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Views on the Toronto Maple Leafs (Mod: the hockey team)

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Old
02-05-2013, 04:29 PM
  #226
Spazmatic Dan
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Originally Posted by gormo View Post
I never understood why some Leaf fans showered Burke with so much praise. Ive heard him being described as one of the finest hockey minds in the business, (among other things) even after he was replaced by Nonis.

Im not sure why some Leaf fans are seemingly compelled to overlook the obvious.

He never made the team "truculent" as he claimed he would, in fact he delivered the opposite.

He never built from the net out as he claimed he would, and in 4 years never aquired a center that could compliment Kessel.

Your prospects are better, but overall they are still in the bottom half of the league from what Ive heard. They are minus 2 first round and 1 second round picks after all.
Leafs fan agreeing with you for the most part.

I'm not Burke's biggest fan but I did like that we were getting a GM who wouldn't take crap and would build the team his way. Finally, some direction from a flip floppity franchise trying desperately to make the playoffs with no hope for the future.

Boy was I wrong.

Burke came in and did nothing like he said he was going to do. He didn't make the team tough. He didn't build from the net out. He said he could turn it around without bottoming out. He did NONE of that (except bottom out I guess - without picks of course) and again the team has zero direction.

Yes he did some good but he didn't do what he said he would. He didn't follow his own blueprint. To me it seems like we're back where we started....not sure where we're going.

Now I was against his firing because I was still hoping he could go the direction he wanted to go (but mostly because the timing was asinine IMO) but to say Burke's tenure in Toronto was anything but a failure is wrong by his own standards.




My opinion on the Leafs? They've got some building blocks in place, but they've got a long ways to go yet. The defense needs revamping. Phaneuf is a solid player but the defense around him needs to improve and drastically. The forward core has good young pieces and Phil Kessel at the center but it desperately needs a #1 star center who doesn't necessarily need to be as offensively gifted as Kessel but needs to be able to adequately keep up with him and play solid defensively. The need a #1 goalie..Reimer could be that but the jury's out.

In essence they have made significant progress but the pieces they need yet are the hardest to acquire. They could come internally but it won't be easy. Nonis has his work cut out for him. Leafs need shrewd management (even when the entire fanbase is screaming at you for a decade of pain) and no small amount of luck.

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02-05-2013, 04:29 PM
  #227
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the maple leaves have been pretty good imo. id say im a fan

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Old
02-05-2013, 04:45 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
As an Ottawa fan living in Toronto for the past 6 years, I blame everything on the media. The Toronto Hockey Media (THM) overreacts worse than any other sportsteam's media in the world. Literally five games into the season, every newspaper and the big 2 websites (TSN/RSN) ran articles on 1) trading Kessel and 2) blowing up the Leafs. At this point, the Leafs were 2-3 IIRC.

Think about this for a second. The Leafs were 1 game below .500, 1 point out of a playoff spot and every media outlet wanted to trade its best player and blow the team up. After 5 games.

No other sports media in the world overreacts to that extent. It took the Lakers 15 games before articles about trading Howard popped up. And even then, it's the Lakers. Being mediocre is foreign to them. I don't understand how, given that the Leafs haven't made the playoffs since the last lockout, the THM is shocked and appalled at a 2-3 start.

The media trickles down onto the fans. FOX news rants, and crazy republicans repeat their propoganda. Same thing for the THM. We're now 9 games in, the Leafs are 1 point out. And we're still seeing "trade Kessel", "blow them up", "the ship's going down" articles. Do you see anything on how well Kadri's playing? Anything on Reilly's progress in the WHL? Anything on Frattin? Nope. Because the fans respond to fear mongering articles and that's what the THM continues to give. I honestly think that if the Leafs were the best team in the league right now, you'd see THM articles on other teams...Ovie's struggles, Spezza going down, the Raptors.

TL;DR: The Toronto Hockey Media is to blame. Calm the f down. It's 9 games in. You are literally 1 goalie and 1 defensive d-man away from being a playoff team. Focus on how your younger players are developing. Try waiting until Reilly and co. are ready to play. And in 3 years, if you want to blow up your team, go ahead.
I agree with this. The Toronto media is the worst. I laugh when people say the media are Leaf homers. All they do is crap on everything.

And even, as you pointed, a positive happens like Kadri and Frattin, they don't bother talking about it much.

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Old
02-05-2013, 05:59 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
As an Ottawa fan living in Toronto for the past 6 years, I blame everything on the media. The Toronto Hockey Media (THM) overreacts worse than any other sportsteam's media in the world. Literally five games into the season, every newspaper and the big 2 websites (TSN/RSN) ran articles on 1) trading Kessel and 2) blowing up the Leafs. At this point, the Leafs were 2-3 IIRC.

Think about this for a second. The Leafs were 1 game below .500, 1 point out of a playoff spot and every media outlet wanted to trade its best player and blow the team up. After 5 games.

No other sports media in the world overreacts to that extent. It took the Lakers 15 games before articles about trading Howard popped up. And even then, it's the Lakers. Being mediocre is foreign to them. I don't understand how, given that the Leafs haven't made the playoffs since the last lockout, the THM is shocked and appalled at a 2-3 start.

The media trickles down onto the fans. FOX news rants, and crazy republicans repeat their propoganda. Same thing for the THM. We're now 9 games in, the Leafs are 1 point out. And we're still seeing "trade Kessel", "blow them up", "the ship's going down" articles. Do you see anything on how well Kadri's playing? Anything on Reilly's progress in the WHL? Anything on Frattin? Nope. Because the fans respond to fear mongering articles and that's what the THM continues to give. I honestly think that if the Leafs were the best team in the league right now, you'd see THM articles on other teams...Ovie's struggles, Spezza going down, the Raptors.

TL;DR: The Toronto Hockey Media is to blame. Calm the f down. It's 9 games in. You are literally 1 goalie and 1 defensive d-man away from being a playoff team. Focus on how your younger players are developing. Try waiting until Reilly and co. are ready to play. And in 3 years, if you want to blow up your team, go ahead.
Sure the media is terrible. It's terrible in Montreal and it's terrible in New York etc... And it's always been terrible.

That's not the problem though. The problem is that the Leafs haven't had good teams for a long time now. If they solve that, there won't be a problem.
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Leafs fan agreeing with you for the most part.

I'm not Burke's biggest fan but I did like that we were getting a GM who wouldn't take crap and would build the team his way. Finally, some direction from a flip floppity franchise trying desperately to make the playoffs with no hope for the future.

Boy was I wrong.

Burke came in and did nothing like he said he was going to do. He didn't make the team tough. He didn't build from the net out. He said he could turn it around without bottoming out. He did NONE of that (except bottom out I guess - without picks of course) and again the team has zero direction.

Yes he did some good but he didn't do what he said he would. He didn't follow his own blueprint. To me it seems like we're back where we started....not sure where we're going.

Now I was against his firing because I was still hoping he could go the direction he wanted to go (but mostly because the timing was asinine IMO) but to say Burke's tenure in Toronto was anything but a failure is wrong by his own standards.
To be fair to Burke though he really did give it a shot. Komisarek was a beast for a long time with Montreal. When he came back from injury he wasn't the same. But with the summer off I figured he'd be an awesome signing for TO and unfortunately he wasn't any different than the guy who had just come back from injury. Beauchemain should've also been better. Then he went and made that trade...

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02-05-2013, 07:17 PM
  #230
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I am curious as to what the league thinks off TML. I have noticed that as of late, I have been having a ionsanely biased opion (who doesn't for there team). What is the impressions you guys get when the leafs play your team, who do you think is our best player, worst, or overrated? Do you guys think that Leafs Nation will make the playoffs this year or not? Feel free to add anything else you think about the Leafs.
My view on the Leafs is that it is great that Burke is gone. He did make more good trades than bad ones but he will always be haunted by the Kessel deal. I know there is no way he could know exactly where those picks would be, but he really misjudged how good that team was, he said he believed it was a playoff team. Boston also got Rask before Burke was the GM. It is somewhat possible than the Bruins end up with a #1 center, a #1 D and a #1 goaltender in their dealing with Toronto. What does TO need? Exactly what Boston got from them. That is some bad management there.

Everything is not all bad, I love the JVR deal, that deal is pretty great for the Leafs and really bad for Philly in my opinion. I think the management is now on the right path and will turn the Leafs into a playoff team in short order. They made a couple of smart moves in regards to personnel who were not living up to what they were supposed to bring to the team and now it seems like they are probably two players away from being a playoff team.

Things will be better for the Leafs very soon even if I will think of how bad the former management of this team screwed up every time I look at the Boston Bruins roster.

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02-05-2013, 07:17 PM
  #231
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Leafs won't make the playoffs and the way they're playing .500 hockey they won't get a prospect worth a **** either.

Typical Leaf season IMO.

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02-05-2013, 11:43 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
My view on the Leafs is that it is great that Burke is gone. He did make more good trades than bad ones but he will always be haunted by the Kessel deal. I know there is no way he could know exactly where those picks would be, but he really misjudged how good that team was, he said he believed it was a playoff team. Boston also got Rask before Burke was the GM. It is somewhat possible than the Bruins end up with a #1 center, a #1 D and a #1 goaltender in their dealing with Toronto.
His problem was that he wasn't willing to rebuild and he tried the shortcut route. Too bad too because the timing for a rebuild was perfect.
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What does TO need? Exactly what Boston got from them. That is some bad management there.
You know, I never thought of it that way but you're absolutely right.
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Everything is not all bad, I love the JVR deal, that deal is pretty great for the Leafs and really bad for Philly in my opinion. I think the management is now on the right path and will turn the Leafs into a playoff team in short order. They made a couple of smart moves in regards to personnel who were not living up to what they were supposed to bring to the team and now it seems like they are probably two players away from being a playoff team.

Things will be better for the Leafs very soon even if I will think of how bad the former management of this team screwed up every time I look at the Boston Bruins roster.
Burke made some great moves. JVR was great so was Lupul/Gardiner. Like I said earlier, I see him as a good GM who just started from the wrong premise. All the guy had to do was be patient, build through the draft and make rebuild trades. He got some of the second part right but massively ****ed up the first.

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Old
02-06-2013, 06:40 AM
  #233
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Sure the media is terrible. It's terrible in Montreal and it's terrible in New York etc... And it's always been terrible.

That's not the problem though. The problem is that the Leafs haven't had good teams for a long time now. If they solve that, there won't be a problem.
Not true. You don't see articles down in NYR about trading Lundquist because the Rags have had a mediocre start. You didn't see articles in Montreal about trading Price last year. You see plenty on the good starts by Yuk and Gallagher. The THM gets intense pleasure from writing/blasting the bad Maple Leafs. They are impatient, overly critical and seem to think the Leafs are entitled to a 10-0 start to the year, and when they go 5-5, they are incredulous and write a bunch of articles about blowing the team up.

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02-06-2013, 07:59 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
Not true. You don't see articles down in NYR about trading Lundquist because the Rags have had a mediocre start. You didn't see articles in Montreal about trading Price last year. You see plenty on the good starts by Yuk and Gallagher. The THM gets intense pleasure from writing/blasting the bad Maple Leafs. They are impatient, overly critical and seem to think the Leafs are entitled to a 10-0 start to the year, and when they go 5-5, they are incredulous and write a bunch of articles about blowing the team up.
I think you are making a huge mistake putting Kessel on the same level as Lundqvist or Price.

The thing with Kessel is that he is a great peripheral piece to a great team while Lundqvist and Price would be key pieces to a great team in my opinion. Some feel that trading Kessel now is a good idea for the future of the Leafs because he has good value and they might actually be able to get a key piece for their future for him.

I can't say I disagree with that.

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02-06-2013, 08:10 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
I think you are making a huge mistake putting Kessel on the same level as Lundqvist or Price.

The thing with Kessel is that he is a great peripheral piece to a great team while Lundqvist and Price would be key pieces to a great team in my opinion. Some feel that trading Kessel now is a good idea for the future of the Leafs because he has good value and they might actually be able to get a key piece for their future for him.

I can't say I disagree with that.
I'm not saying they are equal players. I'm saying they are the stars of their respective teams. If the Leafs were 7-3, you wouldn't see any "trade Kessel" articles. Every year, it's the same thing. "Kessel's gone X games without a goal." And every year he ends up with 30 goals. He's streaky but he's fairly consistent overall. He's also 25 yrs old. The THM has a short attention span and no patience. If you had Taylor Hall, the articles would be "Hall isn't a PPG player yet and this guy's always injured, lets trade him and tank for MacKinnon". It happened with Kadri. It's starting to happen with Gardiner. It'll happen with Reilly.

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02-06-2013, 08:12 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
I think you are making a huge mistake putting Kessel on the same level as Lundqvist or Price.

The thing with Kessel is that he is a great peripheral piece to a great team while Lundqvist and Price would be key pieces to a great team in my opinion. Some feel that trading Kessel now is a good idea for the future of the Leafs because he has good value and they might actually be able to get a key piece for their future for him.

I can't say I disagree with that.
Agreed. If Kessel was a centre than these conversations wouldn't be happening. The fact is that you don't build teams around a winger, they can be important pieces but they shouldn't be the best player on your team.

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02-06-2013, 08:19 AM
  #237
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What does TO need? Exactly what Boston got from them. That is some bad management there.
To be fair, if the Leafs had Seguin instead of Kessel, they'd still be looking for another top-line threat to play with Lupul/Seguin. But you have a point.

Unless the Leafs would've never gotten Lupul/Gardiner if not for the Kessel trade. But that's approaching a level of abstraction that I don't think any board outside of the Lounge can handle.


Last edited by Marco Esquandolas: 02-06-2013 at 08:27 AM.
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02-06-2013, 08:23 AM
  #238
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The Leafs are my hometown team. I'd put the Jets and Oilers ahead of them, but I'll always have a soft spot for the Leafs.

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02-06-2013, 11:59 AM
  #239
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The Leafs don't have much of a nucleus, that is their problem. Burke kept trading draft picks to get ONE guy or he gave in to the owners/MLSE and tried to make the playoffs instead of tanking. The result is, they don't have much of a core at all.

The problem is the fans don't realize it either. Talk with them for a while and they eventually try to conclude it's all because they don't have a #1 goalie. It's always 'goalies' with them. The media and ownership know this so it's easy to sugarcoat the Leafs' problems.

The Toronto media is not as tough anymore. All the sports stations aside from CBC are operated by either Bell or Rogers so now the announcers and media are very soft with criticism. Cox and others used to slam the Leafs but now they sugarcoat every problem and just glaze over serious stuff.

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02-06-2013, 07:12 PM
  #240
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Not true. You don't see articles down in NYR about trading Lundquist because the Rags have had a mediocre start. You didn't see articles in Montreal about trading Price last year.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The papers in Montreal are the absolute worst. As for Price... go look at the crap he's had to go through for years. Personal attacks about his character, silver spoon etc... Hell, they took photos of Koivu in his hospital room.. and put it on the front page. You haven't got a clue man.

The Montreal media is far more personal and far worse. Jack Todd alone is worse than all the TO writers put together.
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Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
You see plenty on the good starts by Yuk and Gallagher. The THM gets intense pleasure from writing/blasting the bad Maple Leafs. They are impatient, overly critical and seem to think the Leafs are entitled to a 10-0 start to the year, and when they go 5-5, they are incredulous and write a bunch of articles about blowing the team up.
The Leafs have sucked for years. Their writers have written about how they've sucked (wtf else are they going to write about?) When the Leafs start icing good teams you'll see some positive articles but right now they suck.
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I'm not saying they are equal players. I'm saying they are the stars of their respective teams. If the Leafs were 7-3, you wouldn't see any "trade Kessel" articles. Every year, it's the same thing. "Kessel's gone X games without a goal." And every year he ends up with 30 goals. He's streaky but he's fairly consistent overall. He's also 25 yrs old. The THM has a short attention span and no patience. If you had Taylor Hall, the articles would be "Hall isn't a PPG player yet and this guy's always injured, lets trade him and tank for MacKinnon". It happened with Kadri. It's starting to happen with Gardiner. It'll happen with Reilly.
The reason why folks are suggesting that maybe Kessel should be moved has little to do with his playing. I think everyone knows that he's playing great hockey despite not finding the net and he hasn't taken too much heat for it.

The reason people have suggested it might make sense is because of the circumstances under which he came to the team. It's not his fault but he will always be associated with that trade. Nobody is saying he sucks.
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Agreed. If Kessel was a centre than these conversations wouldn't be happening. The fact is that you don't build teams around a winger, they can be important pieces but they shouldn't be the best player on your team.
Yeah, they'd still be happening. And no there's nothing wrong with building around a winger. Richard, Hull, Howe, Lafleur, Bossy, Hull, Ovechkin...

Just because there are fewer great wingers than there are centers doesn't mean you can't build around them. Just hard to find wingers that are as good as the centers anymore.

And btw, for the sake of my point, let's just forget about how badly OV has been lately.
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The Leafs don't have much of a nucleus, that is their problem. Burke kept trading draft picks to get ONE guy or he gave in to the owners/MLSE and tried to make the playoffs instead of tanking. The result is, they don't have much of a core at all.

The problem is the fans don't realize it either. Talk with them for a while and they eventually try to conclude it's all because they don't have a #1 goalie. It's always 'goalies' with them. The media and ownership know this so it's easy to sugarcoat the Leafs' problems.
Yup. And you see it in this very thread. Folks believe they're only a goalie away... they aren't.

To be fair though, EVERY fan base has this problem. The Leafs just have more fans than most so it sticks out more.
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The Toronto media is not as tough anymore. All the sports stations aside from CBC are operated by either Bell or Rogers so now the announcers and media are very soft with criticism. Cox and others used to slam the Leafs but now they sugarcoat every problem and just glaze over serious stuff.
I don't have a problem with anything Cox says. The guy has slammed the Leafs often but they've deserved it. It wouldn't have happened if the organization wasn't so disfunctional. Don't shoot the messenger.

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02-06-2013, 07:20 PM
  #241
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The Leafs problem is cultural and goes back to their earliest days - they have ALWAYS put arrogant blowhards in management positions who put themselves above the team.

This is perfectly symbolized by the repellent Punch Imlach, who (besides everything else he did) ignored trying to scout a young Bobby Orr even though his father approached the Leafs directly.

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02-06-2013, 07:21 PM
  #242
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Talking about the current Maple Leafs, I think the word to describe them is: Inconsistent. Some games they look great and others, they play with no heart, no drive, no will to win.

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02-06-2013, 07:43 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Hot Water Bottle View Post
The Leafs problem is cultural and goes back to their earliest days - they have ALWAYS put arrogant blowhards in management positions who put themselves above the team.

This is perfectly symbolized by the repellent Punch Imlach, who (besides everything else he did) ignored trying to scout a young Bobby Orr even though his father approached the Leafs directly.
How many rings did he win?

I'll take that problematic culture any day.

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02-06-2013, 07:44 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Hot Water Bottle View Post
The Leafs problem is cultural and goes back to their earliest days - they have ALWAYS put arrogant blowhards in management positions who put themselves above the team.

This is perfectly symbolized by the repellent Punch Imlach, who (besides everything else he did) ignored trying to scout a young Bobby Orr even though his father approached the Leafs directly.
Well to be fair to Punch, I'm sure he had parents coming up to him all the time... I don't know the details of this story but maybe he deserves some slack on that one.

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02-06-2013, 07:47 PM
  #245
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I agree with this. The Toronto media is the worst. I laugh when people say the media are Leaf homers. All they do is crap on everything.
I don't know why the media have been crapping on a team that last made the playoffs TWO lockouts ago in a league in which more than half the teams make the playoffs each year. It will remain a mystery.

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02-06-2013, 07:56 PM
  #246
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Well to be fair to Punch, I'm sure he had parents coming up to him all the time... I don't know the details of this story but maybe he deserves some slack on that one.
I remembered that story from a book in my school library... and it happens to be viewable on Google Books as a preview online! It's called Legendary NHL Coaches: Stars of Hockey's Golden Age, By Glenn Wilkins. There is a whole chapter on Punch Imlach and the Bobby Orr story is on page 109.

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02-06-2013, 08:03 PM
  #247
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I remembered that story from a book in my school library... and it happens to be viewable on Google Books as a preview online! It's called Legendary NHL Coaches: Stars of Hockey's Golden Age, By Glenn Wilkins. There is a whole chapter on Punch Imlach and the Bobby Orr story is on page 109.
Can you provide the link?

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02-06-2013, 08:09 PM
  #248
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Can you provide the link?
OK, click here - scroll down to page 109

Just realized this couldn't be the same book I remember, but it does recount the story in a similar way.

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02-06-2013, 08:40 PM
  #249
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OK, click here - scroll down to page 109

Just realized this couldn't be the same book I remember, but it does recount the story in a similar way.
Sadly it is not captured here.

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02-06-2013, 09:26 PM
  #250
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I don't think that one move defines him.

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