in those 4 years has hainsey EVER been given a decent chance at cracking the habs lineup? no. even though he outplayed mark streit in the preseason..the coaching brass opted to go with streit because they had contractually obliged to play streit in a certain amount of games.
did you watch him play in columbus? doubt it. what am i using to conclude that he's a better defensive player than you suggest? evidence from his play in columbus last season.
of course his +/- means squat, because it negates the point that you're making. if his +/- was -30 you'd use it as a crucial determinant to say that he's bad defensively.
i for one live in the west, and have seen atleast half a dozen ron hainsey games. he played damn well for the jackets this prior season. him having the best +/- on the team while averaging around 18 minutes of ice team is good enough statistical evidence to prove my point. considering you didn't watch him this year, i guess that's what you'll have to go by.
just because the habs management let hainsey go, doesn't mean he 'suck'.
I also saw Hainsey play with the Jackets (about seven games or so) and I'd back this up. Overall, I was quite impressed with his play... In two games in particular, he really stood out in a positive way with solid outlet passes, creative play on the powerplay (second unit) and a good sense of when to pinch and when to stay back.
His defensive game with the Jackets, in the games I saw, was never an issue at all. I'm sure Columbus is pleased with the pick up - he served them well.
Big guy, very physical, good for 30-40 points with maybe 10 goals...Can QB the PP if needed...But has those dreaded brain cramps. He was once an allstar so he's got the potential to play well, and he's only 29.
ASSETS: Presents a tremendous physical package with a very heavy shot
So basically another Sheldon Souray... Habs already have one, so no thanks...
Huh? What are you smoking?
Poti is a finesse defenseman...or rather offenseman with tremendous skating and offensive upside but has not been able to put it all together.
At his first training camp in Edmonton, fresh from his years at NCAA (Boston) , Edmonton brass including Sather was raving about this guy even going a far as saying that he had the highest threshold of panic that he's ever seen...and if you consider that Sather has coached guys like Gretz, Coffey, Anderson, Lowe, Messier, Kurri, etc, this was HIGH praise indeed!
However, he was never able to take care of his own end even though he showed flashes of offensive brilliance early on in his career while playing along side Roman Hamrlik and Boris Mironov and even Janne Niinima to form one of most promising young defensive core in NHL. Edmonton was forced to trade away Hamrlik, then Mironov then Niinima due to money and Poti started feeling the fans' wrath which made him regress...until Sather thought that a new environment would get him back on track...a hunch which proved to be incorrect so far.
His fluid skating is due to the fact that he started out in figure skating to get away to the sterile environment of the ice rink because he's allergic to just about everything! And that's not an exaggeration. About the only thing that he can eat is unfavoured, boiled chicken and rice because he would have fatal allergic reaction to even the smallest amounts of pretty much anything!
At his peak, if all the stars line up together just perfectly so, Tom Poti has the potential to be another Brian Leetch but he's proven that he is FAR from being what he promises to be...especially in his defensive play.
If there is a guy who has disappointed with all the potential that he showed, it's Tom Poti...and why in the world would Bob get him when he basically gave away almost an identical player in Hollywood Ron Hainsey just months ago????
Lock this crap up bob mackenzie is on holidays i was watching tsn the other day and he said he was going on them so he was not on tsn this morning claiming this crap. Delete this thread because i never want to see Poti's name attached to the habs in anyway!!!
Some idiot is just making up rumors and he knows the habs fans will jump on them since we havent signed anyone and are getting antsy. Ridiculous!!!
Edit: you really think gainey would give this guy that kind of money that would make all the other overpaying defenseman deals look genius.
P.S i like how you ignored the point that Hainsey lost his job to a player that was contractually obliged to play a certain number of games. The habs didn't waive hainsey on purpose in hopes of losing him for nothing. BG actually before the 05' training camp sent a bunch GM's a notice on if they wanted to acquire hainsey, because BG didn't want to lose him for nothing as he believed the guy has some obvious value. Once again, with the minutes and responsibility hainsey has been getting now...it's obvious that the guy had some value.
I ignored it because it is inacurate. We weren't obligated to do anything. All this meant was if Streit didn't get his 30 games we would have had to pay an additional 150k as part of the IIHF agreement. Big deal. Do you really think Streit made it over Hainsey because of that? Gainey would have to be quite mad to let a guy he thinks will become a solid NHLer go over 150k don't you think? I followed the Hainsey/Streit race during training camp for the last 7th spot and both would rush the puck fairly well while being a huge liability in their own end. But Hainsey had 4 years to round out his game with which he did nothing, he didn't improve one iota, he actually regressed in those years. Streit had the adaptation factor to cope with, and my guess is Gainey thought he could get better once comfortable with the NHL style, while Hainsey couldn't.
Originally Posted by hunjeebakala
Uh, What does Dagenais have to do with anything? His line with Ribs in 03/04 was a very good line for us. They created many scoring opportunities and often played against lines that weren't scoring threats. Besides +/- stats for forwards and defenseman are different.
My point was that Dagenais has always been mediocre defensively, by far the worse on the team, yet he still managed to get out of his season with a +15.
Originally Posted by hunjeebakala
When you use the +/- stat, you use many other factors to assess it correctly.
Well that was my point I think and was also why I brought up the Dagenais reference.
Originally Posted by hunjeebakala
Hainsey is a d-man and pulled that +/- while playing against the top players of opposition teams. Dagenais did not
I mentioned how he's been getting top 4 d-man type minutes (highest +/- ever for a columbus player EVER), and played against the better players of the opposition)...but you seem so adamant to stick to your beliefs that's based on the AHL from two years ago and little 10 game NHL stints where he got 5 minutes a game and no opportunity to show an ounce of worth. good job bud
That would be different, but how do you know he was matched against the top opposition in Columbus? Was he really in a shut down role against the other team's top lines? And who was he paired with? Was he really paired with Foote on the top pairing? Because lots of minutes doesn't necessarily mean it's the case, my guess is Hainsey got the bulk of his minutes on the PP. But if that was not the case, then yes indeed this stat would have a bit more meaning than originally thought.
My belief comes from the fact I've never ever seen a player who has not progressed his game one bit in 4 years go from horrible defensively to good, even only good enough, especially with the kind of attitude and work ethic Hainsey had, which it appears is the portrait you seem to want to draw about him.
And yes, I have seen Hainsey play last year, albeit only once, and there was nothing in that game to suggest he had improved by leaps and bounds as far as defensive awareness goes, although I will admit he looked better in this game than he did in most in Mtl.
And BTW, I don't agree that Hainsey never got an opportunity with the Canadiens. He got 32 NHL games in Montreal and was bellow average to atrocious defensively in all of them. His work ethic was piss poor and he looked like he was about to collapse of extreme fatigue every time he had a defensive assignment in his own zone, so yes, while not impossible that a player finds a new momentum with a change of scenery, allow me to be sceptical until I see it with my own eyes in such an extreme case as Hainsey's.