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Pens eyeing Kulemin

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Old
02-06-2013, 08:41 PM
  #426
HappyGilmourr
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
Can you please get his name correct? It's been brought up multiple times and it's not that hard.

If you want to keep Kulemin and overvalue him then fine. I won't lose sleep knowing the Pens are 4th in GPG, have a strong 3C model while the Leafs struggle to find quality center depth and knowing Shero won't overpay when there will possibly be better options available later.
I'm not over valuing Kulemin it's what he's worth to us... The leafs have good centre depth. Are you even aware of our teams strengths and weaknesses? If not thats fine but don't make such claims. This team just put Connolly in the minors and traded away Lombardi we're fine other then the number 1 hole.


Grabovski is as good as a number 2 as you can get and Mclement is a very good checking number 3... Right now he's on the wing though because we have Kadri as our 3rd line C. Our depth at C is fine we just lack a true number 1 guy.


Grabovski
Kadri
Bozak
Mcclement
Steckel
Connolly

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02-06-2013, 08:42 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Well Maatta might not exactly be the prospect wanted, but one of comparative value.

A Pitt 2nd could very well be 60th.

A Pitt 1rst could very well be 30th or in other words not a hella more valuable then our 2nd.

That's why i feel DN would push for the high prospect and a 1rst.

The way i see it, the prospect could turn into something as good as Kuli , maybe better or maybe a bust. For that risk a 25---30 pick is in the mix.
I don't disagree. That's why I said maybe he 'settles' for the Maatta caliber guy PLUS a 2nd and a guy like Teddy Blueger (check him out before thinking he's a Tangradi caliber throw in; he was the Pens second round pick last year and looked sweet for an otherwise **** Latvian WJC team).

Anyway, point is, IF Nonis likes a Maatta caliber prospect as the centerpiece, then it seems that you and I are agreeing that a deal is far from impossible.

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02-06-2013, 08:42 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
i'd be careful getting players off pittsburgh
remember colby armstrong ?
We remember Poni. You signed Colby as a FA. That was your own dumb fault.

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02-06-2013, 08:43 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
i'd be careful getting players off pittsburgh
remember colby armstrong ?
Pittsburgh has the same reluctance; remember Alex Ponikarovsky?

Different players, different story. Judge the player based on his play, not the jersey he wears. For some reason a lot of HF struggles with this concept.

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02-06-2013, 08:43 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Yes . . .

Seriously, if you believe that the Leafs will keep Kulemin beyond next season, then he's worth more to you than any pick/prospect package that the Pens will put together.

If you believe that Kulemin won't be with the Leafs beyond next season, then the picks/prospect package probably is worth it.

If your aim is to leverage Kulemin as part of a package to get a high end talent, then I think you may agree that Kulemin would be the third piece in a deal like that and, for a deal like that, the pick/prospect package likely would hold more trade value than Kulemin for a team was moving a high end talent.
The Leafs don't have to have a concrete plan for Kulemin. They're interested in winning hockey games right now, eliminating the culture of losing, and he's a big part of trying to do both. He can fit in basically 4 different spots in the lineup, so there's definitely no urgency to make any move on him.

Trading him for picks / prospects isn't going to help our team.

As for what he could be used as in a package, this arbitrary guess of being the "3rd piece" is just that. Toronto's got a cupboard full of defensive prospects, something unique that we could be prepared to offer in the right deal is a guy who's scored 30 goals in the NHL, has size, two-way ability, and a reasonable contract.

If next year's deadline rolls around, we're out of it, and the intention isn't to retain Kulemin, then we'd look at a picks/prospects type deal.

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02-06-2013, 08:44 PM
  #431
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Tyler Kennedy + Second Rounder 2013 and maybe D prospect Brian Dumoulin (acquired in Staal deal) for Kulemin and a second rounder ought to do it. Brandon Sutter for Kulemin? Ray Shero would hang up the phone if Toronto asked for him, not Ray's style.

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02-06-2013, 08:46 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Tyler Kennedy + Second Rounder 2013 and maybe D prospect Brian Dumoulin (acquired in Staal deal) for Kulemin and a second rounder ought to do it. Brandon Sutter for Kulemin? Ray Shero would hang up the phone if Toronto asked for him, not Ray's style.
Exactly and the Pens have NOTHING the leafs want.

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02-06-2013, 08:48 PM
  #433
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To toronto > Beau Bennett + 3rd rounder , 2013 or 2014

To Pits > Kulemin

Gives Toronto a top six forward with size

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02-06-2013, 08:48 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Agreed. And, that's how, as a Pens fan, I'd hope Shero does it, holding pretty much all of his big chips to get Crosby's winger.

Question: Do you, as a Leafs fan, prefer Niskanen or Despres?

I wouldn't be thrilled, but I'd give you Kennedy, Niskanen, and a 2nd for Kulemin if you prefer a return based more on roster players. The 2nd is for a draft two rounds deep in typical first round talent. Niskanen at worst would be your #5 (arguably second pairing). Kennedy fills a lower line spot and lets you slot up one of your younger kids until Lupul returns.
Despres, although again I question whether or not he's capable of being the top 4 shutdown defenceman we need. The big (only) appeal in a deal like this would be getting a 21-year old defenceman who we'd be reasonably confident putting in our top 4 alongside Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and Liles/Gardiner next year.

Basically... trying to replace Luke Schenn in getting a young defenceman to build around in addition to Gardiner/Rielly... and my impression of Despres has been that he's never been that type of defenceman.

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02-06-2013, 08:49 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Damn you, Malkin, why can`t you be friends with Kovalchuk!
He'd be cheaper to acquire too.

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02-06-2013, 08:55 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I don't disagree. That's why I said maybe he 'settles' for the Maatta caliber guy PLUS a 2nd and a guy like Teddy Blueger (check him out before thinking he's a Tangradi caliber throw in; he was the Pens second round pick last year and looked sweet for an otherwise **** Latvian WJC team).

Anyway, point is, IF Nonis likes a Maatta caliber prospect as the centerpiece, then it seems that you and I are agreeing that a deal is far from impossible.
Nope i would not be shocked to see a TO, Pitt trade.

My issue with the Pitt 2nd is the likely hood that it will be in the 56-60th range and that just takes you a little bit to far out of the prime realstate.

Heck, your 1rst very likely could end up not being better then a Wash 2nd.

LOL, i don't get caught up in the tittles, 1rst 2nd yada yada , i count the draft slot #.

It's fair to say your 1rst is worth a fraction of say a Columbus 1rst?.

LA s 1rst held no more value then a Columbus 2nd last year.

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02-06-2013, 08:56 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Just curious, what do you think the odds are of drafting a Nikolai Kulemin 25-30?
Decent. No one is giving you anything that is guaranteed to be better than Kulemin. There have been players drafted late 1st and later a lot better than Kulemin, there have been even more who will never score 7 goals in an NHL season.

I gave you a pretty wide spectrum of offers between high risk (1st +) to lower risk (Despres) there and if none of them are appealing to you, then that is fine too.

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02-06-2013, 08:56 PM
  #438
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Exactly and the Pens have NOTHING the leafs want.
Kulemin does become a UFA in 2014, so what the Leafs can ask for him will go down in price if it looks like he wants to go somewhere else and they hold on to him. Just like the Caps did with Semin, should have traded him a couple of years ago and instead they got nothing and now they're paying for it.

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02-06-2013, 08:57 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Agreed. And, that's how, as a Pens fan, I'd hope Shero does it, holding pretty much all of his big chips to get Crosby's winger.

Question: Do you, as a Leafs fan, prefer Niskanen or Despres?

I wouldn't be thrilled, but I'd give you Kennedy, Niskanen, and a 2nd for Kulemin if you prefer a return based more on roster players. The 2nd is for a draft two rounds deep in typical first round talent. Niskanen at worst would be your #5 (arguably second pairing). Kennedy fills a lower line spot and lets you slot up one of your younger kids until Lupul returns.
I really don't get you at all. Why even bring up Despres at all? He isn't going anywhere and shouldn't.

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02-06-2013, 08:59 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Kulemin does become a UFA in 2014, so what the Leafs can ask for him will go down in price if it looks like he wants to go somewhere else and they hold on to him. Just like the Caps did with Semin, should have traded him a couple of years ago and instead they got nothing and now they're paying for it.
Your statement is predicated on the Leafs (Caps) not getting value out over those years that he wasn't traded.

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02-06-2013, 08:59 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
He'd be cheaper to acquire too.
It`s starting to look that way.

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02-06-2013, 09:01 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
I really don't get you at all. Why even bring up Despres at all? He isn't going anywhere and shouldn't.
You have to give something to get...a career bottom-of-the-lineup defenceman isn't going to motivate the Leafs to move Kulemin.

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02-06-2013, 09:13 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Decent. No one is giving you anything that is guaranteed to be better than Kulemin. There have been players drafted late 1st and later a lot better than Kulemin, there have been even more who will never score 7 goals in an NHL season.

I gave you a pretty wide spectrum of offers between high risk (1st +) to lower risk (Despres) there and if none of them are appealing to you, then that is fine too.
My point then is, why should the Leafs trade him? Chances are it's a downgrade. Literally what's the point?

That's what's so frustrating about this. It's not that Pens fans value him differently then Leafs fans, it's the constant threads everyday suggesting we go against the odds and roll the dice and trade a guy we don't even want to get rid of.

There clearly is a 'desire' for Pittsburgh to get him yet they act like the Leafs want to trade him.

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02-06-2013, 09:16 PM
  #444
marty111
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Kulemin does become a UFA in 2014, so what the Leafs can ask for him will go down in price if it looks like he wants to go somewhere else and they hold on to him. Just like the Caps did with Semin, should have traded him a couple of years ago and instead they got nothing and now they're paying for it.
Another question, is there some reason other then Kulemin being Malkin's friend that he doesn't want to stay in Toronto?

Why are we assuming the Leafs have to get rid of him at some point?

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02-06-2013, 09:23 PM
  #445
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It's funny, usually Leafs fans get ripped on all the time for "over-valuing" everything in their system and offering quantity for quality. Seems like this is being reversed. We really want Kulemin but you can only have our crap for him. We all know this guy would be dynamite with Malkin. You want a guy like that, you gotta pay for it. Kulemin is signed,still young and still has plenty of upside. Why exactly do the Leafs need to move their best defensive forward and 30 goal scorer? He'll walk as a UFA right? how many times do people say this when we know 90% of these guys re-sign.

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02-06-2013, 09:25 PM
  #446
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Kulemin would look awesome on Malkin's wing. Please let this happen.

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Old
02-06-2013, 09:29 PM
  #447
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I could see the Pens giving a 1st for Kulemin. He would resign in Pitts IMO to play with Malkin and it would make that team ridiculously stacked up front.

James Neal - Sidney Crosby - Chris Kunitz
Nikolai Kulemin - Evgeni Malkin - Pascal Dupuis

Yikes.

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02-06-2013, 09:30 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
It's funny, usually Leafs fans get ripped on all the time for "over-valuing" everything in their system and offering quantity for quality. Seems like this is being reversed. We really want Kulemin but you can only have our crap for him. We all know this guy would be dynamite with Malkin. You want a guy like that, you gotta pay for it. Kulemin is signed,still young and still has plenty of upside. Why exactly do the Leafs need to move their best defensive forward and 30 goal scorer? He'll walk as a UFA right? how many times do people say this when we know 90% of these guys re-sign.
are you serious??? do i really have to explain once again why this statement is completely stupid?

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02-06-2013, 09:32 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
It's funny, usually Leafs fans get ripped on all the time for "over-valuing" everything in their system and offering quantity for quality. Seems like this is being reversed. We really want Kulemin but you can only have our crap for him. We all know this guy would be dynamite with Malkin. You want a guy like that, you gotta pay for it. Kulemin is signed,still young and still has plenty of upside. Why exactly do the Leafs need to move their best defensive forward and 30 goal scorer? He'll walk as a UFA right? how many times do people say this when we know 90% of these guys re-sign.
A first or second round pick and one of our best D prospects isn't exactly crap. It's not like many of us are offering you Colton Orr and Joey Crabb types for him.

Kulemin would be a great fit for Pittsburgh and we like him alot. However, some of us are very skeptical if he is the 30-goal scorer or the 7-goal scorer. Big difference there wouldn't you say? Of course you want better value, but we certainly don't want to overpay for a guy that dropped 23 goals in one year. The value is somewhere in the middle - whatever that is.

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02-06-2013, 09:34 PM
  #450
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To those asking for a 1st...no. Just no.

You have to understand something...with the restructuring of the draft which makes 17-30th place eligible for the 1st Overall...VERY few teams are going to be trading off their 1st unless a playoff clinch is 99.999% likely.

The value of them have gone up considerably and I'll bet money that we see a drastic reduction in 1st rd trades. If there are, the values have gone up.

Kulemin, though a very good player and a possible good fit for Malkin, is NOT worth a 1st in any situation. A 2nd we can talk about but I think it's going to look more like roster player or prospect + a late pick or mid prospect. Perhaps something like Tangradi + 4th or Kennedy + 7th. Or a 3rd and 5th.

Sutter...you've got to be kidding...

A 1st...no...

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