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Forgotten Stars

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02-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #1
Loto68
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Forgotten Stars

The Rangers had two of the original stars of the NHL in Frank Boucher and Bill Cook who unfortunately I doubt most Rangers fans have ever heard of because MSG acts like nothing ever occurred before the 67 Expansion. Cook was ranked the 44th greatest player of all time by THN in 1998, I was just wondering if I could get some perspective on the place those 2 hold in hockey history and were they rank amongst the all time greats.

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02-05-2013, 01:58 PM
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eddytheeagle20
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bill cook was a great player in his era probally a second teir star behind morenz and jolait in montreal and maybe his brother bun cook

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02-05-2013, 02:30 PM
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gifted88
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I never hear much of Andy Bathgate as well.

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02-05-2013, 03:41 PM
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Johnny Engine
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The Rangers for some reason are just awful at keeping their history alive. If someone would pay me to go through internet discussions and correct people who post lists of the top Rangers ever that don't include anyone before Leetch, I could make 8 hour days of that.

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02-05-2013, 04:06 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
bill cook was a great player in his era probally a second teir star behind morenz and jolait in montreal and maybe his brother bun cook
Bill was much better than Bun.

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02-05-2013, 04:22 PM
  #6
Nalens Oga
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If we're gonna talk about the Rangers then here's a list of notable Rangers players to retire before '91 as an NYR in their last season though some of them might only have played for NYR for a bit at the end and not in the main portion of their career. The number of games played and points (or wins for goalies) beside the name. The ones in bold played for NYR for pretty much their entire career:

Bentley, Max 645 544
Boucher, Frank 557 423
Colville, Neil D/Fwd 464 265
Cook, Bill 474 367

Coulter, Arthur D 421 112
Dionne, Marcel 1348 1771
Egan, Pat D 554 230
Esposito, Phil 1282 1590
Geoffrion, Bernard 883 822
Gilbert, Rod 1065 1021
Goldsworthy, Bill 771 541
Goyette, Phil 941 674
Greschner, Ron D 982 610
Hedberg, Anders 462 398
Heller, Ott D 647 231
Hextall, Bryan Sr 449 362

Hodge, Ken 880 800
Kerr, Dave G 427 203
Laprade, Edgar 500 280
Larouche, Pierre 812 822
McDonald, Wilfred "Bucko" D 446 123
Nedomansky, Vaclav 421 278
O'Connor, Buddy 509 397
Patrick, Lynn 455 335
Rayner, Chuck G 424 138

Reise, Leo D 494 109
Rousseau, Bobby 942 703
Sawchuk, Terry G 971 447
Smith, Dallas D 890 307
Stanowski, Wally D 428 111
Tkaczuk, Walt 945 678
Vickers, Steve 698 586
Watson, Phil 590 409


This is the same as the one above but these guys did not retire with the Rangers. They did all play with the Rangers at some point usually for more than a few seasons.
Bathgate, Andy 1069 973
Beck, Barry D 615 355
Cook, Bun 473 302
Dillon, Cecil 453 298
Duguay, Ron 864 620
Giacomin, Eddie G 609 289
Hadfield, Vic 1002 712
Henry, Camille 727 528
Howell, Harry D 1411 418
Johnson, Ivan "Ching" D 436 86
Neilson, Jim D 1023 368
Nevin, Bob 1128 726
Prentice, Dean 1378 860
Ratelle, Jean 1281 1267
Ruotsalainen, Reijo D 446 344
Seiling, Rod D 979 331
Smith, Clint 483 236
Thompson, Paul 581 332
Warwick, Grant 395 289
Park, Brad 1013 896
Vadnais, Carol D 1087 587
Rogers, Mike 484 519
Marshall, Don 1176 589
Pratt, Babe D 517 292
Stanley, Allan D 1244 433
Worsley, Gump G 861 335

Not all the names above were stars but most were at some point and were fairly solid NHLers.

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02-05-2013, 04:57 PM
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eddytheeagle20
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Bill was much better than Bun.
the bread line were all stars in the mid twenteis but are pretty much forgotten about by the modern media and not looked at in the same way as howie morenz and aruel jolait in montreal and eddie shore in bosten

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02-05-2013, 05:05 PM
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BenchBrawl
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Both Frank Boucher and Bill Cook are top 40-50 of all-time players.

They might be forgotten by the average Ranger fans , but they aren't forgotten by us.

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02-05-2013, 05:06 PM
  #9
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
the bread line were all stars in the mid twenteis but are pretty much forgotten about by the modern media and not looked at in the same way as howie morenz and aruel jolait in montreal and eddie shore in bosten
The fact that for a period of 11 years (during which cook was active), Morenz and shore combined for 7 harts and cook had none, suggests that there is nothing revisionist about that.

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02-05-2013, 05:38 PM
  #10
Killion
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Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
If we're gonna talk about the Rangers then here's a list of notable Rangers...

Bentley, Max 645 544
[B]Boucher, Frank 557 423....
etc
etcet
etcetera...
Stanley, Allan D 1244 433
Worsley, Gump G 861 335

Not all the names above were stars but most were at some point and were fairly solid NHLers.
Ya, good list there. New York was last Port of Call for a lot of Greats or guys who may have moved on to one or two other teams elsewhere thereafter though some were basically done, unfortunately eclipsing a lot of the Rangers "Greats" going back decades. Overshadowed by the likes of Jagr, Gretzky, Messier & others. In New York though its not "what you did yesterday" that counts as much for "what are you doing for me today, as in RIGHT NOW?!". I like that attitude.

When I "think Rangers", guys in the red white & blue, I think Hadfield, Howell, Gump Worsley, Tkaczuk, Goyette, Ingarfield, Kurtenbach, Bathgate, Prentice, Vadnais & Giacomin, Gilbert etc; Brad Park to me always a Ranger. Pre-60's and before my time, Dave Kerr, Frank Boucher (who many rank as the Greatest Ranger of All Time), Ott Heller, Hextall Sr., Ching Johnson, Edgar Laprade, Alex Shibicky and others, and my favourite, Conn Smythe being canned, driven out of the Big Apple & epi-centre of the good old U.SofA. Good for them. Kicked that trumped up Martinettes ass clean on back to Toronto.

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02-05-2013, 05:43 PM
  #11
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by gifted88 View Post
I never hear much of Andy Bathgate as well.
They retired Adam Graves' #9 but forgot that Andy Bathgate - a player who was by far superior to Graves that it isn't even close - also wore #9. Can't remember what happened, did they do Bathgate as well? I mean, talk about overrating the 1994 Cup winning team. Retire Mess, Leetch and Richter if you want, but Graves? Over an all-time great?

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02-05-2013, 06:06 PM
  #12
Killion
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
They retired Adam Graves' #9 but forgot that Andy... Can't remember... did they do Bathgate as well?
Yes, the Rangers 19 nights after retiring Graves #9 in 2009 retired Bathgates #9 along with Harry Howells' #3. Much to Adam Graves credit at that ceremony, he said "Andy Bathgate was the Greatest player to ever don the #9 for the New York Rangers" (or words that affect). And he was.

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02-05-2013, 11:39 PM
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mbhhofr
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One of my greatest experiences took place after a Sportsmen's Night in Winnipeg back in 1966. I worked that night selling drink tickets. Frank Boucher, who at that time was the Commissioner of the Saskatchewan Jr. Hockey League, Norm Van Brocklin, who was coaching the Minnesota Vikings and Bud Grant, who was coaching the Winnipeg Blue Bombers, were guest speakers. I found myself sitting at a table with all three of them after the evening events. Three HOFers in their sports. The four of us sitting there just talking about everything and they even asked me my opinion about things. I thought that I died and went to heaven.

Vince Leah, who was a sportswriter for the Winnipeg Tribune, was very influential early in Andy Bathgate's hockey career. Vince gave me my start in my officiating career. When Bathgate was inducted into the HOF he had Vince introduce him.

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02-06-2013, 04:55 PM
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Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes, the Rangers 19 nights after retiring Graves #9 in 2009 retired Bathgates #9 along with Harry Howells' #3. Much to Adam Graves credit at that ceremony, he said "Andy Bathgate was the Greatest player to ever don the #9 for the New York Rangers" (or words that affect). And he was.
I remember thinking that if Bathgate ever got asked I would almost of given them a thanks but no thanks gesture. It reminds me of when you invite people to your birthday party and then when you realize a guest that should have been invited brought to your attention and then you say "oh yeah, well, you can come too." Terrible mishap by the Rangers organization.

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02-06-2013, 06:32 PM
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Killion
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I remember thinking that if Bathgate ever got asked I would almost of given them a thanks but no thanks gesture....
Ya I hear ya on that one. He's such a Classy Guy though that Im sure the very thought wouldnt even cross his mind... he actually got into some trouble and received a lot of grief from the league (fined & berated) for writing an article back in 58 or 59 bemoaning the "bloodsport nature of professional hockey". Alarmist stuff, with "only a matter of time before so & so kills someone out there" etcetera. The league instituted a new rule thats still in place to this day as a result, barring players from writing or even being quoted with criticisms of that or any other kind that might cast aspersions on how the NHL administrates, runs, markets & or promotes the game.

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02-06-2013, 08:48 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Both Frank Boucher and Bill Cook are top 40-50 of all-time players.

They might be forgotten by the average Ranger fans , but they aren't forgotten by us.
Bill Cook was 40th in the last top 70 project and Frank boucher was 48th.

It will be very interesting to see how they fare in the top RW and top C project we are about to explore in the future.

Boucher at 48 over Dionne at 50 is puzzling to me.

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02-06-2013, 09:01 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
One of my greatest experiences took place after a Sportsmen's Night in Winnipeg back in 1966. I worked that night selling drink tickets. Frank Boucher, who at that time was the Commissioner of the Saskatchewan Jr. Hockey League, Norm Van Brocklin, who was coaching the Minnesota Vikings and Bud Grant, who was coaching the Winnipeg Blue Bombers, were guest speakers. I found myself sitting at a table with all three of them after the evening events. Three HOFers in their sports. The four of us sitting there just talking about everything and they even asked me my opinion about things. I thought that I died and went to heaven.

Vince Leah, who was a sportswriter for the Winnipeg Tribune, was very influential early in Andy Bathgate's hockey career. Vince gave me my start in my officiating career. When Bathgate was inducted into the HOF he had Vince introduce him.
You seem to have a great history of the sport of hockey, it would be nice if you could share some stories or thoughts on certain players more often.

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02-06-2013, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gifted88 View Post
I never hear much of Andy Bathgate as well.
Bathgate was the best RW of his era after Howe and Richard. He was able to squeeze them off of the AS teams a few times.

And unlike the other two, he was much more of a skill/finesse type. Bure/Kariya/etc. before they were around.

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02-06-2013, 09:58 PM
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Killion
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Bathgate was the best RW of his era after Howe and Richard. He was able to squeeze them off of the AS teams a few times.... And unlike the other two, he was much more of a skill/finesse type. Bure/Kariya/etc. before they were around.
He was, but he was also tough as nails and was a serious pugilist when required, having grown up in a tough part of Winnipeg. He hurt both knees' badly in Junior with the Guelph Biltmores, had a steel plate inserted into one of them, playing throughout his career with heavy braces, which just begs the question "what if"?

As it was, a smooth & graceful skater, imaginative playmaker, one of the first to deploy the slapshot along with Geoffrion, Mikita & Hull (it was a Bathgate shot that cut Plante open in 59 and the latters return wearing a mask). He had been the Captain in New York, and I remember him in Toronto in 64, contributing to the Leafs Stanley Cup that year, unhappy as a kid when Id learned he'd been traded to Detroit for Marcel Pronovost.... wound up playing for the Canucks in the WHL for a couple of years (68-70), Pittsburgh Penguins briefly, the Vancouver Blazers (Coached them as well) of the WHA, a season or two in Switzerland.

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02-06-2013, 10:34 PM
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mbhhofr
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He was, but he was also tough as nails and was a serious pugilist when required, having grown up in a tough part of Winnipeg.
West Kildonan, a north end suburb, where Bathgate grew up and where I lived from the age of sixteen to twenty-six, really wasn't considered a tough part of the metro Winnipeg area.

His father died when he was thirteen. He lived next door to Vince Leah, who then took Andy under his wing and encouraged him to play many different sports.

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02-06-2013, 10:50 PM
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Killion
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
West Kildonan, a north end suburb, where Bathgate grew up and where I lived from the age of sixteen to twenty-six, really wasn't considered a tough part of the metro Winnipeg area...
Oh? Perhaps the biographers at the HHOF should revise their passages on the "young Andy Bathgate" then, for they suggest he grew up playing hardscrabble hockey in Winnipeg, no real luxury of choice in deciding between the Cross or the Switchblade. Perhaps the writer decided to embellish Bathgates resume' somewhat, but still, he wasnt a player to trifle with, more than capable of taking on just about anyone in the league at that time and more than holding his own, unlike say the players above who another poster compared him to.

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02-06-2013, 11:41 PM
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Graves was great at was he was doing and in 1994 must have been DA BOMB, retire his unspeakable why not. Great move by him pushing for Bathgate in his speech, i met him he is a great guy.

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02-07-2013, 08:42 AM
  #23
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Oh? Perhaps the biographers at the HHOF should revise their passages on the "young Andy Bathgate" then, for they suggest he grew up playing hardscrabble hockey in Winnipeg, no real luxury of choice in deciding between the Cross or the Switchblade. Perhaps the writer decided to embellish Bathgates resume' somewhat, but still, he wasnt a player to trifle with, more than capable of taking on just about anyone in the league at that time and more than holding his own, unlike say the players above who another poster compared him to.
Wait a second here.

Are you even suggesting that the HHOF biographers are embellishing an old time player. That never happens.

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02-07-2013, 10:32 AM
  #24
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Boucher at 48 over Dionne at 50 is puzzling to me.
Frank Boucher was the best playoff performer of his era.Boucher is more or less Yzerman.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Frank Boucher has had a better career than Marcel Dionne.

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02-07-2013, 12:08 PM
  #25
Killion
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Wait a second here.... Are you even suggesting that the HHOF biographers are embellishing an old time player. That never happens.
He could have made it right with the book. But he hasnt. He is a revisionist of history. He has lied.
Monica Lewinsky

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