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Old
02-07-2013, 10:55 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Porn* View Post
The Toronto Blue Jays select,

the greatest defensive SS ever to play the game:

Omar Vizquel

Vizquel is considered one of baseball's all-time best fielding shortstops, winning nine consecutive Gold Gloves (1993–2001) and two more in 2005 and 2006. He tied Cal Ripken, Jr.'s American League record, since surpassed, for most consecutive games at shortstop without an error (95, between September 26, 1999 and July 21, 2000).[1] Currently, his .985 career fielding percentage is the highest of all-time for a shortstop in Major League history. On May 25, 2008, Vizquel became the all-time leader in games played at shortstop, passing BLANK. Vizquel is the all-time leader in double plays made while playing shortstop. He has the most hits recorded by any player from Venezuela (2,877; 40th all-time), surpassing BLANK record of 2,677 on June 25, 2009. On May 24, 2010, Vizquel became the shortstop with the third most hits all time, behind second place Derek Jeter and Honus Wagner. Vizquel is the sacrifice hit leader of the live-ball era.
Might want to remove the undrfated player from your write up.


Last edited by Fish on The Sand: 02-07-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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02-07-2013, 10:59 AM
  #402
JaysCyYoung
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Ehhh I think Vizquel is a clear second to Ozzie in defensive ability, but to each his own.

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02-07-2013, 12:08 PM
  #403
MurrayBannerman
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Ehhh I think Vizquel is a clear second to Ozzie in defensive ability, but to each his own.
You'd be right. This is an incredible reach, IMO.

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02-07-2013, 12:12 PM
  #404
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sorry for the delay guys, was on a 12hr flight lol.

The Toronto Blue Jays are pleased to select their #2 ace.

Mike Mussina

Seven-time Gold Glove award winner.
Placed in the top five of voting for the Cy Young Award six times.
1994 Baseball America First-Team American League All-Star starting pitcher.
1999 Baseball America Second-Team American League All-Star starting pitcher.
Led AL in Won-Loss percentage (.783) in 1992
Led AL in Wins (19), Walks/9IP (2.03) and Shutouts (4) in 1995
Led AL in Games Started (36) in 1996
Led AL in Innings (237 ⅔) in 2000
Reached both the 2001 and 2003 World Series with the New York Yankees
Won 15 games in a season 11 times.
One 20 win season (2008), two 19 win seasons, three 18 win seasons, and two 17 win seasons.
I've been sitting on Moose for two rounds, but both times saw a player fall that I felt I just couldn't pass on. Really hoped he'd slide to me again.

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02-07-2013, 12:24 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
You'd be right. This is an incredible reach, IMO.
He's nearly a mirror image of Ozzie Smith career wise. I would grade out Smith slightly higher defensively and Vizquel slightly higher offensively.

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02-07-2013, 12:46 PM
  #406
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I fail to see how Viquel is a reach... SS is probably one of the most important positions defensively. I fail to see the reach with this pick. Given his career, he's easily a top 3 at that position and his offense wasn't horrible.

I'm quite content with the current make up of my roster; both offensively and defensively capable of stealing/winning games or blowing them out.


Lf:
CF: Griffey Jr.
RF: Aaron
3rd: Santo
SS: Vizquel
2nd: Sandberg
1st:
C:
SP: Ryan
SP: Mussina

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02-07-2013, 01:15 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Pwnasaurus View Post
He's nearly a mirror image of Ozzie Smith career wise. I would grade out Smith slightly higher defensively and Vizquel slightly higher offensively.
I wouldn't even consider this being remotely close to being true, all due respect. Smith almost doubled his career wins above replacement value when compared to Vizquel, even with the latter's tremendous longevity.

73 WAR to 40.5 WAR. That's not a mirror image by any respect.

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02-07-2013, 01:35 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
I wouldn't even consider this being remotely close to being true, all due respect. Smith almost doubled his career wins above replacement value when compared to Vizquel, even with the latter's tremendous longevity.

73 WAR to 40.5 WAR. That's not a mirror image by any respect.
I'm of the opinion that using WAR for players that primarily derive their value strictly from defensive play is a bit tricky in nature. Their career slash lines are nearly identical.

I recognize that Ozzie's offensive war is about 15 points or so higher, for the types of players that they are, I don't think that enhances his value drastically over Vizquel.

Having seen 90% of Ozzie's career and all of Vizquel's, I'm of the opinion that their separation is pretty minimal.

I'm a Cards fan, I take the Ozzie obviously but I suppose my point was that if you believe Ozzie taken a round earlier is slotted fine, Vizquel then is by no means a tremendous reach.

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02-07-2013, 01:39 PM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnasaurus View Post
I'm of the opinion that using WAR for players that primarily derive their value strictly from defensive play is a bit tricky in nature. Their career slash lines are nearly identical.

I recognize that Ozzie's offensive war is about 15 points or so higher, for the types of players that they are, I don't think that enhances his value drastically over Vizquel.

Having seen 90% of Ozzie's career and all of Vizquel's, I'm of the opinion that their separation is pretty minimal.

I'm a Cards fan, I take the Ozzie obviously but I suppose my point was that if you believe Ozzie taken a round earlier is slotted fine, Vizquel then is by no means a tremendous reach.
I don't really agree with that either.

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02-07-2013, 01:41 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnasaurus View Post
I'm of the opinion that using WAR for players that primarily derive their value strictly from defensive play is a bit tricky in nature. Their career slash lines are nearly identical.

I recognize that Ozzie's offensive war is about 15 points or so higher, for the types of players that they are, I don't think that enhances his value drastically over Vizquel.

Having seen 90% of Ozzie's career and all of Vizquel's, I'm of the opinion that their separation is pretty minimal.
Given the tremendous separation in defensive ability I think that this is the case. There's a reason why Ozzie was a first ballot Hall of Famer and Vizquel is by no means a guaranteed selection. Even if their career slash lines are similar, that's more a product of Vizquel playing in a far more offensive era, as the difference in offensive WAR illustrates. There were simply far fewer offensive options at the position in the 1980s than in the 1990s, when you started seeing A-Rod, Nomar, Jeter, and Tejada producing tremendous totals.

Quote:
I'm a Cards fan, I take the Ozzie obviously but I suppose my point was that if you believe Ozzie taken a round earlier is slotted fine, Vizquel then is by no means a tremendous reach.
Due to positional scarcity I don't actually consider Vizquel to be a reach at this point in the draft. But he isn't a comparable player to Smith in terms of their overall career accomplishments IMO. There simply is far too great of a gap on the offensive and defensive ends for that claim to have merit I think. If there was a closer value in terms of their respective wins above replacement totals I would be open to that argument, but it's almost double for Ozzie. That's too large of a gap to make up or explain away.

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02-07-2013, 01:51 PM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Given the tremendous separation in defensive ability I think that this is the case. There's a reason why Ozzie was a first ballot Hall of Famer and Vizquel is by no means a guaranteed selection. Even if their career slash lines are similar, that's more a product of Vizquel playing in a far more offensive era, as the difference in offensive WAR illustrates. There were simply far fewer offensive options at the position in the 1980s than in the 1990s, when you started seeing A-Rod, Nomar, Jeter, and Tejada producing tremendous totals.
I don't think its fair to penalize Vizquel for his offensive production by basing it relative to his peers at his position. Vizquel faced much stronger competition at the position than Smith did, but that does not make Smith's offensive contributions greater. This is a perfect example of why positional value offensively should not be factored into WAR.

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02-07-2013, 01:59 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
I don't think its fair to penalize Vizquel for his offensive production by basing it relative to his peers at his position. Vizquel faced much stronger competition at the position than Smith did, but that does not make Smith's offensive contributions greater. This is a perfect example of why positional value offensively should not be factored into WAR.
Then use adjusted OPS in order to take into account league offence and park factors. Smith posted a five point advantage in OPS+ over Vizquel during the course of their careers, a fairly reasonable advantage. He also posted four seasons in which he posted to a 100 OPS+ or greater during a season compared to just two for Vizquel.

During Vizquel's best offensive seasons between 1996 and 2004 he posted an OPS+ of 93. During Smith's best offensive seasons between 1984 and 1992 he posted an OPS+ of 99. So there is still significant evidence, even taking into account adjusted factors that take into consideration the respective offensive totals of each player's era, for Smith to be considered the better offensive player by a fair margin. And that's taking into account the fact that Vizquel had stronger offensive competition at the position than Ozzie did when he played.

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02-07-2013, 02:00 PM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
There's a reason why Ozzie was a first ballot Hall of Famer and Vizquel is by no means a guaranteed selection.
Your arguments are persuasive, well made and have me digging more into their careers rather than how I remember the eye test being when I watched their careers. I thought Vizquel was much better defensively (Ozzie caliber) than his numbers seem to be baring out.

However, as for the above I don't think either of them belong in the HOF.

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02-07-2013, 02:03 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Pwnasaurus View Post
Your arguments are persuasive, well made and have me digging more into their careers rather than how I remember the eye test being when I watched their careers. I thought Vizquel was much better defensively than his numbers are baring out.

However, as for the above I don't think either of them belong in the HOF.
Your kind words are very much appreciated, Pwnasaurus, especially from a poster with as much interest and appreciation for the history of baseball as yourself. Personally, I've gone back and forth regarding whether I consider Smith to be a worthy Hall of Famer. His JAWS score is very kind to him and ranks him as the seventh best shortstop of all-time, even against such illustrious competition as Ernie Banks and several players whom I will not name (see more here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml ).

I think that Bill James once suggested too that Ozzie would be the only player in his lifetime whose defensive metrics would make him worthy of enshrinement regardless of his hitting ability. That holds significant weight with me given the esteem in which I hold James' views on the game. The offensive metrics throughout the years have also been more kind to Smith than originally thought.

He's a tough case to evaluate, but personally I would give him a pass due to his defensive prowess and the fact that he sprinkled in a few above-average years with the bat in addition to his trump card defensive skills. He also should gain additional career value for the fact that he remained at the position throughout his career rather than some of the hybrids that we've seen taken in this draft to date (Yount and Banks in particular).

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02-07-2013, 02:04 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Then use adjusted OPS in order to take into account league offence and park factors. Smith posted a five point advantage in OPS+ over Vizquel during the course of their careers, a fairly reasonable advantage. He also posted four seasons in which he posted to a 100 OPS+ or greater during a season compared to just two for Vizquel.

During Vizquel's best offensive seasons between 1996 and 2004 he posted an OPS+ of 93. During Smith's best offensive seasons between 1984 and 1992 he posted an OPS+ of 99. So there is still significant evidence, even taking into account adjusted factors that take into consideration the respective offensive totals of each player's era, for Smith to be considered the better offensive player by a fair margin. And that's taking into account the fact that Vizquel had stronger offensive competition at the position than Ozzie did when he played.
The difference between 99+ and 93+ is fairly small, but you are right, Ozzie does have an advantage. My point was not for Vizquel to be considered a greater pick, but he is certainly in the same realm as Smith.

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02-07-2013, 03:43 PM
  #416
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Might want to remove the undrfated player from your write up.
You might want to do the same.

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02-07-2013, 03:45 PM
  #417
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You might want to do the same.
Didn't realize the name was in there twice.

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02-07-2013, 06:30 PM
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
The difference between 99+ and 93+ is fairly small, but you are right, Ozzie does have an advantage. My point was not for Vizquel to be considered a greater pick, but he is certainly in the same realm as Smith.
precisely. i was merely trying to get an excellent defensive player for my SS as the rest of my team is fairly strong offensively. need some balance which I believe i've found thus far

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02-07-2013, 06:52 PM
  #419
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anyone wanna do an alltime nba draft? might be fun :p

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02-07-2013, 07:05 PM
  #420
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I'd be down for that if it moved along faster than the glacier-like pace of the current draft we're conducting.

Come on people! Pick up the pace!

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02-07-2013, 07:22 PM
  #421
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I can change the rounds timer if enough people are down with it.

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02-07-2013, 07:42 PM
  #422
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Sorry guys, another busy day...

The Cincinnati Reds are pleased to select:

Cap Anson -- 1st Baseman

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02-07-2013, 07:43 PM
  #423
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I can change the rounds timer if enough people are down with it.
Umm. Yes please. At this point 2-3 hours is fine. Just stop the clock between like 10 pm and 8 am.

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02-07-2013, 07:48 PM
  #424
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Sorry guys, another busy day...

The Cincinnati Reds are pleased to select:

Cap Anson -- 1st Baseman
The greatest part of this selection is his inclusion on Mr. Burns' all-star baseball team.


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02-07-2013, 08:37 PM
  #425
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The Chicago Cubs Select SS Luke Appling



Career Statistics
.310/.399/.398/.798
2749 Hits
440 2B
102 3B
42 HR
1116 RBI
1319 Runs
179 SB
1302 BB
7 All Star Games
69.9 bWAR

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