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Flyers sign Timonen to a one-year extension, reported at $6m and a NMC (upd: post #1)

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Old
02-07-2013, 09:12 AM
  #126
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This Perry talk reminds me of the Weber talk....and Suter.....and Parise. This "just throw money at him!" thing really hasnt worked recently.

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02-07-2013, 09:31 AM
  #127
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Why do posters act like they know where Perry wants and does not want to sign? No one knows but him and likely those around him.

Why wouldnt he want to come here? Why would he? Where DOES he want to go?

Perry would be an excellent piece to this team, if he makes it to free agency, I would expect Holmgren to make a push. If it takes using an Amnesty to do it without thinking twice. Ideally, Briere would accept a trade elsewhere and the Flyers could get at the least, something for him.

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02-07-2013, 09:43 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by CoatesysFlask View Post
I agree that it's unlikely Perry signs here either way but you made it sound like the idea of buying out Briere to sign perry wouldnt work because we could lost Briere and not even get Perry, which just isnt true.

Also, why would you have to replace Briere with a smaller amount of money? Wouldnt Perry be replacing Briere?
Because there are a lot of holes in this roster. Swapping Perry for Briere is great, but there will still be like 6-8 spots left on the roster with about $2 mil per guy if my calculations are correct. Maybe a guy like McGinn sticks around and that makes it easier, same thing with Laughton and a Rinaldo/Sestito type guy. But the team would still need another Defenseman, a backup goalie, and some people to fill in the rest of the holes.

I guess the overall point of my post is that if Briere is getting bought out, the $6.5 million shouldn't be spent on one player (unless that one player is a #1 defender). It is far from a guarantee that Perry signs here, and it is far from a guarantee that he takes the $6.5 mil that Briere is getting, which would potentially leave even less money to fill out the roster next year and to pay future RFAs (Giroux, Couturier, and Schenn are all due after next season if I am not mistake). Granted, the new CBA may actually mean Perry doesn't get much of a raise because they can't spread it out over a period of time, but I am willing to bet that it won't have that impact.

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02-07-2013, 09:48 AM
  #129
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I don't understand the urgency to get this deal done so early. If they aren't in playoff contention that's an extremely valuable trade chip they have at the deadline to possibly acquire a young defenseman.

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02-07-2013, 10:48 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
I don't understand the urgency to get this deal done so early. If they aren't in playoff contention that's an extremely valuable trade chip they have at the deadline to possibly acquire a young defenseman.
My guess is they wanted to assure he returns, regardless of what he may fetch at the deadline. I don't have a problem with them re-signing him at this point, I am just surprised by the amount of money they gave him.

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02-07-2013, 11:00 AM
  #131
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I really don't think he's worth $6m any more, let alone in 8 months time. I love the guy, but that's a lot of change for a 37/38 year old.

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02-07-2013, 12:25 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
So if we don't win the cup next year we might as well have a **** defense is that what you are saying?
Yeah, pretty much. If you know Timonen is done after next season and you know you're not going to win the cup next year, there's no reason to re-sign him. In fact, if Timonen is as good as most here seem to think he is, it might even handicap the Flyers for 2014-2015. Everyone will be used to having Timonen to eat up the hard minutes and QB the power-play, and when he's gone there will undoubtedly be a drop-off while guys learn to play without him and the younger players step up to take his minutes.

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02-07-2013, 12:46 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Funny, you argued that this team was a contender and only needed a#1 defensemen in another thread and should of sold a lot of youth to get Weber. So which is it?

So signing the best available UFA defensemen is prolonging the Flyers mediocrity? Last time I checked the Flyers aren't mediocre. 5 straight trips to the playoffs, 4 trips to the 2nd rd, 2 trips to the conference finals, 1 trip to the Stanley Cup finals.
I never argued that we should have sold a lot of youth to get Weber... NEVER. You might want to check on that and if you can find some proof, please send me a link. The only thing I argued was that the offer-sheet was a laughably bad move that prevented us the chance @ acquiring Weber. If we never sheeted him, I think he's playing on a 1 yr deal in NSH right now or potentially holding out and I think the Flyers could've traded for him at a bargain price (since he's a 1 yr rental), or would've had a shot at him as an unrestricted free agent.

As far as the Flyers being mediocre, they clearly are mediocre. The organization even believes their performance has been mediocre, as evidenced by the Richards and Carter trades. If the organization thought they were legitimate contenders back then, they wouldn't have pawned off two all-star forwards for futures. Holmgren decided to blow it up because he had 0 confidence in that roster winning anything. And since Homer made that trade, we are absolutely a mediocre team that's a mish-mosh of extreme youth and extremely old players. It's time to get rid of the old guys that are going to be gone in 1-2 years anyway and load up with guys who are in their prime and are hitting free agency for the first time, guys like Perry.

Maybe we'd be really bad for one year while we recover from the loss of Timonen, I'm willing to acknowledge that, but that 1 year hit would be worth it. You'd get a top draft pick and you'd be set up for a decade of success. Right now, all we've done by extending Timonen is shrinking our future cup window. We have no long-term plan for an elite #1 PMD. And rather than just admitting that and maybe taking a short-term hit next season so that we might be able to get one in the draft, Holmgren decided to extend Timonen and pray that something just materializes out of thin air and that a PMD just falls in his lap.

I hate this philosophy of team-building.

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02-07-2013, 01:04 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
Maybe we'd be really bad for one year while we recover from the loss of Timonen, I'm willing to acknowledge that, but that 1 year hit would be worth it. You'd get a top draft pick and you'd be set up for a decade of success. Right now, all we've done by extending Timonen is shrinking our future cup window. We have no long-term plan for an elite #1 PMD. And rather than just admitting that and maybe taking a short-term hit next season so that we might be able to get one in the draft, Holmgren decided to extend Timonen and pray that something just materializes out of thin air and that a PMD just falls in his lap.
You mean like the decade of success that followed after the Flyers drafted highly touted puck moving defenseman Joni Pitkanen 4th overall?

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02-07-2013, 01:07 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
You mean like the decade of success that followed after the Flyers drafted highly touted puck moving defenseman Joni Pitkanen 4th overall?
It's a better option than just putting it off till 2014 and saying "Meh, we'll worry about it then" aka the "Holmgren plan".

Sooner or later you've gotta pay the piper. Unless Timonen can play till he's 45-50.

I think it's smarter to rip the band-aid off while we're still a really young team, rather than wasting a year doing so when most guys are in their prime... but that's me.

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02-07-2013, 01:36 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
Yeah, pretty much. If you know Timonen is done after next season and you know you're not going to win the cup next year, there's no reason to re-sign him. In fact, if Timonen is as good as most here seem to think he is, it might even handicap the Flyers for 2014-2015. Everyone will be used to having Timonen to eat up the hard minutes and QB the power-play, and when he's gone there will undoubtedly be a drop-off while guys learn to play without him and the younger players step up to take his minutes.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. We will never see eye to eye on this issue. You just want to tank, I prefer to see the team I root for have a chance night in and night out. I also prefer seeing our young players (Luke) learn from veteran players and see day in and day out what it takes to be successful in this league.

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02-07-2013, 01:38 PM
  #137
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I love how some people on here think landing a number one defenseman is as easy as just submitting an offer to them. People need to realize that Weber and Suter hitting the market at the same time is a rarity. Fact is, number one defensemen are very rare to come by because most teams lock them up to long term deals before they even reach the open market. As well, when a team deals a number one defensemen, it's usually for the following reasons:

1) The player has requested a trade
2) The team is about to begin a rebuild and feel that moving their number defenseman will result in speeding up the rebuild by acquiring multiple assets
3) Said player is about to become a UFA and has no interest in re-signing with their team

That's the reality of the situation. Landing a number one defenseman isn't just that easy.

As for re-signing Timonen, it's a no brainer. Scott Stevens, Al MacInnis, Ray Bourque, and Rob Blake are just some defensemen who also had good seasons at 38 - 39 years of age. And if you look at Kimmo's numbers, he's right up there with them. Am I saying that he's as good as those guys listed? No, but he's no slouch either. So, for some to act like Kimmo is done is entirely premature.

As for not having a true "number 1" in the lineup, I think a team can survive with a number 2 and three number 3's in the lineup. Right now, I'd say that Schenn, Coburn, Grossmann and Meszaros fit the bill with regards to number 3 guys around the league.

So, for people to act like this is a club in a desperate situation is highly over-reacting.

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02-07-2013, 01:39 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
I never argued that we should have sold a lot of youth to get Weber... NEVER. You might want to check on that and if you can find some proof, please send me a link.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1336547&page=9

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I don't necessarily know what other teams would offer for Shea Weber, but any intelligent fan can get reasonably close by looking at what similar players w/ 1 year till UFA status have gotten. It starts w/ Brayden Schenn and then maybe you have to add a Voracek and a 1st. This is actually considerably more than most star players one year from UFA get, but Weber is elite so I upped the price a little. Would I trade that for the best defenseman in the game? Absolutely without hesitation.

As far as "gutting the roster", I don't think trading Schenn and Voracek and a 1st guts the roster at all. Far from it actually.
So Schenn, Voracek and 1st is not a lot of youth?

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As far as the Flyers being mediocre, they clearly are mediocre.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1336547&page=8
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We are a contending team desperately in need of a #1 defenseman and we came up empty. You can say 28 other teams failed, but how many of them were really trying? And how many of them can honestly say a #1D might've put them over the top?
So are they mediocre or are they one player away? Would they still be one player away without Kimmo?

As far as team building, I would much rather build thru the draft but that doesnt work in this market. Flyers fans would not wait on a 3-5 year rebuild, especially at those ticket prices. Also you do not need a top pick to get a #1 defensemen, as more than 50% come after round 1. It's really just luck.

The only thing Holmgren has not accomplished is winning the Stanley Cup, but he has put the Flyers in position to do it every year. His record proves that, whether you agree or not. The record is the record. Signing Kimmo keeps that window open for next year and gives the Flyers more time to figure out a long term solution on the back end.

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02-07-2013, 01:49 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1336547&page=9


So Schenn, Voracek and 1st is not a lot of youth?



http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1336547&page=8


So are they mediocre or are they one player away? Would they still be one player away without Kimmo?

As far as team building, I would much rather build thru the draft but that doesnt work in this market. Flyers fans would not wait on a 3-5 year rebuild, especially at those ticket prices. Also you do not need a top pick to get a #1 defensemen, as more than 50% come after round 1. It's really just luck.

The only thing Holmgren has not accomplished is winning the Stanley Cup, but he has put the Flyers in position to do it every year. His record proves that, whether you agree or not. The record is the record. Signing Kimmo keeps that window open for next year and gives the Flyers more time to figure out a long term solution on the back end.
Thank you for posting the contradictions, I knew they were there but looking for them would have been way too much time for me.

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02-07-2013, 01:52 PM
  #140
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To chip in on the issue, I like the signing. Maybe I was kind of expecting for him to be re-signed later in the season after we saw how he fared, but that's alright. Sure, $6 mio. is a lot and it might very well be an overpayment, but if it is I don't think it's by more than a $1 mio., and in my book that doesn't constitute something to fret over. I think players can learn from him and since he's been a Flyer for a while now, I'm actually inclined to such signings and not just looking for the best option available at the moment from a hockey business perspective. People clearly really like him here, as well, and apart from reasons already mentioned in this thread, I think such extensions only help to build the identity of a hockey club, rather than just being a band of mercenaries. Clearly, you're never going to have the same personably identifiable clubs in the NHL as in leagues elsewhere in the world, but stuff like this comes close. Plus, at this point I actually do think he's worth that, although whether that'll remain the case next year is still to be seen.

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02-07-2013, 01:58 PM
  #141
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Everyone needs to take a deep breath in here. Just think back for a second.

Remember how Carle sucked, so we didn't re-sign him so we could go after Suter. And now we lack a PMD. If we kept Carle at 4-5 mill, people still would have freaked out how he cost us getting Suter.

Remember how Jagr was becoming broken down and we wanted his $ to go after Parise? Now we ***** that Giroux has no elite wingers.

While I personally think he is a 5 million dollar D-man, as a UFA he would have gotten 6-6.5 on a 1 year deal from another team.

And see how hard it is to get a real #1 D-man? Well, we were about to loose OUR #1 D-man. And in a perfect world, we still find a way to get a real one. But at least now we have a back-up plan with Kimmo AND we have an asset that is free. Trading away a Mez or Grossman in a package with youth for a real #1 is easier because we have Kimmo to eat up the minutes...at least for 1 season.

And even if we can't get a #1 soon, at least we have a good #2 for 1 more year. Was everyone ready to go into next year with Coburn as a #1 and Schenn as a #2??? This signing bought us a little time and experience. Just wish it was for $5 mill...not $6 mill.

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02-07-2013, 02:02 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1336547&page=9


So Schenn, Voracek and 1st is not a lot of youth?
As I stated, Schenn, Voracek, and a 1st would've been the absolute 100% top return that Weber would've gotten if he was on a 1 year deal. I said many times I think the actual return would've been LESS. But even if that was the price, do I think that's a lot of youth to trade? Not really. It's 2 young pieces and a future pick for a young guy who's the best defenseman in the game.

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So are they mediocre or are they one player away? Would they still be one player away without Kimmo?
I argued that they were one Shea Weber (#1 defenseman in the league) away from being a true contender. There's a massive chasm between ADDING Shea Weber to the current team and KEEPING 38 year old Kimmo Timonen. KEEPING a roster in tact that went out in the 2nd round does nothing but prolong the mediocrity. And there's no piece in free agency this year that makes us a legitimate contender immediately.

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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
As far as team building, I would much rather build thru the draft but that doesnt work in this market. Flyers fans would not wait on a 3-5 year rebuild, especially at those ticket prices. Also you do not need a top pick to get a #1 defensemen, as more than 50% come after round 1. It's really just luck.

The only thing Holmgren has not accomplished is winning the Stanley Cup, but he has put the Flyers in position to do it every year. His record proves that, whether you agree or not. The record is the record. Signing Kimmo keeps that window open for next year and gives the Flyers more time to figure out a long term solution on the back end.
I never argued for a 3-5 year rebuild. I said we could afford a 1-2 year rebuild. There's a big difference there.

As far as Holmgren's "record", let's be real for a second: Holmgren took a team whose core was assembled mostly by Bobby Clarke and they went to the finals. They lost in the finals because they didn't have a #1 goaltender. Holmgren did NOTHING to remedy that situation. Then a year later, he blew that team up and brought in a 30 year old goalie after the fact to add to a rebuilding team. As far as putting us in position to win the cup every year, I'd totally disagree. Until 2011, we never had a goalie capable of winning the Stanley Cup and after 2011, we've been far to young a team to win the cup.

I'm sure you'll just accuse me of revisionist history and of being a master of hindsight, but I held the same views then that I do now.

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02-07-2013, 02:02 PM
  #143
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plus its only 6 mil for 1 year. We dont have any key RFAs to re-sign this offseason(Just Rinaldo/Sestito), plus Shelley and Walker's contracts are finally up.

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02-07-2013, 02:10 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
As far as Holmgren's "record", let's be real for a second: Holmgren took a team whose core was assembled mostly by Bobby Clarke and they went to the finals. They lost in the finals because they didn't have a #1 goaltender. Holmgren did NOTHING to remedy that situation. Then a year later, he blew that team up and brought in a 30 year old goalie after the fact to add to a rebuilding team. As far as putting us in position to win the cup every year, I'd totally disagree. Until 2011, we never had a goalie capable of winning the Stanley Cup and after 2011, we've been far to young a team to win the cup.

I'm sure you'll just accuse me of revisionist history and of being a master of hindsight, but I held the same views then that I do now.
I'm the biggest Bobby Clarke fan on this board and let me tell you something - the 2010 wasn't assembled by Clarke. It was assembled by the astute scouting of Paul Holmgren. Clarke's job was made incredibly easy by the work that Holmgren did.

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02-07-2013, 02:13 PM
  #145
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Kimmo Timonen and Alex Pietrangelo pairing is going to look so sweet next near.

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02-07-2013, 02:15 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I'm the biggest Bobby Clarke fan on this board and let me tell you something - the 2010 wasn't assembled by Clarke. It was assembled by the astute scouting of Paul Holmgren. Clarke's job was made incredibly easy by the work that Holmgren did.
Plus it was Holmgren who acquired Coburn, Timonen, Hartnell etc

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02-07-2013, 02:16 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
I argued that they were one Shea Weber (#1 defenseman in the league) away from being a true contender. There's a massive chasm between ADDING Shea Weber to the current team and KEEPING 38 year old Kimmo Timonen. KEEPING a roster in tact that went out in the 2nd round does nothing but prolong the mediocrity. And there's no piece in free agency this year that makes us a legitimate contender immediately.
Looks more like you said they are a contending team in need of a #1 defender, not a team that a #1 defender would make a contending team. If they are a contending team in search of a Shea Weber, that implies they are a contending team without him (i.e. the team they have now).

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02-07-2013, 02:30 PM
  #148
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As far as Holmgren's "record", let's be real for a second: Holmgren took a team whose core was assembled mostly by Bobby Clarke and they went to the finals. They lost in the finals because they didn't have a #1 goaltender. Holmgren did NOTHING to remedy that situation. Then a year later, he blew that team up and brought in a 30 year old goalie after the fact to add to a rebuilding team. As far as putting us in position to win the cup every year, I'd totally disagree. Until 2011, we never had a goalie capable of winning the Stanley Cup and after 2011, we've been far to young a team to win the cup.
.
Ok lets be real. There were 5 players on that Stanley Cup roster acquired during Bobby Clarke's GM time: Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Simon Gagne, Claude Giroux, and Andreas Nodl. Giroux and Nodl were drafted the season before Clarke was fired so hard to give him the credit for them but ok. I guess Briere, who tied the playoff scoring record, Leino, who broke the rookie playoff scoring record, Hartnell, and the ENTIRE defense were just supporting players and not really core players on that run. Holmgren did try to fix the goaltending position when he signed Ray Emery, for whom I contend if healthy the Flyers would have won that cup. I guess Holmgren should have known his hip would start literally dying midseason. Martin Biron was also thought to be a good goaltender at the time he was acquired, who only lost his job to the emerging Ryan Miller after backing up Hall of Famer Hasek. Just cause he didnt work out you cant accuse a GM of not trying.

I understand you hate Holmgren but his record puts him as a Top 5 GM in the league who deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Edit: 6 total players. I forgot Oskars Bartulis

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02-07-2013, 02:33 PM
  #149
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As I stated, Schenn, Voracek, and a 1st would've been the absolute 100% top return that Weber would've gotten if he was on a 1 year deal. I said many times I think the actual return would've been LESS. But even if that was the price, do I think that's a lot of youth to trade? Not really. It's 2 young pieces and a future pick for a young guy who's the best defenseman in the game.



I argued that they were one Shea Weber (#1 defenseman in the league) away from being a true contender. There's a massive chasm between ADDING Shea Weber to the current team and KEEPING 38 year old Kimmo Timonen. KEEPING a roster in tact that went out in the 2nd round does nothing but prolong the mediocrity. And there's no piece in free agency this year that makes us a legitimate contender immediately.



I never argued for a 3-5 year rebuild. I said we could afford a 1-2 year rebuild. There's a big difference there.

As far as Holmgren's "record", let's be real for a second: Holmgren took a team whose core was assembled mostly by Bobby Clarke and they went to the finals. They lost in the finals because they didn't have a #1 goaltender. Holmgren did NOTHING to remedy that situation. Then a year later, he blew that team up and brought in a 30 year old goalie after the fact to add to a rebuilding team. As far as putting us in position to win the cup every year, I'd totally disagree. Until 2011, we never had a goalie capable of winning the Stanley Cup and after 2011, we've been far to young a team to win the cup.

I'm sure you'll just accuse me of revisionist history and of being a master of hindsight, but I held the same views then that I do now.
Pretty much that whole team with the exception of G, Richards, Gagne and Carter were Holmgren. That includes, Timonen, Coburn, Pronger, Hartnell, Briere and Leino. And before Clarke left you can argue it was Holmgren that was responsible for the Giroux pick as well as Carter and Richards as he was the head of our scouting at the time

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02-07-2013, 02:35 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Martin Biron was also thought to be a good goaltender at the time he was acquired, who only lost his job to the emerging Ryan Miller after backing up Hall of Famer Hasek. Just cause he didnt work out you cant accuse a GM of not trying.
Poor Marty... I'll never understand why people say things like 'he didn't work out'. He was a fine starter for us - around league average. If his agent didn't price him out of a starting job in the league we would've won the cup with him in net.... sigh.

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