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Old
02-06-2013, 08:13 PM
  #51
Frozen Failure
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Sitting Goose, who has been useless, is not a major change.

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02-06-2013, 08:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by eartotheground View Post
i very much disagree that the concept of coaching to win at all costs is something you wouldn't do with a young team. if you don't instill good habits of relentless pursuit of victory in every second of every game, every minute of practice, and every hour of offseason workouts you will wind up with players that can't learn to win.

you can't learn to win. you can only learn to do your all and be your all and prepare your all for every moment, so that when those moments provide you the opportunity to be victorious, you seize them. if the organizational mindset is, well, we'll worry about winning later, they'll never have to worry.

clear out every vet if you want, bring in an ahl squad, it doesn't matter. any coach worth crap will coach his team, and ice the team he feels necessary, to win. every game.

anyone here remember missing the playoffs by one game? ONE FREAKING GAME? how many games do you want to sacrifice in the name of development?
I feel like you're missing the entire point of the "winning at all costs" discussion. Nobody is saying winning isn't an important mindset for the young players to get into. The win at all costs now mindset becomes a problem when you have young players who make mistakes that hurt your chances of winning on a given night; they have to be given the chance to make mistakes at the NHL level, soak in what they did wrong, and monitor how often they keep making them.

I'd rather miss the playoffs for another three straight years if it meant 4-7 years from now we have a solid squad ready to compete for a Cup, not an 8th seed playoff spot. I'm in this for the long haul; if they are playing deep into the playoffs in a handful of years and are a legitimate powerhouse team, I'll sacrifice bandaid success now.

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02-06-2013, 08:37 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I don't even know what this means, "outside of his shot." He's a winger who scores goals, fewer goals last season than only three other players. When you're that type of player the only elite thing you need to have is your shot - he has that. I don't care if he was playing with Gretzky, he scored a lot of goals last year and a good deal of them were pretty ****ing nice. He's not a superstar but he is a star player in this league to some degree and he's clearly better than your run of the mill 1st line winger.
He's not one of the best young wingers in the game though. That's what I'm pointing out.

He's not even really that young anymore, either.

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02-06-2013, 08:42 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
Sitting Goose, who has been useless, is not a major change.
Haha, what? Yes it is. They're sitting their TOI leader who had been identified by the GM as part of the team's core. I don't know how you get much more major than that.

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02-06-2013, 08:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
He's not one of the best young wingers in the game though. That's what I'm pointing out.

He's not even really that young anymore, either.
He's 25 and a 40 goal scorer, as well as he plays hard and is physical.

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02-06-2013, 08:51 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
He's not one of the best young wingers in the game though. That's what I'm pointing out.

He's not even really that young anymore, either.
Whatever man. He's 25 and scored 40 goals last year. Technically, he doesn't need the "young" prefix because as far as I'm concerned he's one of the better wingers in the game, period. He's a scorer. How many wingers would you choose over him if you're down late in a game and need a goal? If you list more than 10-15 you're either a liar or a poor judge of talent.

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02-06-2013, 08:52 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I feel like you're missing the entire point of the "winning at all costs" discussion. Nobody is saying winning isn't an important mindset for the young players to get into. The win at all costs now mindset becomes a problem when you have young players who make mistakes that hurt your chances of winning on a given night; they have to be given the chance to make mistakes at the NHL level, soak in what they did wrong, and monitor how often they keep making them.

I'd rather miss the playoffs for another three straight years if it meant 4-7 years from now we have a solid squad ready to compete for a Cup, not an 8th seed playoff spot. I'm in this for the long haul; if they are playing deep into the playoffs in a handful of years and are a legitimate powerhouse team, I'll sacrifice bandaid success now.
maybe, but what i'm saying that if you want the youth to play though the mistakes, then you have to get rid of the vets, and that's on the GM. as it is, i don't think you have to let every young player continue to play through every mistake. gully HAS been playing the youth. a lot.

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02-06-2013, 08:57 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by eartotheground View Post
maybe, but what i'm saying that if you want the youth to play though the mistakes, then you have to get rid of the vets, and that's on the GM. as it is, i don't think you have to let every young player continue to play through every mistake. gully HAS been playing the youth. a lot.
You may have said that in another post but it wasn't in the post I quoted. I also disagree that you don't have to let every young player play through their mistakes (I refuse to use the phrase "every" in this context...it's exaggeration).

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02-06-2013, 09:32 PM
  #59
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This isn't close to what I was saying. A Top 5 pick without significant injuries to this team is a fantasy.
I was agreeing with your post and adding my own commentary.

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02-06-2013, 09:37 PM
  #60
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As a Pens fan, I'm shocked to see this. Gogo is awesome. I'd certainly take him back on the Pens - but not for Neal

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02-07-2013, 09:43 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I don't even know what this means, "outside of his shot." He's a winger who scores goals, fewer goals last season than only three other players. When you're that type of player the only elite thing you need to have is your shot - he has that. I don't care if he was playing with Gretzky, he scored a lot of goals last year and a good deal of them were pretty ****ing nice. He's not a superstar but he is a star player in this league to some degree and he's clearly better than your run of the mill 1st line winger.
Exactly, Neal is aptly living up to his nickname "The real deal." He's become an all-star and "elite" or not, a bonafide first-line winger in the league on a pretty decent hockey club. He had one slump as a young player on a mediocre hockey club and the Stars gave up on him without even seeing what the market could garner for him. The whole rest of the league knew that wasn't a third pairing defenceman who was already on the north side of age 25.

I don't buy the rookie general manager thing. There's 30 men fortunate enough to have those positions in the NHL and hundreds elsewhere in hockey vying for that chance. If you get one of those 30 jobs, you should be qualified going into it to face the big boys.

As for the Lehtonen deal, yeah, it was a good one. I daresay, however, with how specialized goaltending has become right through the ranks of hockey, it's harder to find a natural scorer now than it is to find a goaltender capable of starting games at that level.

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02-07-2013, 09:48 AM
  #62
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GM Joe took two big risks to remake this club. One was on an extremely talented goalie who he thought would thrive under proper direction, nutrition, and a change of scenery. The other was for an extremely skilled puck-moving D-man who seemed buried in an organization's depth, who he thought would thrive with more minutes and evolve into a legit #1.

One worked, one didn't. That's the nature of taking risks. Though I do agree there's something fundamentally wrong with how this organization develops it's Defensemen at this point.

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02-07-2013, 09:59 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
GM Joe took two big risks to remake this club. One was on an extremely talented goalie who he thought would thrive under proper direction, nutrition, and a change of scenery. The other was for an extremely skilled puck-moving D-man who seemed buried in an organization's depth, who he thought would thrive with more minutes and evolve into a legit #1.

One worked, one didn't. That's the nature of taking risks. Though I do agree there's something fundamentally wrong with how this organization develops it's Defensemen at this point.
That's perfect because there's something fundamentally wrong with how the Pens develop their wingers (well that and we don't have many). Let's keep trading

That said, I am sad to see Gogo struggling. I really hope he picks it up for you guys. My Dad lives in Dallas so you are my Western Conference team. Go Stars.

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02-07-2013, 10:10 AM
  #64
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Trading for Kari wasn't a risk. It was like being given a free lottery ticket. Kari wasn't under a long term or expensive contract, and Nieuwy gave up next to nothing to get him. If Kari was unable to stay healthy, it wouldn't have mattered at all.

The Neal trade was a big risk. Nieuwy had a few good young forwards and no good young d-men, so he tried to turn a forward into a d-man, and he missed big time. Damn shame.

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02-07-2013, 02:02 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Trading for Kari wasn't a risk. It was like being given a free lottery ticket. Kari wasn't under a long term or expensive contract, and Nieuwy gave up next to nothing to get him. If Kari was unable to stay healthy, it wouldn't have mattered at all.

The Neal trade was a big risk. Nieuwy had a few good young forwards and no good young d-men, so he tried to turn a forward into a d-man, and he missed big time. Damn shame.
What? The top defenseman prospect in the organization traded for a goalie who struggled with motivation, being injury prone, and living up to his potential. Furthermore, he was not good enough for the Atlanta freaking Thrashers and was going to be the replacement for Marty Turco? It was a big risk that has paid off handsomely, but there is so much revisionism in that statement that my head is spinning.

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02-07-2013, 02:29 PM
  #66
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Look Vishnevskiy was hardly some fantastic d-man prospect. He was the best of our very bad bunch but due to his play and his russian status he was not a sure fire prospect that Dallas gave up. The package of Vish and a 4th for Lehtonen was a steal and an easy deal for JN to agree to because the risk of it blowing up in Niewendyk's face was very minimal. At worst it's a wash where both players failed.

Neal on the other hand was a bonafide stud. Yes he had issues in Dallas but just like Boston and Thornton, Dallas didn't shop him and settled for a guy they thought could grow. Instead of getting the best return, even if it wasn't a d-man they needed they took a huge risk on a guy who's only regressed. If Golgoski were putting p 40+ points in an 82 game season it wouldn't seem so bad but Dallas gave up a guy who is a legit 40 goal scorer and to date has been bent over by the return.

I hope the lesson Joe has learned is that you get the best return possible for your asset and then perhaps take some of those pieces to fill your hole. Targeting one player to the exclusion of the rest of the league is a recipe for disaster and a mistake that should not be repeated.


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02-07-2013, 02:32 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
What? The top defenseman prospect in the organization traded for a goalie who struggled with motivation, being injury prone, and living up to his potential. Furthermore, he was not good enough for the Atlanta freaking Thrashers and was going to be the replacement for Marty Turco? It was a big risk that has paid off handsomely, but there is so much revisionism in that statement that my head is spinning.
Vishnevskiy was the top defensive prospect in the organization by default. He was top because he was the only one for a while.

The revisionism is you overrating what Vishnevskiy was. I was really high on the guy at one point because his skating and his shot was so fun to watch, but even the few times I saw him play in the AHL, it was clear he didn't care. He was waiting for his contract to expire so he could head back to Russia. North America wasn't for him. Too bad for the Stars because he had the talent to be a real player.

It comes down to the Stars trading a guy who wasn't part of their long term plans. That's not a big gamble.

I give Nieuwy a lot of credit for making the deal. Why not? There was zero harm in doing so. If Kari couldn't play, nothing was given up. If Kari could play, he got a good goalie for nothing.

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02-07-2013, 02:49 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
Sitting Goose, who has been useless, is not a major change.
I can see why you would say this, but sitting a defenseman who is among your leaders in ice time IS a major change.

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02-07-2013, 02:59 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Vishnevskiy was the top defensive prospect in the organization by default. He was top because he was the only one for a while.

The revisionism is you overrating what Vishnevskiy was. I was really high on the guy at one point because his skating and his shot was so fun to watch, but even the few times I saw him play in the AHL, it was clear he didn't care. He was waiting for his contract to expire so he could head back to Russia. North America wasn't for him. Too bad for the Stars because he had the talent to be a real player.

It comes down to the Stars trading a guy who wasn't part of their long term plans. That's not a big gamble.

I give Nieuwy a lot of credit for making the deal. Why not? There was zero harm in doing so. If Kari couldn't play, nothing was given up. If Kari could play, he got a good goalie for nothing.
I freely admit to being more of a casual fan back in those days, so I didn't have the feeling that Visnovsky was headed back to Russia or that he wasn't going to put it together and be a good player, just that he was about the only prospect the Stars had as the team continued to decay.

I think it was a gamble, but some people around here treat it like Phoenix getting Bryzgalov off of waivers.

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02-07-2013, 03:09 PM
  #70
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Regarding the currrent James Neal discussion:

I think the thing missing from this discussion is that James Neal was NOT elite when he was here. He showed some flashes, but mostly looked like a streaky, physical 2nd line winger.

55 pt is not elite.

So regardless of what we thought his value and ceiling with the team was, noone had SEEN it yet. So it's not like Joe could have garnered Shea Webber or even Kris Letang. We were DESPERATE for defense and Joe took a risk.

This is made worse by the fact that Neal ended up having great chemistry with Sydney Crosby. But honestly, does anyone think Michael Ryder wouldn't have 40-45 goals playing with Crosby? Doesn't make Ryder worth a #1 defenseman.

So Joe found what he thought was a diamond in the rough that could blossom and used a 2nd line power play guy (with terrible defense, even still) to get him. A risk and he whiffed (we think).

TL;DR - We DID NOT trade a 40 goal scoring maniac to the penguins. We traded a 25 goal streak scorer to the penguins. We missed. No doubt. But if the trade would have been to Columbus, and he was playing with Umberger, and still scoring between 20 -30 goals, would we think of this trade the same way?

Does he score 40 without Crosby? maybe, but I doubt it.

Goligoski put up 40 pts from the 3rd pairing. Looked good. Sometimes, you miss.

let it go.

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02-07-2013, 03:30 PM
  #71
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^ I think you mean Malkin

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02-07-2013, 03:41 PM
  #72
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The Kari trade only seems risky because of his injury history and work ethic. The organization knew Vish was going to bolt to Russia far before it hit HF.

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02-07-2013, 03:42 PM
  #73
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@Haf

Before they were even traded there were many proposals centered around getting Goligoski to Dallas. Even though Neal had not yet broken out alongside Malkin, many reasonable posters agreed he held more value than Goligoski.

It was a bad trade that got worse, not an okay trade that got bad.

The threads in question for your consideration:
Speculation: Neal for Goligoski
Proposal: Pens/Stars
Value of: James Neal for a D-Man

There were others. It was pretty annoying.

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02-07-2013, 04:45 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haf View Post
Regarding the currrent James Neal discussion:

I think the thing missing from this discussion is that James Neal was NOT elite when he was here. He showed some flashes, but mostly looked like a streaky, physical 2nd line winger.

55 pt is not elite.

So regardless of what we thought his value and ceiling with the team was, noone had SEEN it yet. So it's not like Joe could have garnered Shea Webber or even Kris Letang. We were DESPERATE for defense and Joe took a risk.

This is made worse by the fact that Neal ended up having great chemistry with Sydney Crosby. But honestly, does anyone think Michael Ryder wouldn't have 40-45 goals playing with Crosby? Doesn't make Ryder worth a #1 defenseman.

So Joe found what he thought was a diamond in the rough that could blossom and used a 2nd line power play guy (with terrible defense, even still) to get him. A risk and he whiffed (we think).

TL;DR - We DID NOT trade a 40 goal scoring maniac to the penguins. We traded a 25 goal streak scorer to the penguins. We missed. No doubt. But if the trade would have been to Columbus, and he was playing with Umberger, and still scoring between 20 -30 goals, would we think of this trade the same way?

Does he score 40 without Crosby? maybe, but I doubt it.

Goligoski put up 40 pts from the 3rd pairing. Looked good. Sometimes, you miss.

let it go.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say.


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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
@Haf

Before they were even traded there were many proposals centered around getting Goligoski to Dallas. Even though Neal had not yet broken out alongside Malkin, many reasonable posters agreed he held more value than Goligoski.

It was a bad trade that got worse, not an okay trade that got bad.

The threads in question for your consideration:
Speculation: Neal for Goligoski
Proposal: Pens/Stars
Value of: James Neal for a D-Man

There were others. It was pretty annoying.
We also agreed we'd get more for Ribeiro than we did. Most were expecting Eakin + one of their firsts. HF's value is rarely spot on with NHL value.

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02-07-2013, 05:42 PM
  #75
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I think most of us didn't realize how good Eakin is.

I know HF valuation isn't very accurate, but the point I was trying to make is that we thought it was a bad trade even before Neal scored 40.

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