I don't buy this. We have been a cap-team for some years now, and we are currently 10 million below. This has nothing to do with pinching pennies.
I rather think they simply didn't want to lose the 'guarantee' that Lovejoy is due to having played enough games in the NHL to be counted on as a 7th D-man. As Strait probably couldn't return much of anything in a trade prior to getting to the show, Shero would rather gamble on him clearing than take a conditional 5th pick for him or something like that.
Like most here, I think that was a wrong decision, but I do understand the argument if they were that unsure Strait, Borts and (less so) Despres could get the job done.
Who knows. I wouldn't totally discount the finances since neither was going to be in the plans beyond this season. I mean it's worth paying the difference if one is in the plans beyond this season but I don't think either was so why do it.
I don't buy this. We have been a cap-team for some years now, and we are currently 10 million below. This has nothing to do with pinching pennies.
I rather think they simply didn't want to lose the 'guarantee' that Lovejoy is due to having played enough games in the NHL to be counted on as a 7th D-man. As Strait probably couldn't return much of anything in a trade prior to getting to the show, Shero would rather gamble on him clearing than take a conditional 5th pick for him or something like that.
Like most here, I think that was a wrong decision, but I do understand the argument if they were that unsure Strait, Borts and (less so) Despres could get the job done.
Given the way Borts and Depregassus have played, maybe they really just thought Strait was the 3rd-best defensive guy, and wanted Lovejoy for the offensive touch they mistakenly think he brings.
Still hate the move, but now I mostly hate it because Bylsma still wants to find ways to get him into the lineup.
Boychuk's game in a bubble is fine. IMO, what he does is makes TK expendable. As a third wheel for Malkin and Neal, he doesn't cut it. I thought maybe there was some potential there after NJ, but his growing 'confidence' seems to entail an emergence of TK style tunnel vision and puck management. One can see glimpses with each passing shift why he washed out in Carolina.
While one could argue that Boychuk in his first game looked better with Malkin and Neal than Jeffrey did in his only game, Boychuk has looked worse and worse still in his subsequent two outings.
Come on KIRK, you are better than the bolded. That is a flat out lie. He is looking to pass fairly often. If there's one positive thing anyone can say about him is that he has good offensive instincts. He knows when to shoot and when to pass.
Take for example the play where he passed it back to Bortuzzo. He skates in wide off the wing and looks like he's going to shoot but then hits the late man Bort for a better shooting angle. TK shoots that 100 times out of 100.
He might not be the right fit for Geno/Neal but sometimes I wish people would hold them accountable for that. Why is it that they can only play well with one specific protoype of player? Personally, I think a player like Boychuk could mesh very well with them. We wanted a guy with offensive creativity that defenses had to pay attention to. Boychuck seems like he has enough skill to be that guy. Ideally he would have more size to dig out pucks but let's give it a few more games. I really don't see him hurting that line right now (I'm sure you disagree).
I liked Boychuk's game out there tonight the most so far, but his most obvious weakness showed up a couple times again. This kid is not strong on his skates at all. If he has speed he can put some good checks on people but if he doesn't, he literally bounces off every player he comes into contact with and falls down about half of the time. He needs to strengthen his trunk (core / back, upper legs), big-time if he wants to stay an NHL player IMO. For a guy that short, he should be stronger on his skates. No way around that one.
This has always been the conundrum with Boychuk in Carolina. He has good speed and offensive skills, but not strong on his skates or with the puck. He also seemed to disappear whenever someone laid a big hit on him. I think that, more than anything led to the inconsistency the Canes saw in him.
His game hasn't really been suited to a bottom 6 role (if your 3rd line is a defensive line) either as that was tried some under Maurice. So in Carolina, it was either top 6 or nothing. Not that he can't change that, but grit, defensive play and going into the dirty areas haven't been his game thus far.
Other guys were able to garner line-up spots even though they don't have as much offensive skill as Boychuk because they rounded out the other parts of their game. Tlusty is very good defensively, very good on the forecheck and developed some chemistry with E. Staal. Skinner was outstanding offensively and much stronger. Bowman is much better defensively and much more physical, even though he isn't nearly as skilled as Boychuk which made Bowman better suited to a 3rd line role.
He never got much of a chance under Muller (only 4 games last year and this year) so I still would like to see him get an extended look in a top 6 role to see what the kid can really do.
His game hasn't really been suited to a bottom 6 role (if your 3rd line is a defensive line) either as that was tried some under Maurice. So in Carolina, it was either top 6 or nothing. Not that he can't change that, but grit, defensive play and going into the dirty areas haven't been his game thus far.
Those were part of his game in junior, though. It's part of what made him a first-round pick. He was one of the safest bets to reach the NHL from his draft class, mainly because he has a versatile game that could translate to the NHL. So, it's there. We just need to bring it out of him.
Overall, I like him as a winger for Sutter's line next year. I'd like to see him replace either Cooke or Kennedy there, with Tangradi or Jeffrey taking the other spot.
Furthermore, I'm not even dissatisfied with his game on the Malkin line. I just know they won't give much him more time there. Bylsma's MO isn't patience with guys who don't light it up right away.
Those were part of his game in junior, though. It's part of what made him a first-round pick. He was one of the safest bets to reach the NHL from his draft class, mainly because he has a versatile game that could translate to the NHL. So, it's there. We just need to bring it out of him.
I understand. And believe me, most of us were pretty happy with that draft pick when it happened but for whatever reason, we haven't seen that from him. Maybe it will be like Briere where it took longer to develop, he bounced around a bit and he really didn't hit his stride until he drastically improved his strength.
This has always been the conundrum with Boychuk in Carolina. He has good speed and offensive skills, but not strong on his skates or with the puck. He also seemed to disappear whenever someone laid a big hit on him. I think that, more than anything led to the inconsistency the Canes saw in him.
His game hasn't really been suited to a bottom 6 role (if your 3rd line is a defensive line) either as that was tried some under Maurice. So in Carolina, it was either top 6 or nothing. Not that he can't change that, but grit, defensive play and going into the dirty areas haven't been his game thus far.
Other guys were able to garner line-up spots even though they don't have as much offensive skill as Boychuk because they rounded out the other parts of their game. Tlusty is very good defensively, very good on the forecheck and developed some chemistry with E. Staal. Skinner was outstanding offensively and much stronger. Bowman is much better defensively and much more physical, even though he isn't nearly as skilled as Boychuk which made Bowman better suited to a 3rd line role.
He never got much of a chance under Muller (only 4 games last year and this year) so I still would like to see him get an extended look in a top 6 role to see what the kid can really do.
Great post Boom Boom... thanks for stopping back to give more insight. I do see the potential that other people have seen in him, but whatever workout regimen or training they had going in Carolina was maybe not focused on the right things. He doesn't need the typical "NHL bulk-up" workout... he probaby needs a mix lower body strength and mass conditioning, and some of those funky balance workouts where you're standing on a lever-type thing with people throwing you a medicine ball, etc.
If he can eventually stay on his skates / absorb contact like a regular NHLer, he could be really good. I agree he's not a Bottom 6 type player unless you try to make your 3rd line a hybrid line and not pure shut-down. Could work with Sutter... but he's pretty small for the bottom 6 so for him to stick there I think he'd have to make a definite offensive impact to offset whatever defensive weakness he might show.
For the last couple of seasons, Boychuk's offseason training have been at Crash Conditioning (with Eberle and others). I have no idea how committed he is to it and much about the program.
I'm actually completely satisfied with him so far. I know it was Steiggy but he mentioned in the last broadcast all the time Bylsma spent going over video on how Geno and Neal work on that line. I think they're seeing the same things and may actually be patient with someone this time. He had a big game against the Caps already, I think he'll get on the scoresheet tomorrow.
You're completely satistfied with him getting knocked on his butt 2-3 times a game, without ever actually being hit hard? How do you think that will work out when the games get more physical running up to and into the playoffs? You ok with him getting knocked down every other or every third shift?
I guess it depends on expectations but he's not going to make this team better in a playoff atmosphere IMO; he's just not strong enough on his skates when the hits start flying. Not saying we should waive him (maybe keeping him and scratching him so he can learn our system via practices and get a new workout routine going with Kadar or whoever, is the right answer), but he's not ready to be a regular on the Top 6 even though the potential is there. Come October, who knows....
Two campers come upon an angry bear. The first says, "I'm glad I wore my running shoes." The second says, "you can't outrun the bear." The first says, "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you."
This is pretty much a no brainer. The kid has skill. Is he a guarentee? No. But the cost of finding out is Lovejoy or another borderline player. He does not need to be a worldbeater right now. If he flames out we lost nothing in the trial. And we are so desperate for wings with skill that it is absolutely a no brainer. As long as Boychuk is no worse than the bottom two or three guys on the roster you keep him and see. The regular season is virtually meaningless anyways. We could win enough to make the playoffs if you put Crosby in goal, Fleury as a wing, and Martin centering Fleury and Niskanen for a third of the year. Perfect time to try a guy like him out.
I guess the best comparative to this player and situation is Beau Bennett. It certainly is the best way to think about it. No, they are completely different types of forwards. But as far as prospects go, and Boychuk remains more prospect than player, they are comparable or in fact Boychuk is the better prospect given he has already played over 70 games in the NHL.
So the question you have to ask yourself is would this organization waive Bennett or Lovejoy if given the choice? Ignore that Boychuk was waived once already, given the comments from the Canes organization they would love to get him back and develop him, but they, unlikely us, are stacked at left wing.
To me that is the comparison that sticks. Beau Bennett to Boychuk.
Come on KIRK, you are better than the bolded. That is a flat out lie. He is looking to pass fairly often. If there's one positive thing anyone can say about him is that he has good offensive instincts. He knows when to shoot and when to pass.
Take for example the play where he passed it back to Bortuzzo. He skates in wide off the wing and looks like he's going to shoot but then hits the late man Bort for a better shooting angle. TK shoots that 100 times out of 100.
He might not be the right fit for Geno/Neal but sometimes I wish people would hold them accountable for that. Why is it that they can only play well with one specific protoype of player? Personally, I think a player like Boychuk could mesh very well with them. We wanted a guy with offensive creativity that defenses had to pay attention to. Boychuck seems like he has enough skill to be that guy. Ideally he would have more size to dig out pucks but let's give it a few more games. I really don't see him hurting that line right now (I'm sure you disagree).
I agree, I think he has played well. I have seen many nice plays by him and I would like people to point out anything they saw that he was not doing well. I have focused on him during his shifts and he seems to be doing fine. Each game Boychuk has set up other players for scoring chances and also gave himself some nice scoring chances with nice offensive instincts. He has battled and has won his fair share of those battles for the puck. I have seen nothing that would take him out of the line up. Tangradi and Jeffrey have shown next to nothing and they bring nothing to the ice. I don't like either, maybe Jeffrey as a grinder but I still don't like his wheels which is important in this system.
You're completely satistfied with him getting knocked on his butt 2-3 times a game, without ever actually being hit hard? How do you think that will work out when the games get more physical running up to and into the playoffs? You ok with him getting knocked down every other or every third shift?
I guess it depends on expectations but he's not going to make this team better in a playoff atmosphere IMO; he's just not strong enough on his skates when the hits start flying. Not saying we should waive him (maybe keeping him and scratching him so he can learn our system via practices and get a new workout routine going with Kadar or whoever, is the right answer), but he's not ready to be a regular on the Top 6 even though the potential is there. Come October, who knows....
You're seriously exaggerating how often he gets knocked down. He'll be just fine.
Let's see if he produces before we can't resist going bare assed on the company copy machine. Yeah, I know: stats, not telling the whole story, etc. etc., but you've got to produce to an extent.
Given the way Borts and Depregassus have played, maybe they really just thought Strait was the 3rd-best defensive guy, and wanted Lovejoy for the offensive touch they mistakenly think he brings.
Still hate the move, but now I mostly hate it because Bylsma still wants to find ways to get him into the lineup.
Icy, I don't really believe that's true. I think that rumor the yesterday about Despres being scratched for the game in favour of Despres was to send a message to the youngster. In other words, it was kinda somewhere in between getting benched (as he did for most of the 2nd half of the game against WSH) and being an outright scratch and sitting in the pressbox.
Coaches will try to light fires under arses in different ways. Maybe they thought benching Despres may have been too harsh and wanted to give him another chance, hence the rumor of him being scratched instead. But I don't think the organization or Bylsma would ever want to hae Lovejoy play signficant minutes and successive games. If Despres has another bad game and they wanted to scratch him to send a message, it would be cool if they brought up Dumoulin for a game or two instead of putting in Lovejoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
I guess the best comparative to this player and situation is Beau Bennett. It certainly is the best way to think about it. No, they are completely different types of forwards. But as far as prospects go, and Boychuk remains more prospect than player, they are comparable or in fact Boychuk is the better prospect given he has already played over 70 games in the NHL.
So the question you have to ask yourself is would this organization waive Bennett or Lovejoy if given the choice? Ignore that Boychuk was waived once already, given the comments from the Canes organization they would love to get him back and develop him, but they, unlikely us, are stacked at left wing.
To me that is the comparison that sticks. Beau Bennett to Boychuk.
Jaded, your posts usually make great sense and provide words of wisdom and insight. But you have completely lost me here with any kind of Bennett/Boychuk comparision, in any sense of the term. Even if I think about it hard, I cannot come up with any similarities.
Icy, I don't really believe that's true. I think that rumor the yesterday about Despres being scratched for the game in favour of Despres was to send a message to the youngster. In other words, it was kinda somewhere in between getting benched (as he did for most of the 2nd half of the game against WSH) and being an outright scratch and sitting in the pressbox.
Coaches will try to light fires under arses in different ways. Maybe they thought benching Despres may have been too harsh and wanted to give him another chance, hence the rumor of him being scratched instead. But I don't think the organization or Bylsma would ever want to hae Lovejoy play signficant minutes and successive games. If Despres has another bad game and they wanted to scratch him to send a message, it would be cool if they brought up Dumoulin for a game or two instead of putting in Lovejoy
Jaded, your posts usually make great sense and provide words of wisdom and insight. But you have completely lost me here with any kind of Bennett/Boychuk comparision, in any sense of the term. Even if I think about it hard, I cannot come up with any similarities.
Think about it. Boychuk was an even higher draft pick only . . . was it 4 years ago? Already 70 games at the nhl level. Shows the skill to be an nhl player. How is he less of a prospect than Bennett? I am not comparing the two other than level of prospect. I thought the comparison useful in how silly a notion it would be to waive him in a week or two. That was all that I was saying. He gives us another Bennett level forward prospect basically for free.
Boychuk is less of a prospect than Bennett because he's already 23 and has yet to be able to hold down a job at the NHL level. He's bordering on bust territory.
BB is only 21 and has no NHL games yet. You can't really compare the two.
You're seriously exaggerating how often he gets knocked down. He'll be just fine.
Pretty sure I'm not since... I've seen him get knocked to the ice no less than 4 or 5 times in 3 games, and I haven't watched him every shift either so might be more than that. None of the times he fell to the ice were hits; he just got bumped or tried to bump someone else and bounced off. That's what concerns me. Physically he is a boy among men out there. I'm not knocking the kid for sport... I DO like his game... but he needs work in the strength department.
Pretty sure I'm not since... I've seen him get knocked to the ice no less than 4 or 5 times in 3 games, and I haven't watched him every shift either so might be more than that. None of the times he fell to the ice were hits; he just got bumped or tried to bump someone else and bounced off. That's what concerns me. Physically he is a boy among men out there. I'm not knocking the kid for sport... I DO like his game... but he needs work in the strength department.
Bortuzzo has been getting bumped and falling down quite a bit aswell. Could be attributed to nerves and or strength issues.
Pretty sure I'm not since... I've seen him get knocked to the ice no less than 4 or 5 times in 3 games, and I haven't watched him every shift either so might be more than that. None of the times he fell to the ice were hits; he just got bumped or tried to bump someone else and bounced off. That's what concerns me. Physically he is a boy among men out there. I'm not knocking the kid for sport... I DO like his game... but he needs work in the strength department.
The times I've seen him knocked off his skates, it's been because he's shifted his upper body back to avoid the hit prior to getting hit. I do take your point because it is noticeable, however all the strength work in the world won't help if your body weight is back rather than forward.
The times I've seen him knocked off his skates, it's been because he's shifted his upper body back to avoid the hit prior to getting hit. I do take your point because it is noticeable, however all the strength work in the world won't help if your body weight is back rather than forward.
everyone has some room to improve.....just look at geno and his give aways....if we are going to only look at a players short comeings we will be dumping the whole team,[execpt sid] can they be fixed? if so, then it becomes a coaching problem. i have long wan'ted the pens to draft the high risk-high reward type player.....and we just go one for nothing...we have the rest of the season to get the kinks worked out...and if hes not ready for the offseason you give him till nex yr..... some of the best things take a little time imo
Anyone expect Boychuk to get another shot with the Penguins or will he keep on being a healthy scratch until traded/waived?
I don't think he'll get another shot if we stay healthy but all it takes is a rash of injuries and he'll get another chance. I do wonder if the Pens will play him against Carolina this week. Sometimes coaches like to get players in against former teams. That game is probably his best chance at getting back in anytime soon. No idea who would sit though.
] can they be fixed? if so, then it becomes a coaching problem. i have long wan'ted the pens to draft the high risk-high reward type player.....and we just go one for nothing...we have the rest of the season to get the kinks worked out...and if hes not ready for the offseason you give him till nex yr..... some of the best things take a little time imo
