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Pens eyeing Kulemin

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Old
02-07-2013, 10:37 AM
  #626
KIRK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dying Alive View Post
What Kulemin is worth in a trade aside, I don't see what being buddies with Malkin has to do with anything. Colby Armstrong was Sid's bff on the team and Shero moved him out of town on the Hossa deal.

It's nice to be able to play with your friends, sure, but these are grown ass men getting paid a lot of money to do their jobs and be professionals. I don't see the fact that Kulemin and Malkin are friends playing into it whatsoever. Now if Shero wants to consider the chemistry they had in the KHL that's another matter entirely, but he's not stupid enough to overpay so that Malkin can have his friend as a teammate.
As just noted, I'd consider the 'chemistry' they show playing against one another in the NHL, specifically how Kulemin reads what Malkin is doing with and without the puck, more than KHL chemistry.

I love Kulemin's game. No secret there. But, he goes to another level on the ice against Malkin.

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02-07-2013, 10:38 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Honestly, those two picks could be within 10-15 spots of one another.
Can't see it,

I'm trying to find what would motivate DN to want to move NK.

The idea of that extra pick in the top 40 along with a good but not blue chip prospect, might do it.

It would serve DN little incentive or value to move say 8 ,10 slots that far into the draft.

The whole premise is that the extra pick holds some insurance if the prospect turns into a bust.

The motivation for DN would be that he has 2 shots at having 2 players of Kuli s value down the road.

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02-07-2013, 10:41 AM
  #628
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Sutter's a perfect fit in Pitts, theres no sense trading him. Kulemin or MacArthur would work in there but the leafs and pens aren't the best trading partners

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02-07-2013, 10:44 AM
  #629
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Kulemin is at best the third most valuable piece for a high end player like that. The days of him being one of two big pieces went out the window 18 months ago. Even if he starts scoring a little more for the rest of the year, his value this summer would be downgraded by his only having one year left on his deal and being an impending UFA who could want the 4M+ he'd ask for if he were scoring more (that's a tough investment for a GM given the streaky scoring history).


The trade value for Kuli as it sits right now is 2 reg seasons and 2 PO runs at a very good cap hit.

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02-07-2013, 10:47 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I don't disagree, although I'll leave the exact bookmaking to you.
I'll have you know sir, i had us projected drafting top 3, when BB made the Kessel trade.

Had us projected top 5 pick last year, with a honest shot at top 3, also.

Been following the leafs for over 40 years, seen it all.

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02-07-2013, 10:50 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Kulemin is at best the third most valuable piece for a high end player like that. The days of him being one of two big pieces went out the window 18 months ago. Even if he starts scoring a little more for the rest of the year, his value this summer would be downgraded by his only having one year left on his deal and being an impending UFA who could want the 4M+ he'd ask for if he were scoring more (that's a tough investment for a GM given the streaky scoring history).
For what Toronto has, he is not easily just traded for a prospect we don't necessarily need.

Even if he's not in his 2010-2011 form, he's still a reliably effective player you can put in just about any situation. And, if you're trading him to Pittsburgh, his numbers will inevitably inflate.

With that said, maybe he's not worth Sutter straight up, but I would consider him in some kind of package deal for Sutter, which I do think is more feasible.

As far as what the rest of Pens fans seem willing to give up...if I am Nonis, I wouldn't be interested. I wouldn't trade a player we need in the lineup like Kulemin for some borderline or another down the road prospect who plays defenseman.

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02-07-2013, 10:59 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
For what Toronto has, he is not easily just traded for a prospect we don't necessarily need.

Even if he's not in his 2010-2011 form, he's still a reliably effective player you can put in just about any situation. And, if you're trading him to Pittsburgh, his numbers will inevitably inflate.

With that said, maybe he's not worth Sutter straight up, but I would consider him in some kind of package deal for Sutter, which I do think is feasible.

As far as what the rest of Pens fans are willing to give up...if I am Nonis, I wouldn't be interested.
Don't be so short sighted.

D prospects can be traded for other position prospects, ala, Schenn-JVR. Aulie- Ashton

Nothing wrong with adding another D prospect.

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02-07-2013, 11:09 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
The trade value for Kuli as it sits right now is 2 reg seasons and 2 PO runs at a very good cap hit.
I don't disagree.

BUT, my point was that, 18 months ago, he could've been considered one of two big pieces for an upgrade to a high end talent. Now, he's the third piece, and not a big one at that. I'm sorry, but that's his value . . . anyone moving a high end player in a deal that includes Kulemin is going to want two better (truer) centerpieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Don't be so short sighted.

D prospects can be traded for other position prospects, ala, Schenn-JVR. Aulie- Ashton

Nothing wrong with adding another D prospect.
That's kind of what I was saying: Is Kulemin or what you could reasonably get from Pittsburgh for Kulemin worth more to other general managers if your goal is to leverage assets into a high end talent?

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02-07-2013, 11:11 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Thats the point you keep glossing over.

There IS extra value built into trading for a player that has 2 years on his contract as opposed to a rental.

Your buying for sure 2 seasons and 2 PO runs, not 1, that my friend holds value.

Actually you are wrong with the assessment that not wanting to trade him raises his value, it surely does.
I agree with you, I even said that in my post.

Even though I said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Even if he's not being shopped or the Leafs want to keep him, doesn't make his value that much higher
I also said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
does it mean they will get a better return than if he was a rental? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean that the Leafs have to or will screw another team in a trade either
I agree that him not being a rental makes his value higher, just not overpayment territory (and what Toronto fans want is overpayment, IMO anyways)

So it's not like Pens fans are saying "here, take some scraps for Kulemin". He is not a premium winger, and he's not worth a premium package, there is nothing that special about him that would make a team want to pay big to acquire him.

If the Leafs (not their fans, the actual front office) is asking for that much for Kulemin, then they can keep him. While it would be cool to add Kulemin, he isn't worth that asking price.

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02-07-2013, 11:12 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I agree with you, I even said that in my post.

Even though I said,



I also said,



So it's not like Pens fans are saying "here, take some scraps for Kulemin". He is not a premium winger, and he's not worth a premium package, there is nothing that special about him that would make a team want to pay big to acquire him.

If the Leafs (not their fans, the actual front office) is asking for that much for Kulemin, then they can keep him. While it would be cool to add Kulemin, he isn't worth that asking price.
Well, unlike Canes fans with Jordan Staal, we could just wait until Kuli is a free agent.

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02-07-2013, 11:13 AM
  #636
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Niskanen + a 2nd? not enough?

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Old
02-07-2013, 11:17 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by SteelFish87 View Post
Niskanen + a 2nd? not enough?
Would Toronto actually WANT Niskanen?

On the one hand, I don't think any Leafs fan would argue that Niskanen, at his worst, would be no worse than their #5 (better IMO, as I see him and Liles and Gunnarrson as being cut from similar cloth in terms of impact).

And, there's a case to be made that the Leafs could stand an upgrade in their top five defensemen.

On the other hand, I think they'd want something sexier than Niskanen or a 2nd in a Kuli deal.

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02-07-2013, 11:19 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
I'll have you know sir, i had us projected drafting top 3, when BB made the Kessel trade.

Had us projected top 5 pick last year, with a honest shot at top 3, also.

Been following the leafs for over 40 years, seen it all.
Except a cup!! lol sorry man couldnt resist

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Old
02-07-2013, 11:20 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by SteelFish87 View Post
Niskanen + a 2nd? not enough?
i dont think niskanen is enough of an upgrade to our defense to justify moving kulemin.

i think our overall team would be better with kulemin in it then niskanen. we have several young defensive prospects getting closer to make the jump. we have far fewer forward prospects with kulemins skill set.

im not opposed to moving kulemin but i think (hope) it would be a 1st which would likely be late and a really good prospect (not top prospect but a top 3-4 prospect)

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Old
02-07-2013, 11:37 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
For what Toronto has, he is not easily just traded for a prospect we don't necessarily need.

Even if he's not in his 2010-2011 form, he's still a reliably effective player you can put in just about any situation. And, if you're trading him to Pittsburgh, his numbers will inevitably inflate.

With that said, maybe he's not worth Sutter straight up, but I would consider him in some kind of package deal for Sutter, which I do think is more feasible.

As far as what the rest of Pens fans seem willing to give up...if I am Nonis, I wouldn't be interested. I wouldn't trade a player we need in the lineup like Kulemin for some borderline or another down the road prospect who plays defenseman.
There is no package involving Sutter. It's fairly evident that Pittsburgh wants the three spectacular to solid center package. Sutter for Kulemin and ??? would cause major void in Pittsburgh's lineup without question. IMO, you would have to add a first to that. We don't need D prospects from you (since you are supposedly loaded and don't need any of ours - so we have been told), we don't need a MacArthur because he isn't value IMO. I'm not trading Sutter for Kulemin and a second either. I have no interest in Tyler Bozak, even tough he played at my alma mater. Sutter, he is far too valuable to Pittsburgh. Sound familiar? Just like you Leaf fans feel with Kulemin. Shero basically said if Brandon wasn't the starting point to the Staal deal, Jordan wouldn't be there now. He was viewed as an important get. And why trade him? One of the better two-way centers in the game; plays great defense; is solid on the PK; wins face-offs; adds grit and can pop in maybe 20 per season. Yep, sounds alot like the guy we traded to get him.

You can't add projection of Kulemin's stats to inflate the package in return. You take the player he is now. If he is worth a first round pick and a B prospect (for example only), but you think he becomes a 30-goal scorer again with Malkin, you can't say he is worth a first and an A prospect based on projection. Poni was expected to do great things in Pittsburgh because Malkin and Crosby were there. He sucked.

The more and more I think about it, while Kulemin would solve one of Pittsburgh's problems, there isn't a good match here for a deal. We have picks and D prospects to deal and you supposedly are loaded with D prospects, so ...

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02-07-2013, 11:41 AM
  #641
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TK+your pick of Maata/Harrington/Dumoulin for Kulemin+3rd

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02-07-2013, 11:43 AM
  #642
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the only player that looks interesting for the leafs is sutter

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Old
02-07-2013, 11:44 AM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
TK+your pick of Maata/Harrington/Dumoulin for Kulemin+3rd
That is a lowball offer IMO.

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02-07-2013, 11:46 AM
  #644
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Too bad Toronto is stacked on D prospects. Maatta would've been an ideal candidate to swap for Kulemin.

Maybe they can take ET but if they wanted TK instead, I sure hope Shero has plans to get another winger elsewhere to fill that hole. Perferably, I'd bring down Dupuis to play with Sutter & Cooke, and get Sid a right winger like Setoguchi to play with him.


Last edited by SprootsMasterFlex: 02-07-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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02-07-2013, 11:46 AM
  #645
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What if the Pens offered Fleury? Could the Leafs be fooled into taking this?

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Old
02-07-2013, 11:56 AM
  #646
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kulemin is not on the trade block
but they'll listen to offers for a player who could be a good fit
that being said he fits well here as a 2nd 2-way winger and is Garbovsky's bud
and is one of our best defensive forwards
and has a modest contract

i can see him packaged with grabovsky and something to get a top center
or a special 3rd line center type like sutter
otherwise why bother

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02-07-2013, 11:59 AM
  #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I can understand why Leafs fans want so much, every fan wants to get the best deal for their player and win the trade.

However, guys like Nikolai Kulemin, I can't see him returning what Maple Leafs fans want, or even what the actual organization wants. I get that he doesn't revolve his game around goal scoring, and that he's solid away from the puck in both zones, and along the boards. So is Pascal Dupuis and I don't think he's worth a 1st and a solid prospect.

If you look at Ray Shero's history with trades, when has he ever overpaid for a roster player? I'm not going to post all of his trades, but look at who he traded for Hossa and Dupuis, or Neal and Niskanen, Shero will not overpay for Nikolai Kulemin.

Realistically, Kulemin should either bring in a 1st round pick straight up, or a prospect like Scott Harrington and a 2nd. He's really not THAT special of a player that he's worth so much to trade for, at least I don't think he is, and if the Leafs want more than a 1st round pick, please keep him, I'm sure they have no problem doing so, and Shero would have no problem looking elsewhere for a winger.
/thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Well, unlike Canes fans with Jordan Staal, we could just wait until Kuli is a free agent.
Assuming he ever gets to market. I can't see that happening considering how much the organization loves him. He loves Toronto, his wife loves Toronto (currently enrolled @ UofT) both his kids were born in Toronto.

He's not a superstar, but he fits well and is appreciated in Toronto. They'll keep him as long as it makes sense. As long as he can agree to very reasonable contracts as he's done thus far, I can't imagine it being an issue.

Even Burke loves Kuli and Burke hates Russians - last year amidst his tough season he ended up breaking a finger.. Burke spoke of how he (thought) he was the last to leave later in the evening, only to pass the weight room and see Kulemin, by himself, with weights thrown over his shoulder because he couldn't grip them. Burke asked him what hes doing and he responded basically saying if you cant score, work harder. The Leafs need more guys like Kulemin.

If he was North American and spoke better English, I think he'd wear a letter. Definitely a better leader then Phagoof (let's not get into that though)

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02-07-2013, 12:01 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by NastyNick View Post
What if the Pens offered Fleury? Could the Leafs be fooled into taking this?
What do you mean "fooled into?" This Fleury backlash has gotten way too extreme.

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02-07-2013, 12:04 PM
  #649
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What if the Pens offered Fleury? Could the Leafs be fooled into taking this?
where do I sign

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02-07-2013, 12:08 PM
  #650
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/thread.

Assuming he ever gets to market. I can't see that happening considering how much the organization loves him. He loves Toronto, his wife loves Toronto (currently enrolled @ UofT) both his kids were born in Toronto.

He's not a superstar, but he fits well and is appreciated in Toronto. They'll keep him as long as it makes sense. As long as he can agree to very reasonable contracts as he's done thus far, I can't imagine it being an issue.

Even Burke loves Kuli and Burke hates Russians - last year amidst his tough season he ended up breaking a finger.. Burke spoke of how he (thought) he was the last to leave later in the evening, only to pass the weight room and see Kulemin, by himself, with weights thrown over his shoulder because he couldn't grip them. Burke asked him what hes doing and he responded basically saying if you cant score, work harder. The Leafs need more guys like Kulemin.

If he was North American and spoke better English, I think he'd wear a letter. Definitely a better leader then Phagoof (let's not get into that though)
I like the statement on Kulemin. He is a very quiet guy that works his tail off.

I always said about him, if he got a chip on his shoulder; he could really do some special things. Even when he scored 30 he was really passive. He can create chances all on his own, but sometimes it seems that he hasn't developed a confidence to stand out. With the right coach and linemates, the confidence can get instilled this sponge and I have no doubt that he could reach his potential.

That is another reason why it would be hard to see him go for market value (whatever that would be

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