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Stars Bench Goose Tonight

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Old
02-06-2013, 07:08 PM
  #26
Cin
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
Mike Milbury on NHL Live does not approve.
Was watching that as well. Glad he called out the horrible coaching this team has.

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02-06-2013, 07:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
Mike Milbury on NHL Live does not approve.
That essentially confirms it being the right move.

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02-06-2013, 07:24 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
So yeah ... I want to be happy about all these young guys already in the line up. I am, but I don't think it's that shocking to point out the team is hurting another asset by repeating mistakes of the past.
That's not an unreasonable thing to say, but the part where I find it unreasonable is that all of the "oh my god so bad!" reaches its peak when Gully finally actually does scratch one of the group of experienced players who constantly **** the bed.

It's one thing to say that Gully is a bad coach, but the decision to scratch Goose tonight is far from one of his worst moves.

But it all falls down the hierarchy of Stars board hate: Gully/Robidas->Morrow->Jordie Benn->Goligoski. So when the coach scratches someone further down the hierarchy, it's STILL bad.

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02-06-2013, 07:27 PM
  #29
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Well you saying the Stars board hates Jordie Benn is all that needs to be said.

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02-06-2013, 07:35 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CorwiN View Post
That's not an unreasonable thing to say, but the part where I find it unreasonable is that all of the "oh my god so bad!" reaches its peak when Gully finally actually does scratch one of the group of experienced players who constantly **** the bed.

It's one thing to say that Gully is a bad coach, but the decision to scratch Goose tonight is far from one of his worst moves.

But it all falls down the hierarchy of Stars board hate: Gully/Robidas->Morrow->Jordie Benn->Goligoski. So when the coach scratches someone further down the hierarchy, it's STILL bad.
Then you are attributing things to me I never said. I have not stated if this move is bad or not IMO, and I certianly haven't said anything negative about Gulutzan today.

The exact opposite is true. I'm starting to understand what Gulutzan is trying to accomplish. I had forgotten he was only given a 2 year contract, and he's in the terrible position of trying to win with a mediocre team. If I got my wish on every single roster spot, I still think this team will struggle to make the playoffs.

The only point i've made today is that this isn't a team that should be focusing on the short term.

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02-06-2013, 07:41 PM
  #31
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But how can you say they're focusing on the short term when they're playing more kids than ever?

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02-06-2013, 07:43 PM
  #32
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That's what Joe has provided Gully with. Seems pretty safe to assume Gully would love a roster full of vets.

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02-06-2013, 07:45 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
This isn't close to what I was saying. A Top 5 pick without significant injuries to this team is a fantasy.



It'll be significantly different. We've already watched Joe be reluctant to trade Modano and other veterans, but then he lets them walk via free agency because they didn't fit team needs. We've also seen him move veteran pieces lately in the leadership to remake the identity of the team.

One way or the other, I do believe this is Morrow's last year in Dallas, and I have some faith that Robidas will be gone at least by the time his contract expires if not sooner.

So .... you can keep forcing the vets in the lineup now, and I do believe they are only marginally better than the rookies/young guys, or you can go through the growing pains right now. Otherwise .. you're right. Next is just a repeat of this season which is a repeat of the last 4 season. How has this organization telling itself they can win right now turned out so far? Yep ... 4 missed playoffs.



Playing young players absolutely does not say this. Like I said above, if the veterans are better than the young guys, it's marginal, but I can guarantee one thing. The veterans are as good as they're going to get, and they're only going to get worst. Just like with Eriksson in the past, there's a very good opportunity you could be rewarded handsomely for suffering through some growing pains.

I think you have just as good a chance if not better to make the playoffs if you go ahead and commit to all of the younger guys on the 23 man roster. That means leaving the forward group the way it is. Those Top 12 are fine, but I wouldn't mind if some guys were moved around within it.

It's only a small move, but I do think it's important for Larsen to play. You can develop him like you developed Eriksson or you can develop him like you did Niskanen and Fistric. I'm not guaranteeing he'll be a future #1 D or even consistant Top 4, but I know he's not going to develop very well if he's not playing. I also know that as much as I've been pleasantly surprised by Rome, he's not the difference between this team winning or losing.

So yeah ... I want to be happy about all these young guys already in the line up. I am, but I don't think it's that shocking to point out the team is hurting another asset by repeating mistakes of the past.
You mentioned it before, and yet here you seem to go back on that point.

You can't fill a roster with rookies/developing players. With the way Gully's been coaching, if one guy makes a mistake and loses a shift or gets benched, every rookie starts gripping their sticks a bit tighter and is more likely to make a mistake.

When has this team ever had more than 2-3 rookies on it? I honestly can't remember, if we ever have in recent years, and that's not just a Stars' thing. Outside of bottom-feeders like Edmonton and Columbus, you just don't see it happen very often.

I'm having trouble coming up with the words to explain this right now, but I hope you can see what I'm trying to get at.

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02-06-2013, 08:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
But how can you say they're focusing on the short term when they're playing more kids than ever?
It's actually quite easy. I really do believe that the moves that GMJN made in the off-season were the right moves. That includes the players he didn't re-sign. They resulted in a decent purge of older veterans all while adding some potentially top quality scoring for Jagr and Whitney.

I'll consider Roy and Ribeiro as well as Rome and Pardy a pretty even swap, but the rest were moved or not re-signed in favor of younger players: Ott, Dvorak, Burish, Dowell, Petersen, Barch, and Souray.

It's not crazy though to say that it wasn't enough, and that the team is still in win now mode. We're already through 20% of the season and the tell-tale signs of a mediocre to bad team are being out shot and out chanced. Even in wins that happens. So yes, I've revised my expectations because a good chunk of the season is behind us.

The reason I don't think we should just except the very positive realization that young players are in the lineup is that teams don't have infinite resources. I don't think it makes sense to hurt one asset for the good of the team when you have a mediocre team at best.

To this point, the way Larsen is being used is a repeat of Niskanen and Fistric which both turned into failures in a Stars uniform. If Larsen was a member of the San Jose Sharks, it would make sense to go with a "better" veteran for the good of the team, but he's not. He's a Dallas Star who are quickly becoming a fixture in no man's land (no playoffs and no opportunity at blue chip prospects).

I agree with you that Larsen isn't playing because they feel like he's not the best Top 6 option on the team. I don't agree with them that he's not better than or equal to Rome though, and if they don't want 4 smaller defenders then why didn't they have a problem with it last year or this summer when it was expected that Larsen would be Top 6 option?

Like I said .. I already acknowledged earlier that it's greedy and a bit silly to expect more, but I do. Logically, at least IMO and several others on this board, this team is a point that they should worry more about maximizing assets, all assets, than how they match up on game day.

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02-06-2013, 08:03 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
You mentioned it before, and yet here you seem to go back on that point.

You can't fill a roster with rookies/developing players. With the way Gully's been coaching, if one guy makes a mistake and loses a shift or gets benched, every rookie starts gripping their sticks a bit tighter and is more likely to make a mistake.

When has this team ever had more than 2-3 rookies on it? I honestly can't remember, if we ever have in recent years, and that's not just a Stars' thing. Outside of bottom-feeders like Edmonton and Columbus, you just don't see it happen very often.

I'm having trouble coming up with the words to explain this right now, but I hope you can see what I'm trying to get at.
I don't understand, and I do apologize. I can't figure out what you are referring to in the first line.

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02-06-2013, 08:05 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
You can't fill a roster with rookies/developing players. With the way Gully's been coaching, if one guy makes a mistake and loses a shift or gets benched, every rookie starts gripping their sticks a bit tighter and is more likely to make a mistake.

When has this team ever had more than 2-3 rookies on it? I honestly can't remember, if we ever have in recent years, and that's not just a Stars' thing. Outside of bottom-feeders like Edmonton and Columbus, you just don't see it happen very often.
It doesn't really matter how many rookies the Stars have had on their team in previous years. The Stars have never had as many prospects and young players that are ready as they have now. Times change; what might have been prudent at one point becomes needlessly conservative.

Development and repetition are all that matters now. The learning-how-to-win stage comes later.

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02-06-2013, 08:12 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Then you are attributing things to me I never said. I have not stated if this move is bad or not IMO, and I certianly haven't said anything negative about Gulutzan today.
Well, considering that this thread is titled "Stars Bench Goose Tonight", and you come in and start complaining about how Larsen is being handled, it seemed natural to assume that you agree with some of the other people who think it's terrible to not scratch Rome instead of Goose. Just seemed like a "still not satisfied no matter what Gully does" type of thing. Maybe I was wrong.

Still, I also think that players can be ruined just as easily be rewarding their failure as they can by failing to reward success. I think it just sends the wrong message entirely.

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02-06-2013, 08:22 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
That essentially confirms it being the right move.
this.

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02-06-2013, 08:26 PM
  #39
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accountability is important. goose has been terrible at the details of game. it's a good scratch.

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02-06-2013, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CorwiN View Post
Well, considering that this thread is titled "Stars Bench Goose Tonight", and you come in and start complaining about how Larsen is being handled, it seemed natural to assume that you agree with some of the other people who think it's terrible to not scratch Rome instead of Goose. Just seemed like a "still not satisfied no matter what Gully does" type of thing. Maybe I was wrong.

Still, I also think that players can be ruined just as easily be rewarding their failure as they can by failing to reward success. I think it just sends the wrong message entirely.
Yeah that is shocking. Larsen came up in a discussion about defensemen.

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02-06-2013, 08:29 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Yeah that is shocking. Larsen came up in a discussion about defensemen.
Sheesh, no need to be that way about it. More like "shocking that the Larsen defense force comes out in every thread wanting him to play 40 minutes a night."

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02-06-2013, 08:31 PM
  #42
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Hooray hyperbole.

No, we want one of the team's better defenders who has significant growth potential to play regularly. The nerve.

For the record I don't agree with scratching Goligoski or Larsen.

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02-06-2013, 08:33 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
Hooray hyperbole.

No, we want one of the team's better defenders who has significant growth potential to play regularly. The nerve.

For the record I don't agree with scratching Goligoski or Larsen.
I'd personally prefer them to regularly scratch Rome, or better yet have never signed him. But scratching Goligoski for one night can't possibly be viewed as a terrible move. It just can't.

Edit: And I don't think it's outrageous to respond to needless sarcasm with hyperbole.

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02-06-2013, 08:35 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
It's actually quite easy. I really do believe that the moves that GMJN made in the off-season were the right moves. That includes the players he didn't re-sign. They resulted in a decent purge of older veterans all while adding some potentially top quality scoring for Jagr and Whitney.

I'll consider Roy and Ribeiro as well as Rome and Pardy a pretty even swap, but the rest were moved or not re-signed in favor of younger players: Ott, Dvorak, Burish, Dowell, Petersen, Barch, and Souray.

It's not crazy though to say that it wasn't enough, and that the team is still in win now mode. We're already through 20% of the season and the tell-tale signs of a mediocre to bad team are being out shot and out chanced. Even in wins that happens. So yes, I've revised my expectations because a good chunk of the season is behind us.

The reason I don't think we should just except the very positive realization that young players are in the lineup is that teams don't have infinite resources. I don't think it makes sense to hurt one asset for the good of the team when you have a mediocre team at best.

To this point, the way Larsen is being used is a repeat of Niskanen and Fistric which both turned into failures in a Stars uniform. If Larsen was a member of the San Jose Sharks, it would make sense to go with a "better" veteran for the good of the team, but he's not. He's a Dallas Star who are quickly becoming a fixture in no man's land (no playoffs and no opportunity at blue chip prospects).

I agree with you that Larsen isn't playing because they feel like he's not the best Top 6 option on the team. I don't agree with them that he's not better than or equal to Rome though, and if they don't want 4 smaller defenders then why didn't they have a problem with it last year or this summer when it was expected that Larsen would be Top 6 option?

Like I said .. I already acknowledged earlier that it's greedy and a bit silly to expect more, but I do. Logically, at least IMO and several others on this board, this team is a point that they should worry more about maximizing assets, all assets, than how they match up on game day.
Gully stars two rookies on D every night and even more youth up front, and yet it always comes back to Larsen. Gully is playing a lot of youth. I see little meaningful difference between what Gully is doing versus what a coach thinking long term would do.

Besides, no coach except Lindy Ruff can afford to coach for five years down the road. You're expecting an unrealistic approach from a guy trying to keep is job.

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02-06-2013, 08:36 PM
  #45
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i very much disagree that the concept of coaching to win at all costs is something you wouldn't do with a young team. if you don't instill good habits of relentless pursuit of victory in every second of every game, every minute of practice, and every hour of offseason workouts you will wind up with players that can't learn to win.

you can't learn to win. you can only learn to do your all and be your all and prepare your all for every moment, so that when those moments provide you the opportunity to be victorious, you seize them. if the organizational mindset is, well, we'll worry about winning later, they'll never have to worry.

clear out every vet if you want, bring in an ahl squad, it doesn't matter. any coach worth crap will coach his team, and ice the team he feels necessary, to win. every game.

anyone here remember missing the playoffs by one game? ONE FREAKING GAME? how many games do you want to sacrifice in the name of development?

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02-06-2013, 08:39 PM
  #46
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Quote:
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er....hello.....I....uh.... I just wanted to check and see.....you know....if ....uh....I was out of time-out yet?
i'm still laughing at this... will be for a while

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02-06-2013, 08:47 PM
  #47
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also, to the point of the supposed rift between gully and gmjn..

this is all being based on quotes given to the media by the gm, and actions taken by the coach. to me that is a very assuming way of looking at it. what business or sports team EVER is open and honest to the media?

any half way intelligent manager/executive/gm knows that dealing with the media is just an avenue to reach your fans and prospective fans. you say whatever you want to say with those kind of things in mind. not to mention the fact that you avoid anything controversial whenever possible. trying to really know the innerworkings of an organization or the true purpose/objective in a given roster move by looking at quotes in the media is a waste of time.

try going back and reading gmjn's quotes like those you would read on cnn money from ceo's trying to keep their stock's high.

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02-06-2013, 08:51 PM
  #48
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Well if you want to bring up quotes to the media...

How can we take anything Gulutzan says seriously? He says one thing and does the other. You really think he's trying to manipulate the notorious Dallas hockey media?

"No major changes against the Oilers" ---> Major change against the Oilers

So either Gulutzan is playing a game with the media, having wild swings in his decision-making, or something changed.

Joe, on the other hand, generally has his actions match his words.

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02-06-2013, 08:53 PM
  #49
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Still curious as to what these "daily meetings" are like and what they consist of.

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02-06-2013, 09:12 PM
  #50
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Oh please. Neal is a 1st liner, he's not elite by any means outside of maybe his shot.
I don't even know what this means, "outside of his shot." He's a winger who scores goals, fewer goals last season than only three other players. When you're that type of player the only elite thing you need to have is your shot - he has that. I don't care if he was playing with Gretzky, he scored a lot of goals last year and a good deal of them were pretty ****ing nice. He's not a superstar but he is a star player in this league to some degree and he's clearly better than your run of the mill 1st line winger.

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