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Ville de Québec Part VII: Si J'avais les ailes d'un ange

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Old
02-07-2013, 01:00 AM
  #801
sipowicz
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Where did you get those numbers, in the latest census in 2011, Quebec was in front of Winnipeg
ici:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo05a-fra.htm

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02-07-2013, 01:02 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Next Canadian city to get an NHL team? Look at the list

Cities population on july 1st 2012

Toronto..............5 941,5
Montréal........... 3 957,7
Vancouver....... 2 463,7
Calgary..............1 309,2
Ottawa-Gatineau..1 273,3
Edmonton............1 230,1
Winnipeg................778,4
Québec..................769,6
Hamilton................756,6
Does Québec numbers include the city of Lévis? Because Lévis is just next to Quebec on the other side of the river and in 2011 it had close to 140K population. (up from 120K in 2001)

EDIT: Nevermind, it does. Also Quebec was ahead of Winnipeg until 2011, but since then Winnipeg population has been increasing faster than Quebec.

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02-07-2013, 01:18 AM
  #803
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
This table was made on a projection of the 2006 census. The 2011 census showed these numbers:

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...=3&O=D&RPP=150


Last edited by Undertakerqc: 02-07-2013 at 01:35 AM.
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02-07-2013, 08:17 AM
  #804
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Now now now...it's not 40 to 60k difference that's gonna make a difference, is it ?

Winnipeg and Quebec are comparable markets, in a lot of aspects. Winnipeg is proof a ''small'' market can support NHL as long as its in Canada and it is also a proof that a team can make profit with 15000 people in the building every night.

It's like a benchmark for NHL.

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02-07-2013, 09:27 AM
  #805
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Seattle taking the lead for Yotes?

Yesterday, David Stern, NBA commish, confirmed that a group from Seattle filed the forms to buy the Sacramento Kings and to relocate them to Seattle. The Kings would play in Key Arena for 2-3 years and then they will use the new amphitheater which is planned to be built by 2015.

http://www.king5.com/video/featured-...190125291.html

If this relocation is confirmed by the BOG of the NBA in March, this could mean that the Yotes aren't heading to Québec City next season.

Seattle represent a much better argument for the NHL when times comes for TV rights (bigger AMERICAN market).

The Yotes would be cheap to buy (170 millions) and since hockey is NOT the priority in Seattle the money asked for an expansion (roughly 300 millions) could be dissuasive for any investor who would like the develop Seattle market. The Yotes are already a playoff contender and their success could help for the development of Seattle as a hockey market. Never forget that after MLB, NFL, NBA and NCAA, NHL would come far in the level of interest. A winning team could attract more attention than an expansion team that will spend the first 4 to 5 year at the bottom of the standings.

Since Seattle is getting it's NBA team that would mean a confirmation for the new arena. This confirmation could be the sign that the NHL was waiting for to move the Yotes.

Moving the Yotes from a big american market to another big american market would be good for NHL's image and credibility.

That would mean a new team for Québec City around 2015 if, and only if, the rumors of expansion are true. Money from an expansion would be spent with almost no question asked by PKP since he is in desperate need of a team to support his aspirations in Québec's sport market (TVA Sports). Plus, since we are craving to have a team here in Québec City we would support any kind of team even if this one would stay at the bottom of the league.

Yotes to Seattle = more money for NHL and less risk for the development of this new and big american hockey market. If Seattle gets the Sacramento Kings, I think this will mean relocation for the Yotes.

What do you think?


Last edited by AllezlesBleus: 02-07-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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02-07-2013, 09:31 AM
  #806
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Originally Posted by AllezlesBleus View Post
Yotes to Seattle = more money for NHL and less risk for the development of this new and big american hockey market. If Seattle gets the Sacramento Kings, I think this will mean relocation for the Yotes.

What do you think?
Ridiculous. There is no NHL level arena for 3 years. And there's no NHL owner yet.

Peladeau has been lobying the NHL for YEARS.

I know there are idiots on the NHL top level, but I think it's unlikely they are that dumb.

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02-07-2013, 09:32 AM
  #807
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Originally Posted by AllezlesBleus View Post
Yesterday, David Stern, NBA commish, confirmed that a group from Seattle filed the forms to buy the Sacramento Kings and to relocate them to Seattle. The Kings would play in Key Arena for 2-3 years and then they will use the new amphitheater which is planned to be built by 2015.

http://www.king5.com/video/featured-...190125291.html

If this relocation is confirmed by the BOG of the NBA in March, this could mean that the Yotes aren't heading to Québec City next season.

Seattle represent a much better argument for the NHL when times comes for TV rights (bigger AMERICAN market).

The Yotes would be cheap to buy (170 millions) and since hockey is the THE priority in Seattle the money asked for an expansion (roughly 300 millions) could be dissuasive for any investor who would like the develop Seattle market. The Yotes are already a playoff contender and their success could help for the development of Seattle as a hockey market. Never forget that after MLB, NFL, NBA and NCAA, NHL would come far in the level of interest. A winning team could attract more attention than an expansion team that will spend the first 4 to 5 year at the bottom of the standings.

Since Seattle is getting it's NBA team that would mean a confirmation for the new arena. This confirmation could be the sign that the NHL was waiting for to move the Yotes.

Moving the Yotes from a big american market to another big american market would be good for NHL's image and credibility.

That would mean a new team for Québec City around 2015 if, and only if, the rumors of expansion are true. Money from an expansion would be spent with almost no question asked by PKP since he is in desperate need of a team to support his aspirations in Québec's sport market (TVA Sports). Plus, since we are craving to have a team here in Québec City we would support any kind of team even if this one would stay at the bottom of the league.

Yotes to Seattle = more money for NHL and less risk for the development of this new and big american hockey market. If Seattle gets the Sacramento Kings, I think this will mean relocation for the Yotes.

What do you think?
I think if this sale goes to court, it'll take many years to settle. So we shall sit down, wait and see.

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02-07-2013, 09:42 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Acesolid View Post
Peladeau has been lobying the NHL for YEARS.
So true. But the Yotes has been managed by the NHL for... years! Yet, a lot of sports reporter (ESPN, Sportsnet, TSN) can't find the way to explain NHL's will to keep the Yotes in Arizona.

Are they losing money and waiting because they know a more interesting hockey market is on the horizon in the USA?

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02-07-2013, 11:57 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by AllezlesBleus View Post
So true. But the Yotes has been managed by the NHL for... years! Yet, a lot of sports reporter (ESPN, Sportsnet, TSN) can't find the way to explain NHL's will to keep the Yotes in Arizona.

Are they losing money and waiting because they know a more interesting hockey market is on the horizon in the USA?
They can't find a way because we've heard all crap they could have said to us, and we've heard it more than once, there is simply nothing that could make people go : Ah oh, that makes sense.

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02-07-2013, 12:31 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
This table was made on a projection of the 2006 census. The 2011 census showed these numbers:

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...=3&O=D&RPP=150
It's a pointless pissing match but IIRC, somehow the yearly estimates are more accurate than the actual counts. I'm too lazy to find the explanation but it's on the internets somewhere.

Regardless, the Winnipeg and Quebec City CMAs are roughly the same size, but QC has quite a bit more population in a 90-minute radius (Beauce, Trois-Rivières). Not sure how that really matters.

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02-07-2013, 05:05 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
It's a pointless pissing match but IIRC, somehow the yearly estimates are more accurate than the actual counts. I'm too lazy to find the explanation but it's on the internets somewhere.

Regardless, the Winnipeg and Quebec City CMAs are roughly the same size, but QC has quite a bit more population in a 90-minute radius (Beauce, Trois-Rivières). Not sure how that really matters.
Winnipeg's population is much more concentrated in the city, so I expect Winnipeg to be slightly better off than Quebec City at the gate. Quebec's City's biggest mistake may be making an arena that is too big for the market. Quebec City will likely be better off on TV and corporate support. On fan appeal, it's tough to say which one is better at the moment. On raw revenues and profits, it's tough to say which one is better, but having more of it's population closer to the city center is a clear advantage for Winnipeg. One of the reasons the NHL does better in Canada is because our population is more concentrated towards big city centers. Don't get me wrong though. With the dollar at parity, Quebec City will probably do just as well as Winnipeg has. When doing comparisons, you should look at city population before metro-population.

Winnipeg 663,617
Quebec City 516,622
Hamilton 519,949
Mississauga 713,443
Brampton 523,911

NHL Cities with less than 500k in City population:
Raleigh 426,708
St. Louis 356,587
Anaheim 353,643
Tampa 343,890
Pittsburgh 311,647
Saint Paul 287,151
Newark 278,154
Buffalo 276,059
Glendale 246,531
Sunrise 90,793
Uniondale 23,299

NHL Cities with more than 500k in City population:

New York 8,453,558
Los Angeles 4,065,585
Chicago 2,853,114
Toronto 2,615,060
Montreal 1,649,519
Philadelphia 1,556,396
Dallas 1,299,543
Calgary 1,096,833
San Jose 948,279
Detroit 910,920
Ottawa 883,391
Edmonton 812,201
Columbus 769,360
Winnipeg 663,617
Boston 645,169
Nashville 635,710
Denver 610,345
Vancouver 603,502
Washington 601,723

Quebec City's revenues should be somewhere between 0.8 to 1.1 times that of Winnipeg's. Most primary tickets come from season ticket holders, which logically should come from people closer to the arena. When using the metro population as your base, you are disregarding the "cost of travel". Believe it or not, Winnipeg is NOT a "small market" and neither is Quebec City. Especially with the dollar at parity, both markets should be close to top 10 in the near future at a bare minimum 1M a game in ticket revenue - 42M ticket revenue for the season - 100M total revenue

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02-07-2013, 05:21 PM
  #812
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The only numbers that matter today are the TV households and the Quebec broadcast footprint in much higher than Winnipeg.

Fans in Montreal will watch a Quebec team on TVA Sports.

Bottom line is as long as the CDN$ stays equal with the USD$ markets like Winnipeg and Quebec will do fine. Remember in 1995 the loonie was only worth about 65 cents US and that was a killer.

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02-07-2013, 05:21 PM
  #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllezlesBleus View Post
If this relocation is confirmed by the BOG of the NBA in March, this could mean that the Yotes aren't heading to Québec City next season.

Seattle represent a much better argument for the NHL when times comes for TV rights (bigger AMERICAN market).
Not sure about it,
Television audience would be bigger with another team in Quebec than in Seattle, the US TV deal is already signed but a new one in Canada is coming very soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllezlesBleus View Post
The Yotes would be cheap to buy (170 millions) and since hockey is NOT the priority in Seattle the money asked for an expansion (roughly 300 millions) could be dissuasive for any investor who would like the develop Seattle market.
Yotes in Seattle would cost the same than an expension in 3 years :
170millions for the yotes + renovating the Key Arena to a "minimum" NHL standard + 3 years deficit in the Key = 300 millions

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02-07-2013, 05:24 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by AllezlesBleus View Post
So true. But the Yotes has been managed by the NHL for... years! Yet, a lot of sports reporter (ESPN, Sportsnet, TSN) can't find the way to explain NHL's will to keep the Yotes in Arizona.

Are they losing money and waiting because they know a more interesting hockey market is on the horizon in the USA?
OT but I love your username and hope it becomes our chant if we get a team. We better not get the Ole Ole's I'm dead tired of those

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02-07-2013, 05:31 PM
  #815
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Winnipeg's population is much more concentrated in the city, so I expect Winnipeg to be slightly better off than Quebec City at the gate. Quebec's City's biggest mistake may be making an arena that is too big for the market. Quebec City will likely be better off on TV and corporate support. On fan appeal, it's tough to say which one is better at the moment. On raw revenues and profits, it's tough to say which one is better, but having more of it's population closer to the city center is a clear advantage for Winnipeg. One of the reasons the NHL does better in Canada is because our population is more concentrated towards big city centers. Don't get me wrong though. With the dollar at parity, Quebec City will probably do just as well as Winnipeg has. When doing comparisons, you should look at city population before metro-population.

Winnipeg 663,617
Quebec City 516,622
Hamilton 519,949
Mississauga 713,443
Brampton 523,911

NHL Cities with less than 500k in City population:
Raleigh 426,708
St. Louis 356,587
Anaheim 353,643
Tampa 343,890
Pittsburgh 311,647
Saint Paul 287,151
Newark 278,154
Buffalo 276,059
Glendale 246,531
Sunrise 90,793
Uniondale 23,299

NHL Cities with more than 500k in City population:

New York 8,453,558
Los Angeles 4,065,585
Chicago 2,853,114
Toronto 2,615,060
Montreal 1,649,519
Philadelphia 1,556,396
Dallas 1,299,543
Calgary 1,096,833
San Jose 948,279
Detroit 910,920
Ottawa 883,391
Edmonton 812,201
Columbus 769,360
Winnipeg 663,617
Boston 645,169
Nashville 635,710
Denver 610,345
Vancouver 603,502
Washington 601,723

Quebec City's revenues should be somewhere between 0.8 to 1.1 times that of Winnipeg's. Most primary tickets come from season ticket holders, which logically should come from people closer to the arena. When using the metro population as your base, you are disregarding the "cost of travel". Believe it or not, Winnipeg is NOT a "small market" and neither is Quebec City. Especially with the dollar at parity, both markets should be close to top 10 in the near future at a bare minimum 1M a game in ticket revenue - 42M ticket revenue for the season - 100M total revenue

Metro is better than just the city : people living in the Quebec metro are working in Quebec City, why would it be a problem to buy tickets and go to the arena for those people ?? In fact, before the Nordiques left the town, we had people coming from all around the Quebec Metro (Saguenay, Trois-Rivieres, Beauce), and when you look at the greater Quebec City area, you can reach 1.2 million people.

So a 18 000 seats arena is perfect for the city.
but the real advantage for Quebec over Winnipeg is the TV market.


Last edited by Matrix78: 02-07-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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02-07-2013, 05:40 PM
  #816
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When doing comparisons, you should look at city population before metro-population.
I couldn't disagree more with that statement, for small market at least. (Who are by definition, smaller) I live in Lévis, the south shore of Québec city. I am at at most 20 minutes from the colisée and yet, I'm not included in the metropolitain area. In the old days of the Nordique, there was dozen of buses from Saguenay, Trois-Rivières and the east of the province comming at the games. If a team ever came back, it will be a entire region team.

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02-07-2013, 06:35 PM
  #817
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I couldn't disagree more with that statement, for small market at least. (Who are by definition, smaller) I live in Lévis, the south shore of Québec city. I am at at most 20 minutes from the colisée and yet, I'm not included in the metropolitain area. In the old days of the Nordique, there was dozen of buses from Saguenay, Trois-Rivières and the east of the province comming at the games. If a team ever came back, it will be a entire region team.
You do are included in the metro area, it's the city one you are not included in. With that said, I also don't understand why the city numbers would matter more than enlarged ones when it's easy to drive around the city, save for rush hours, and even then it's on given roads, it still is easy to adapt with a bit of creativity. Some people in Lévis are possibly closer to the arena than people living in some parts of Québec, a geographical (with travel times) rather than administrative approach seems more appropriate.

On the estimate VS census: I don't see how a more than 5 years old projection would be more accurate than a year old census. Statistically, it's already pretty damn weak to project 3 years ahead, let alone more. Also, IIRC, providing the very basic informations in the context of a census is still required.

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02-07-2013, 06:38 PM
  #818
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It's a pointless pissing match but IIRC, somehow the yearly estimates are more accurate than the actual counts. I'm too lazy to find the explanation but it's on the internets somewhere.

Regardless, the Winnipeg and Quebec City CMAs are roughly the same size, but QC has quite a bit more population in a 90-minute radius (Beauce, Trois-Rivières). Not sure how that really matters.
Its not a pissing match, just trying to get the facts right. I really admire the people of Winnipeg, and they have been great allies in our goal to get a team. They made the case of how relevant it is to put a team in a hockey mad city of our size.

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02-07-2013, 06:39 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by JB52 View Post
I couldn't disagree more with that statement, for small market at least. (Who are by definition, smaller) I live in Lévis, the south shore of Québec city. I am at at most 20 minutes from the colisée and yet, I'm not included in the metropolitain area. In the old days of the Nordique, there was dozen of buses from Saguenay, Trois-Rivières and the east of the province comming at the games. If a team ever came back, it will be a entire region team.
Lévis is included in the Statcan sensus for metro Québec City

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02-07-2013, 06:47 PM
  #820
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You do are included in the metro area, it's the city one you are not included in..
Yes, my mistake, that's what I meant.

The south shore is not in the city, that's why Metro is more accurate.

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02-07-2013, 06:49 PM
  #821
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Lévis is included in the Statcan sensus for metro Québec City
He made a mistake, his answer was for the one who said that metro is not as good as just the city for the population, in this case, Lévis is in the metro but not in the city stat. So, it's like saying people from Lévis doesn't count when talking about the nhl market for a team.


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02-07-2013, 06:51 PM
  #822
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He made a mistake, his answer was for the one who said that metro is not as good as just the city for the population, in this case, Lévis is in the metro but not in the city stat. So, it's like saying people from Lévis doesn't count when talking about the nhl market for a team.

Move a team there. The Lévis Nordiques? Has a nice ring to it

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02-07-2013, 08:32 PM
  #823
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Adding the Levis city population to the Quebec City population I get 655,391 to Winnipeg's 663,617. Very comparable. Levis looks like it acts like a "twin city" like Gatineau does to Ottawa. Quebec City - Levis is still less tightly packed. I don't deny Quebec City will do better for TV revenues and corporate support. The gate for Quebec City though will be very similar or a hint less unless Quebec City is a lot more passionate than Winnipeg (very possible). An 18k arena is a lot though for it's population. It'll definitely sell out, but at what price?

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02-07-2013, 10:42 PM
  #824
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(...) An 18k arena is a lot though for it's population. It'll definitely sell out, but at what price?
Average disposable income in Quebec City is the highest in the Province of Quebec, even higher than in Vancouver. Unemployement is one the lowest, if not the lowest in North America. I would not worry too much... There won't be many Monday Specials where beer, drinks and hot dogs are $1 each!

http://www.quebecinternational.ca/ec...tics/overview/

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02-08-2013, 01:15 AM
  #825
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Would the new Nords be a budget team or one that spends freely? I'm at the point where I'm thinking I'd enjoy it more if the Coyotes moved. The gong show with contracts and the budget is getting to me.

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