our guy. Avs fan, Sakic's influence, serious need and his overall talent.
He's the prototypical Pracey player. Tenacious, high hockey IQ, great hands, and undersized. If they'll go off the board for Hishon, they'll take Drouin anywhere in the top 5.

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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Isn't MacKinnon about the same size, though?
I think they were listed about the same size at one point, but standing next to each other its obvious that McKinnon is bigger. They always fudge the numbers with smaller players.

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02-06-2013, 04:28 PM
  #52
Glasscog
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Our dpairings would be great if we got him.
Would it be :
1.johnson jones
2 elliot Siemens
Barrie-( beupre, Gaunce, I am spacing our other dmen)

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02-06-2013, 04:31 PM
  #53
henchman24
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Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
i didn't say forward's though. i meant and specifically said centers.
Stastny was the only guy for awhile(before him you basically have to go back to Drury). then we hit gold in Duchene and ROR in the same draft, got Hishon in the draft, acquired Sgarbossa. we also have Malone and Olver who can provide depth, Heard,Condon & Smith in the pipeline.
we didn't have that type of depth before, not at the center position, that's partially why Duchene and O'Reilly made the team out of camp a few years back.
When it came to centers, what was the real need to develop a high end center when you had Sakic and Forsberg as your #1 and 2 for the foreseeable future? Up until the lockout it looked like we would have two superstar centers, then we got killed by the salary cap. Teams claim BPA all the time, but that sort of stuff is taken into consideration all the time. No sense is getting 3 or 4 young hot shot centers when you can spend as much as you want on the two world class ones you have. Drury came on to the Avs as a #3C that eventually allowed them to move Forsberg over to the wing at times. It was more unexpected that he did as well as he did. Hinote was also developed at a bottom 6 center. McCormick became a 4th line center. Richardson was developing into a #3C before he got hurt and never regained form.

Some players the Avs moved to wing before they were given much of a chance at center like Tanguay and Wolski.

I'd actually argue that the Avs didn't even try for a top 6 center prospect in the 95, 97, 98 (switched Tanguay to wing immediately), 99, 01, 02, and 03. Pretty tough to develop one without drafting for one 7 out of 9 years.

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02-06-2013, 04:31 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasscog View Post
Our dpairings would be great if we got him.
Would it be :
1.johnson jones
2 elliot Siemens
Barrie-( beupre, Gaunce, I am spacing our other dmen)
I know dmen take longer to develop...but I really don't think Elliot's going to be an NHL player. Hope I eat these words someday.

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02-06-2013, 04:35 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasscog View Post
Our dpairings would be great if we got him.
Would it be :
1.johnson jones
2 elliot Siemens
Barrie-( beupre, Gaunce, I am spacing our other dmen)
EJ and Jones both play the right side and are right shots. It would probably look more like this:

Siemens-EJ
Hejda/Wilson-Jones
Beaupre/Wilson-Barrie/Elliott

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02-06-2013, 04:37 PM
  #56
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Maybe he just really wants to play with his old saskatoon blades partner??

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02-06-2013, 04:40 PM
  #57
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Just for curiosity's sake... I am more familiar with NFL draft deals, but am wondering:
If the Avs land in the top 3, and if a team like Columbus (3 first round picks) wanted to come up for a certain player what is the general value of the picks.
Ex: Avs holds the #2 pick
Columbus holds #5,9,11 picks.
Would the 9&11 for the 2 be of equal value or what would Avs have to add in terms of picks in later rounds.

This seems to be a deep top 20 or so, and just curious as to the benefit of getting 2 players (D and Wing) over 1 who may not be Jones, or a player capable of playing on the Wing. [Avs seem deep at center so I'm thinking a C who can't play wing may not be a valuable use of our pick.]

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02-06-2013, 04:43 PM
  #58
Nihiliste
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Elliott should be ok, hope he gets this injury healed up soon though. We rushed him last season but he showed some real dynamic offensive ability and confidence early on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasscog View Post
Our dpairings would be great if we got him.
Would it be :
1.johnson jones
2 elliot Siemens
Barrie-( beupre, Gaunce, I am spacing our other dmen)
Is this your projected lineup for 2016-17?

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02-06-2013, 04:49 PM
  #59
Nihiliste
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Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Just for curiosity's sake... I am more familiar with NFL draft deals, but am wondering:
If the Avs land in the top 3, and if a team like Columbus (3 first round picks) wanted to come up for a certain player what is the general value of the picks.
Ex: Avs holds the #2 pick
Columbus holds #5,9,11 picks.
Would the 9&11 for the 2 be of equal value or what would Avs have to add in terms of picks in later rounds.

This seems to be a deep top 20 or so, and just curious as to the benefit of getting 2 players (D and Wing) over 1 who may not be Jones, or a player capable of playing on the Wing. [Avs seem deep at center so I'm thinking a C who can't play wing may not be a valuable use of our pick.]

You're much better off to draft at 2nd than trade for those other low picks. E.g. Seguin > Granlund + Campbell, Landeskog > Hamilton + Siemens, Doughty>>>>>Bailey+Beach.

There are always really great players that drop to later in the first round or emerge fully later but what are the chances (Cowen, Couture, Tarasenko, Karlsson, Eberle) but really what are the chances you're going to get two of those?

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02-06-2013, 04:56 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Elliott should be ok, hope he gets this injury healed up soon though. We rushed him last season but he showed some real dynamic offensive ability and confidence early on.



Is this your projected lineup for 2016-17?
It'd be nice, but I'd hope it would be close. Probably a vet dman in place of Siemens.

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Old
02-06-2013, 05:01 PM
  #61
Nihiliste
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Originally Posted by Glasscog View Post
It'd be nice, but I'd hope it would be close. Probably a vet dman in place of Siemens.
There's no way we'd have 5 young D/propsects all on the team any time soon. I could see one of Elliott/Barrie being a regular next season if we don't destroy both of their development and then Siemens a year or two after. I personally don't think Gaunce or Beaupre will ever be regulars for us, but who knows.

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02-06-2013, 05:33 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
I agree with what you are saying for the most part, but I have never felt we couldn't develop forwards (including centers). Only 2 defensemen have been drafted by this organization and developed into top 4 by the organization. Liles and Shattenkirk, and Shattenkirk could be argued as he only really played a half season with the Avs.

I'm still not sure how well we do with goalies, but for the first time in seemingly forever we have a number of solid prospects. I think at least one will pan out (IMO Pickard will).

Impact players (top 6, top 4, starter or solid backup) Avs drafted and developed 2000-2009:

Forwards:
Svatos (2001) - top 6 until he was constantly injured, then a scrub
Jones (2003) - top 6 player when he isn't drunk
Wolski (2004) - top 6 when he cares
Stastny (2005) - top 6
Stewart (2006) - top 6 when he cares
Duchene (2009) - top 6
ROR (2009) - top 6

Defensemen:
Liles (2000) - top 4
Shattenkirk (2007) - IMO best defensemen drafted/somewhat developed since the organization was in Quebec

Goalies:
Budaj (2001) - solid backup, for goalies I consider that a success

Now we drafted Gilbert and Boychuk, but their development wasn't really with the Avs. Other fringe players like Sauer, Richardson, McCormick, etc. have come out, but I wouldn't call them real impact players.
And both of those D-men played college and developed their game there. Interesting.

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Old
02-06-2013, 06:01 PM
  #63
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No Aebischer? He was pretty solid for couple years.

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02-06-2013, 06:16 PM
  #64
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Trading Shattenkirk was a mistake, Elliott/Barrie suck.

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02-06-2013, 07:03 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Drij View Post
Trading Shattenkirk was a mistake, Elliott/Barrie suck.
Shattenkirk didn't make the NHL until he was 22.

Barrie and Elliott were 20.

I hardly consider that sucking

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02-06-2013, 07:09 PM
  #66
Nihiliste
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I have no illusions that Barrie will be as good as Shattenkirk but I think Elliott could get close in a little more time.

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02-06-2013, 07:34 PM
  #67
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Meh, rather draft a winger like Nichushkin instead, and trade ROR+ for a stud dman

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02-06-2013, 08:20 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
When it came to centers, what was the real need to develop a high end center when you had Sakic and Forsberg as your #1 and 2 for the foreseeable future? Up until the lockout it looked like we would have two superstar centers, then we got killed by the salary cap. Teams claim BPA all the time, but that sort of stuff is taken into consideration all the time. No sense is getting 3 or 4 young hot shot centers when you can spend as much as you want on the two world class ones you have. Drury came on to the Avs as a #3C that eventually allowed them to move Forsberg over to the wing at times. It was more unexpected that he did as well as he did. Hinote was also developed at a bottom 6 center. McCormick became a 4th line center. Richardson was developing into a #3C before he got hurt and never regained form.

Some players the Avs moved to wing before they were given much of a chance at center like Tanguay and Wolski.

I'd actually argue that the Avs didn't even try for a top 6 center prospect in the 95, 97, 98 (switched Tanguay to wing immediately), 99, 01, 02, and 03. Pretty tough to develop one without drafting for one 7 out of 9 years.
the Avs weren't exactly churning out top prospects at any position during the last few years before the first lockout.
our minors were not that great and hadn't been since the Hejduk,Drury,Tanguay years of development.
Forsberg was having injury problems and the depth was not that great. but still we didn't draft guys or didn't develop em when we did.

the Avs fell in love with signing free agents and making big trades and never learned how to properly build during the latter years of PL's run as GM.
doesn't matter what you have in the NHL, there is always a big need for high quality prospects in the pipeline.
a lot of other teams have adjusted to the last two CBA's and for some reason we haven't, that speaks to a internal problem and that needs to be rectified.

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02-06-2013, 08:22 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Colorado Avalanche View Post
No Aebischer? He was pretty solid for couple years.
That list was post 2000 draftees. Abi was a 1997 draftee I think. Abi and Budaj have been the best homegrown goalies though, what a terrible track record

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02-06-2013, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Colorado Avalanche View Post
No Aebischer? He was pretty solid for couple years.
he was taken in 97 draft, we were speaking of the 2000 and beyond years.

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02-06-2013, 08:27 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Drij View Post
Trading Shattenkirk was a mistake, Elliott/Barrie suck.
Shattenkirk never would have become the player he is if he didn't leave Colorado. He plays for a great coach, who has him in an ideal situation behind one of the best defencemen in the game. He would have put up ~40 points here, but he wouldn't have developed the defensive side of his game. He also would probably be paired with Wilson and used as a top pairing here. Trading him wasn't the mistake. Thinking Elliott/Barrie would provide what he does was the mistake.

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02-06-2013, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
the Avs weren't exactly churning out top prospects at any position during the last few years before the first lockout.
our minors were not that great and hadn't been since the Hejduk,Drury,Tanguay years of development.
Forsberg was having injury problems and the depth was not that great. but still we didn't draft guys or didn't develop em when we did.

the Avs fell in love with signing free agents and making big trades and never learned how to properly build during the latter years of PL's run as GM.
doesn't matter what you have in the NHL, there is always a big need for high quality prospects in the pipeline.
a lot of other teams have adjusted to the last two CBA's and for some reason we haven't, that speaks to a internal problem and that needs to be rectified.
I don't really disagree. PL never really seemed put much stock into the draft (other than using them as assets for big trades). The Avs only really seemed to pay attention to it when they knew a a rebuild was going to have to happen (post lockout).

Still if you look at the number of players that played 300+ games (roughly 4+ seasons when you account for injuries) that were drafted by the Avs (1995-2004) you have a pretty decent list of players (even if none of them are really superstars). Marc Denis, Brent Johnson, Pahlsson, Willsie, Hinote, Parrish, Nieminen, Parker, Skoula, Tanguay, Regehr, Vrbata, Radivojevic, Liles, Sauer, Svatos, McCormick, Gilbert, Richardson, and Wolski. Jones and Boychuk have less than 300 games but will get there. Not all of them were developed by this organization, but they at least scouted them and used them as assets.

Parrish, Skoula, Tanguay, Regehr, Vrbata, Liles, Svatos, Gilbert, Boychuk, and Jones were all used as top6/top4 for multiple years at some point in their careers.

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02-06-2013, 09:02 PM
  #73
Nihiliste
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Shattenkirk never would have become the player he is if he didn't leave Colorado. He plays for a great coach, who has him in an ideal situation behind one of the best defencemen in the game. He would have put up ~40 points here, but he wouldn't have developed the defensive side of his game. He also would probably be paired with Wilson and used as a top pairing here. Trading him wasn't the mistake. Thinking Elliott/Barrie would provide what he does was the mistake.
I disagree. Shattenkirk was good from day 1 in St. Louis. And excellent from day 1 under Hitchcock. He was already a great player here and the reason he looks better is as you say, playing behind Pietrangelo, with great support from his forwards.

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02-06-2013, 09:25 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
I don't really disagree. PL never really seemed put much stock into the draft (other than using them as assets for big trades). The Avs only really seemed to pay attention to it when they knew a a rebuild was going to have to happen (post lockout).

Still if you look at the number of players that played 300+ games (roughly 4+ seasons when you account for injuries) that were drafted by the Avs (1995-2004) you have a pretty decent list of players (even if none of them are really superstars). Marc Denis, Brent Johnson, Pahlsson, Willsie, Hinote, Parrish, Nieminen, Parker, Skoula, Tanguay, Regehr, Vrbata, Radivojevic, Liles, Sauer, Svatos, McCormick, Gilbert, Richardson, and Wolski. Jones and Boychuk have less than 300 games but will get there. Not all of them were developed by this organization, but they at least scouted them and used them as assets.

Parrish, Skoula, Tanguay, Regehr, Vrbata, Liles, Svatos, Gilbert, Boychuk, and Jones were all used as top6/top4 for multiple years at some point in their careers.
i know, but the Avs had some serious homer issues with some players over the years. we had some guys who should have been replaced way quicker than they were but we were winning a lot so the role players were there more for grit than for overall talent and production.

but still, production wise we did not get the consistency we should have from draftees over the years.

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02-07-2013, 02:19 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I disagree. Shattenkirk was good from day 1 in St. Louis. And excellent from day 1 under Hitchcock. He was already a great player here and the reason he looks better is as you say, playing behind Pietrangelo, with great support from his forwards.
It is worth noting that Elliott and Barrie are approximately 2 years younger than Shattenkirk. Barrie and Elliott are currently the age that Shattenkirk started to break out. Clearly neither has this year...but I would give both 1-2 more years before writing them off.

I don't think that Shattenkirk was traded purely because the Avs thought they had replacements in Elliott and Barrie....but moreso because they thought Johnson was going to develop into a Pronger type player, and a Pronger like player is worth Shattenkirk and Stewart. Jury is still out of course, but... Barrie/Elliott were just luxury assets. Honestly, I think the Liles trade was brought about more by Barrie and Elliott than the Shattenkirk trade, as ownership/management thought that they could be a much cheaper version of Liles.

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