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Could you, as a Leafs fan, see Nonis doing Kulemin + Holzer for Kennedy + Despres?
As a Pens fan, I could see Shero doing that when Niskanen returns.
Most Pens fans would be steamed, I think, and I'd be far from happy myself, but I really could see Shero making a deal like the one you floated.
Realistically, yes. Certainly not easy to give up a guy who's proven the ability to score 30 goals with size, but if he's not going to do that again for our franchise, his value may be best used elsewhere.
To me, the question isn't so much about value or impact on the team, it's about how Despres fits into the team, it's whether or not he can be molded into a shutdown defenceman that fits into our long term organizational need on the blueline. If Nonis feels that is the case, then yes, it's probably a deal that makes sense. The Leafs would position themselves to have one of the youngest and highest upside bluelines in the league next year with Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Gardiner, Despres, Liles & Rielly, and still have access to Kennedy who's your prototypical versatile checking line forward.
As for Pens fans being 'steamed', that's generally what happens in hockey trades. They're never no-brainers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111
Hate it.
Realistically, Sutter isn't the guy we should be targeting. The guy is not anywhere near ready to be a #1C in this league, and would be no appreciable upgrade over Bozak in the position. Sure, he'd be an upgrade on Kadri in the #3 position, but (at least from my perspective) the idea of having a highly skilled 3rd line playing behind Grabovski seems to be a pretty good idea. You could target him to replace Grabovski, but are the Leafs really in a position to lose experience at centre?? Plus, he hasn't shown anywhere near the offensive output that Grabovski has.... something that is probably pretty important with Bozak/Kadri as the other 2 centres.
Kulemin is SO replaceable and I tend to overrate our players..
What he brings to the game is not replaceable by just anyone. His offense? sure, but the other things he brings to the game. Like Staal for us, Sutters a downgrade from him offensivly, but the defense is pretty similar when Staal cared about playing more in a defensive role.
Oh there's no doubt, his line is playing the shut down role while also adding offense.
I value an upside prospect like Maata over a year and a half of a defensive player with limited offense.
The question is what Nonis values.
That's the trick with trade threads. We overrate our guys and underrate the other team's guys. Sometimes, you'll get people who don't. But, what people rarely do is try to take a step back and, instead of looking at these things as fans, try to look at it from BOTH GM's perspectives.
It's really simple how a deal gets done: Nonis has a minimum he'll take. Shero has a maximum he'll pay. If those two lines cross, then there's potential for a deal. If not, then all of this is academic.
IMO, Shero didn't send his two top scouts to Toronto on Monday for the heck of it. The potential for a deal for someone-- likely Toronto-- is there. Maybe it's MacArthur. Kulemin always is speculated. I wouldn't be stunned if it were Kessel he was thinking about going after.
Or, as happens probably 98% of the time with these things, nothing comes of it.
i say let them keep Kulemin for now and possibly lose him for nothing in July. i don't think he's worth what some Leafs fans think he's worth just based on the fact that he had one 30 goal season.
It's because he's not.
Let them continue to overrate him. He's a good player don't get me wrong, but he's not worth Sutter, let alone Jordan Staal! No idea why some Leafs fans have a hard time understanding that.
Really is no point is discussing this with most of them. Kulemin is valuable to them and the Pens/Shero won't break bank when there will be better options come trade deadline.
Realistically, yes. Certainly not easy to give up a guy who's proven the ability to score 30 goals with size, but if he's not going to do that again for our franchise, his value may be best used elsewhere.
To me, the question isn't so much about value or impact on the team, it's about how Despres fits into the team, it's whether or not he can be molded into a shutdown defenceman that fits into our long term organizational need on the blueline. If Nonis feels that is the case, then yes, it's probably a deal that makes sense. The Leafs would position themselves to have one of the youngest and highest upside bluelines in the league next year with Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Gardiner, Despres, Liles & Rielly, and still have access to Kennedy who's your prototypical versatile checking line forward.
As for Pens fans being 'steamed', that's generally what happens in hockey trades. They're never no-brainers.
Realistically, Sutter isn't the guy we should be targeting. The guy is not anywhere near ready to be a #1C in this league, and would be no appreciable upgrade over Bozak in the position. Sure, he'd be an upgrade on Kadri in the #3 position, but (at least from my perspective) the idea of having a highly skilled 3rd line playing behind Grabovski seems to be a pretty good idea.
Oh, I agree completely about that. 'Steamed' probably doesn't happen all the time, but it's very rare that a deal happens where both fan bases (or even one) are entirely pleased.
LOL at Pens fans who think it would cost anything less then Suter +... And I wouldn't even consider that. When they had J.Staal I wanted Staal for Kulemin + Kadri (which is a better return then they got) now there is literally nothing I would want outside the obvious untouchables. We love Kulemin he's a very important player for us.
Considering Kulemin is only 27, I see no point in helping out an Eastern Conference team and trading him there unless its a hockey trade. Plus I've grown accustomed to watching the Pens get bounced early, so no use in changing things up.
What he brings to the game is not replaceable by just anyone. His offense? sure, but the other things he brings to the game. Like Staal for us, Sutters a downgrade from him offensivly, but the defense is pretty similar when Staal cared about playing more in a defensive role.
I don't think he's good defensively like people are suggesting. I think it's a way to boost his value and pretend that he's a better player than he is. Sorry, but I'm calling a spade a spade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozak
clearly you can't evaluate talent - he's easily our best defensive winger with offensive upside. Why would we throw that away? Kulemin > Suter AINEC
I wouldn't trade Kulemin for Suter. I don't even want Suter. I want Maata.
Let them continue to overrate him. He's a good player don't get me wrong, but he's not worth Sutter, let alone Jordan Staal! No idea why some Leafs fans have a hard time understanding that.
Really is no point is discussing this with most of them. Kulemin is valuable to them and the Pens/Shero won't break bank when there will be better options come trade deadline.
I didn't realized the game was played on the stat sheet. Sutter is an important part of the Penguins the same way Kulie is an important part of the Maple Leafs. Just leave it at that.
Could you, as a Leafs fan, see Nonis doing Kulemin + Holzer for Kennedy + Despres?
As a Pens fan, I could see Shero doing that when Niskanen returns.
Most Pens fans would be steamed, I think, and I'd be far from happy myself, but I really could see Shero making a deal like the one you floated.
Can I just ask you what kind of point you see in Holzer in this deal? Is it just clearing a roster spot/contract for the Leafs or do you think he has any sort of actual worth to the Pens?
Not trying to be negative, honestly asking. I agree with you that it isn`t that out there a proposal, although I wish Shero would not waste the only worthwhile roster player that is tradable (Niskanen OR Despres) on another winger for Malkin, but that is my sense of priorities, which may well be different from the orgs.
Realistically, yes. Certainly not easy to give up a guy who's proven the ability to score 30 goals with size, but if he's not going to do that again for our franchise, his value may be best used elsewhere.
To me, the question isn't so much about value or impact on the team, it's about how Despres fits into the team, it's whether or not he can be molded into a shutdown defenceman that fits into our long term organizational need on the blueline. If Nonis feels that is the case, then yes, it's probably a deal that makes sense. The Leafs would position themselves to have one of the youngest and highest upside bluelines in the league next year with Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Gardiner, Despres, Liles & Rielly, and still have access to Kennedy who's your prototypical versatile checking line forward.
As for Pens fans being 'steamed', that's generally what happens in hockey trades. They're never no-brainers.
Realistically, Sutter isn't the guy we should be targeting. The guy is not anywhere near ready to be a #1C in this league, and would be no appreciable upgrade over Bozak in the position. Sure, he'd be an upgrade on Kadri in the #3 position, but (at least from my perspective) the idea of having a highly skilled 3rd line playing behind Grabovski seems to be a pretty good idea. You could target him to replace Grabovski, but are the Leafs really in a position to lose experience at centre?? Plus, he hasn't shown anywhere near the offensive output that Grabovski has.... something that is probably pretty important with Bozak/Kadri as the other 2 centres.
Until we can get a better centre than Grabovski, we need him. As long as we have Grabovski, we need Bozak. As long as we have Bozak & Grabovski, we have little need for Brandon Sutter.
A lineup has to be built from the top down. You don't make a move on the 2nd/3rd lines assuming some other deal at the top of our lineup is going to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste
Can I just ask you what kind of point you see in Holzer in this deal? Is it just clearing a roster spot/contract for the Leafs or do you think he has any sort of actual worth to the Pens?
Not trying to be negative, honestly asking. I agree with you that it isn`t that out there a proposal, although I wish Shero would not waste the only worthwhile roster player that is tradable (Niskanen OR Despres) on another winger for Malkin, but that is my sense of priorities, which may well be different from the orgs.
Backfill the void that losing Despres would create. He's on a 2-way deal and waiver-exempt.
No Kulemin does not hold more value than SuTTer. Two T's, two!
AINEC? Wow
Yes actually he does. Sutter is a solid #3 C but thats all he is - that's all he ever will be. Kulemin is a solid top 6 winger that can be the defensive/power forward guy on the second line in the mold of a Clowe... This is a guy who already has a 30 goal season to his name and was lighting up the KHL with Malkin. Its early and its not like he's struggling either. We're not overrating Kulemin we expect 20 goals - 45-50 points while playing defensive hockey and opening up space in a top 6 role... these guys are pretty valuable - a lot more then 3rd liners. We're not trading him... we don't want to trade him he's an important player for us. He's not available so cya later... go sign Sykora
Sounds like what we got for Versteeg close to the deadline a couple years ago.
I could live with that, but Im not thrilled by it.
Pitty is going to be in the top ten, which means it will be a 20+ pick in the first round. Who knows what that will be.
Im leaning towards just keeping him, he has more value to us then what we could aquire via trade. Its not like he is a UFA on his last legs like Poni or Antropov were for us.
