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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXII - Kessel Run Edition

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Old
02-07-2013, 02:14 AM
  #76
shortshorts
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Because this whole 'shoot-first' thing is complete and utter ********. Kesler was a shoot-first player last year because that's the only way his line could get any offense. That was their gameplan, shoot it on net, get rebounds, try to bang them in. Rinse and repeat. We have one year of Kesler being a shoot-first guy and suddenly that's all he knows how to do?
It's not all he knows how to do. It's just what he's preferred and has used increasingly before last year. Many of us noticed (I believe you too) during his 40goal season, that he was over utilizing his shot after the Allstar break. and were growing increasingly frustrated. I also believe it was you who pointed out his lack of ES points after the Allstar break of that year.

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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
If we're going to call Kesler a shoot-first player, then perhaps we need to call Lupul one too? Shoots just as much as Kesler does. Then again, I don't think either of them is — they just like to shoot, it doesn't define their game.
I'll just disagree here. At this point, Kesler's shot is what defines his offensive game.


Edit: I agree with Biturbo entirely.

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02-07-2013, 02:15 AM
  #77
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Ugh! I don't get this idea that somehow a player who complete a pass is a "great playmaker".

Yes it's not something to scoff at (I mean look at Weise/Malhotra) but to me a 'great playmaker' is someone who create a play with a pass not someone who finds the open man with a crisp pass (not that this is a bad thing).

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02-07-2013, 02:20 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
Ugh! I don't get this idea that somehow a player who complete a pass is a "great playmaker".

Yes it's not something to scoff at (I mean look at Weise/Malhotra) but to me a 'great playmaker' is someone who create a play with a pass not someone who finds the open man with a crisp pass (not that this is a bad thing).



I can show more, if you'd like.

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Old
02-07-2013, 02:21 AM
  #79
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Would you make this deal?

Suppose we have every forward back healthy by the deadline so our depth looks like this

LW: D. Sedin - Booth - Raymond - Higgins - Volpatti
C: H. Sedin - Kesler - Schroeder - Malhotra - Lappy - Ebbett
RW: Kassian - Burrows - Hansen - Weise - (Jensen)

Would you be willing to trade Raymond to an eastern conference contender (while retaining half salary) for a pick in next years draft?

Clearly it's good to have a lot of skilled players like this but considering Raymond doesn't fit into our future plans would you be willing to ship him out to get a return? Would we also have to be bringing in a player (perhaps on better suited for a 3rd line role)?


I have been thinking about this too, and I believe they have to deal Raymond. They should. He's going to get bumped down the roster due to being better defensively than Booth, and not being a big enough body for the top6. He's just going to get lost in the shuffle.


Boston had Paille on their 4th line. So Raymond could be that for us. However, I think they just need to get value for him before he gets put into a position where he isn't going to contribute offensively. That black hole is called the 4th line. Therefore, if there is a chance to get a younger asset for him, I hope they trade him.


An Eller for Raymond swap made sense to me when Eller was in the doghouse early. Now though, he's clawed his way out and has looked good. It's a deal I'd still make though, if it could be worked out.

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02-07-2013, 02:25 AM
  #80
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At college, Kessel was the setup man for Ryan Potulny. Notching 33 assists on Potulny's 38 goals, while only scoring 18 himself. When Kessel has other goal scorers to play with, he most certainly can be the playmaker they need. That is the reason he went where he did in the draft and was even compared to Crosby at one point.

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02-07-2013, 02:26 AM
  #81
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I think Montreal's management has been making a conscious effort to get away from Raymond type players. Doubt they'd be interested.

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02-07-2013, 02:41 AM
  #82
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Well, at least the Kessel proposals in here are more palatable than some of the packages being offered up on the main boards. Schneider, Corrado, Jensen, and a 2013 1st? Really? Now I know to stay away from that thread.

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02-07-2013, 02:44 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Well, at least the Kessel proposals in here are more palatable than some of the packages being offered up on the main boards. Schneider, Corrado, Jensen, and a 2013 1st? Really? Now I know to stay away from that thread.
I always feel like all the Canucks posters on the trades forum suffer from the Stockholm syndrome or something similar.

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02-07-2013, 02:47 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I always feel like all the Canucks posters on the trades forum suffer from the Stockholm syndrome or something similar.
On the trade forums it seems like if a player is proposed for too long (no matter his stature) his value will become negative.

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02-07-2013, 03:20 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I think Montreal's management has been making a conscious effort to get away from Raymond type players. Doubt they'd be interested.

Yeah, but you gotta hope right? I think odds are that CHI and MTL work something out for Bickell/Stalberg for Eller. Seems about right.


Of they'll just keep working with Eller and see what he develops into.

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02-07-2013, 04:20 AM
  #86
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I have been thinking about this too, and I believe they have to deal Raymond. They should. He's going to get bumped down the roster due to being better defensively than Booth, and not being a big enough body for the top6. He's just going to get lost in the shuffle.


Boston had Paille on their 4th line. So Raymond could be that for us. However, I think they just need to get value for him before he gets put into a position where he isn't going to contribute offensively. That black hole is called the 4th line. Therefore, if there is a chance to get a younger asset for him, I hope they trade him.


An Eller for Raymond swap made sense to me when Eller was in the doghouse early. Now though, he's clawed his way out and has looked good. It's a deal I'd still make though, if it could be worked out.
I think it'd be a luxury if we could have Raymond on the 4th line. Puts some skill there and as someone who drives possession and is good defensively, he would only help it do what it's supposed to. Now you have a line that can play a useful ~10 minutes per game instead of the crap we've seen in the past.

If the goal is to win the Cup this year, I think MayRay helps more.

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02-07-2013, 04:33 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
I think it'd be a luxury if we could have Raymond on the 4th line. Puts some skill there and as someone who drives possession and is good defensively, he would only help it do what it's supposed to. Now you have a line that can play a useful ~10 minutes per game instead of the crap we've seen in the past.

If the goal is to win the Cup this year, I think MayRay helps more.

Raymond still has issues along the boards and refuses to go to the net with regularity. It's why he remains inconsistent. I think that in the capacity that the 4th line is used, someone like Weise helps it more than Raymond does. If he's not in a scoring role, or playing with players that have the ability to make plays, I'm not sure he's all that useful.


Odds are they keep him and let him just walk in the offseason, but I think they should move him while they can.


His skill is diminished by his ineffectiveness on the boards and inability to mesh with our C talent. Even with Schroeder he's hit or miss. Hansen looks better with Schroeder than Raymond does IMO.

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Old
02-07-2013, 04:49 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Well, at least the Kessel proposals in here are more palatable than some of the packages being offered up on the main boards. Schneider, Corrado, Jensen, and a 2013 1st? Really? Now I know to stay away from that thread.
Leaf fans want more for Kulemin than they are prepared to give up for Luongo. Some even want more for MacArthur.....

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Old
02-07-2013, 04:52 AM
  #89
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I want Raymond to do well. He has all the tools. Needs to slow his game down.

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02-07-2013, 05:18 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Well, at least the Kessel proposals in here are more palatable than some of the packages being offered up on the main boards. Schneider, Corrado, Jensen, and a 2013 1st? Really? Now I know to stay away from that thread.
I wouldn't even do Jensen and Corrado for Kessel let alone with Schneider and a 1st, I really hope that has come from a Toronto fan.....

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02-07-2013, 09:24 AM
  #91
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People are too easily disregarding Kesler's playmaking abilities and general tendencies. He only puck hogs when he has little to no confidence in his linemates. The reason AMEX developed chemistry was he had some belief Booth and Higgins could handle an offensive play and simply watch it die on their sticks. Kessel would be the best player he as played with short of the Sedins. What I find perplexing is how frequent many want to reunite Burrows and Kesler, yet bring up this shoot first argument. Burrows/Kesler/Booth will follow the same paradigm, albeit with less scoring potential.

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I wouldn't even do Jensen and Corrado for Kessel let alone with Schneider and a 1st, I really hope that has come from a Toronto fan.....
Congratulations, Schneider is officially overrated. While he undoubtedly talented, Kessel has considerably higher value. He is a four time 30+ (37 high) goal scorer at the age of twenty four. This, despite having Tyler friggin' Bozak as his center. Henrik or Kesler could realistically get him to crack fifty.

And for those saying we cannot fit his cap.

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Phil Kessel ($5.346m1.0%)
Chris Higgins ($2.300m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.100m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m)
Aaron Volpatti ($0.750m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.250m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Dale Weise ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Kevin Connauton ($0.750m) / Chris Tanev ($1.200m)
Andrew Alberts ($0.850m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Ben Scrivens ($0.613m)
OTHER
Buyout: David Booth ($0.000m)
Buyout: Keith Ballard ($0.000m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.062% of upper limit)
Cory Schneider ($0.040m1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,796,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $504,000
------------

We can indeed. Say we did the steepest trade: Schneider + Gaunce + 1st + 2nd. We sell Booth and Ballard for picks - seconds apiece. We come out with Kessel, Scrivens and two mid-range seconds. Hardly a bad place to be.

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02-07-2013, 09:42 AM
  #92
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I truly think that would be the best possible move for us to maximize our chance at winning a cup over the next two years. And assuming the 2nd is in 2014(or even more likely, us not having to add a 2nd at all), we would likely end up with 3 2nds in a deep draft that could certainly boost our prospect pool.

We would have top 5 goaltending, offense, and defense easily, and we have enough young players on that roster to keep us competitive for many years to come.

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02-07-2013, 09:51 AM
  #93
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I wouldn't even do Jensen and Corrado for Kessel let alone with Schneider and a 1st, I really hope that has come from a Toronto fan.....
I'd do Schneider, Booth (because there's no way we'd fit under the cap with Booth and Kessel both here) and a non first round pick for Kessel, max. Maybe add in a prospect not named Gaunce, Corrado or Jensen (not sure who that leaves lols) In no way am I suggesting that's fair value for Kessel, I think he's an excellent player, but I think Dave Nonis is foolish and therefore I will daydream about that deal being a possibility. I think Kessel would do well here because he would be, at most, third in line for public criticism after the Sedins and Luongo, and most likely Kesler too. I think he probably excels with less pressure on him.

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02-07-2013, 10:01 AM
  #94
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Oh, the old shoot-first Kesler debate.

Ask yourself this question: Would you be willing to give the puck up to Mason Raymond, knowing full well you aren't going to get back?

Raymond is a nice person, but as a player, I imagine he is among the most frustrating to play with for his teammates. He suffers the same thing most of dogged Ryan Murphy for at the world juniors. Exceptional speed, skills and agility, but when he gets in the offensive zone he can't make a damn play to save his life.

I don't believe he has a clue about give and go hockey, at all.

If I'm Kesler, I'm shooting the puck. Kesler sure passes a lot when he's on the PP with the Twins, I imagine with another very good offensive player (or a least one who thinks the game well - Burrows) you'll see a lot more playmaking and driving to the net (game 7 against the Blackhawks first goal).

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02-07-2013, 10:19 AM
  #95
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All the discussion about Kessel reminds me of all the stupid things people on here said about Alex Semin last year.

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Old
02-07-2013, 10:27 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
All the discussion about Kessel reminds me of all the stupid things people on here said about Alex Semin last year.
I think Semin did deserve some of that criticism though.

I don't think anyone questioned his talent.

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02-07-2013, 10:58 AM
  #97
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I truly think that would be the best possible move for us to maximize our chance at winning a cup over the next two years. And assuming the 2nd is in 2014(or even more likely, us not having to add a 2nd at all), we would likely end up with 3 2nds in a deep draft that could certainly boost our prospect pool.

We would have top 5 goaltending, offense, and defense easily, and we have enough young players on that roster to keep us competitive for many years to come.
Aye. This is what I'm advocating as well. Assuming the lineup I posted above, we would easily boast one of the best purely talented rosters in the league. For some there is concern about retaining Kessel long-term but I do not see Gillis having issues doing so. Frankly, I see Kessel wanting to stick around. He would not be in the limelight by virtue of not being "the guy." The Sedins, Kesler and even Luongo would all take priority over him. Add to that a great opportunity to win a cup or two and why not?

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02-07-2013, 11:23 AM
  #98
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All the discussion about Kessel reminds me of all the stupid things people on here said about Alex Semin last year.
True that. For what he was reportedly asking for(2 years at 5mil per) I would have definitely wanted us to sign him.

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02-07-2013, 11:34 AM
  #99
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Oh please. Kessel had 45 assists last year centred by Tyler Bozak.

You don't pass down young talent like Kessel because he's shoot-first. He still has far more playmaking ability than anyone Kesler's ever played with not named Sedin.
+1
Kessel would make the second line better but not at the expense of Kassian +Schneider
the guy is an ufa next year--to much future talent given up by the Canucks.

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02-07-2013, 11:41 AM
  #100
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+1
Kessel would make the second line better but not at the expense of Kassian +Schneider
the guy is an ufa next year--to much future talent given up by the Canucks.
Aye. The highest I would go is the aforementioned, Schneider + Gaunce + 1st + 2nd (2014). Preferably, we do not need to add a second but I'd be willing to do so. I have a hard time selling Jensen and refuse to trade Kassian right now. We simply do not have the prospect depth.

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