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What Does This Team Have To Do To Return To Greatness?

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Old
02-07-2013, 10:25 AM
  #26
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Going back to the original premise it is really quite simple. Kroenke needs to clean house from top to bottom. That includes management and the coaching staff. Fresh talent and perspective needs to be brought in from the outside. The cronyism/nepotism is no longer working and hasn't for nearly a decade. The "Avalanche" way is broken and ineffective.

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02-07-2013, 10:55 AM
  #27
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1) Fire Sacco, obviously.

2) Jones should have been traded at least year's deadline like it was so heavily rumored he would be. The guy is way too streaky and doesn't play with enough drive or heart since his big injury a few years back.

3) Trade Stastny. It's clear that his tenure is up. Instead of being that #1C he showed so much promise in becoming, he's regressed (mainly due to coaching) to a solid #2C. Duchene and O'Reilly are the way forward.

4) FFS sign O'Reilly because at this point it's beyond ridiculous.

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02-07-2013, 11:07 AM
  #28
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1. Invent a time machine.
2. Turn back time to 2001.
3. Continuously repeat step #2.

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02-07-2013, 11:23 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
Going back to the original premise it is really quite simple. Kroenke needs to clean house from top to bottom. That includes management and the coaching staff. Fresh talent and perspective needs to be brought in from the outside. The cronyism/nepotism is no longer working and hasn't for nearly a decade. The "Avalanche" way is broken and ineffective.
Actually I think it starts with the ability to fire Kroenke and then hire Burke. Our problems are solved.

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02-07-2013, 11:34 AM
  #30
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The problem is the Avs have some really good pieces, but Sherman failed to fill out the rest of the roster. I don't know if it was overrating the talent he thought he had here, but he really failed to improve beyond the impressive pieces on the roster. It reminds me of when I was younger and played any NHL dynasty mode. You trade all your depth for your favourite players, and then just sign a bunch of randoms to fill out the rest of the roster.

_____-Duchene-PAP
_____-Stastny-____
McGinn-O'Reilly-Downie

_______-Johnson

Varly

Is all the Avs really have on a consistent basis of being good players. Not a bad start, but Sherman just plugged the rest with bad players. I don't know if it is a Kroenke budget, or a Sherman accounting budget, but he needs to bring in some external talent.

Some teams who have done this in a quick re-build:
Florida- Took a "bad contract" in Campbell, and then signed a bunch of free agents last summer. Then they go on to make the playoffs. It's not like Sherman needs to go ballistic and sign 8 new guys, but he really should start looking to outside the organization for additional talent.

Tampa- They had ****** defencemen so they signed Salo, Ohlund, traded for Brewer, and signed Carle. All of a sudden, they have a pretty impressive team. Some of these contracts I wouldn't want burdening the Avs, but there is no doubt the defence has been turned around on that team. Also, they have a franchise defencemen in Hedman. So what do they do for him? They bring in a great veteran Swede, a great puckmover, and a great veteran. Hedman is now starting to break out.

Which is pretty much the opposite of what has happened in Colorado. The Avs made such a risky trade getting Johnson. Personally, I love it and would make the trade over and over and over. But Sherman shot himself in the foot after the deal. You get a young defencemen with all the tools and little confidence. So what does he do? Trade away the only other decent defenceman the Avs have, and leave EJ all on his own surrounded by 4/5/6's. This is kind of what Toronto did to Kessel. You bring in this great talent, and then you don't help him at all. On the bright side, EJ is 24 which is still incredibly young. Chicago didn't win the Cup till Seabrook/Keith were 25/27 in age. He has developed a great defensive game, for the most part, but may have lost his offensive creativity. There is no reason that playing with talent he won't put up 40+ points, but as other have alluded to, he is no Karlsson/Pietrangelo where he will do that without good support. I'm not really sure what to make of him. He is really one of the biggest keys going forward, but I'm not sure in which way. Whether that is as a player like Blake who is better offensively at the sacrifice of defence, or a player like Seabrook who is better with a good puck mover next to him. I'm thinking Seabrook personally. The Avs are 50% percent there to having a great top pairing.

The dead weight on the defense is so obvious. No need to go in depth here. Sherman made a big mistake piling up all the same type of player. Needs to clean house.

The good news here is that the we are already in February. Have very little to go in terms of season length (compared to a full season), and there seems to be a market for depth defenders. Were looking at a top pick come June, who could hopefully step in right away and make an impact. The deadline needs to be a sell off. If someone wants Jones/Hunwick/O'Brien, let them have them. Try and get a decent pick for O'Byrne. And if a team is really looking hard at Wilson/Hejda, then go for it.

Then Sherman needs to pull a Florida/Tampa and actually pick up multiple decent pieces in the free agent market. This obviously won't turn the Avs to a "great team." The only way that can happen is if the young talent that is here develops into great players. The easiest way to do that is get them some help. This is where free agency will help.

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02-07-2013, 11:40 AM
  #31
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The problem I have with the organization is the CIA level of secrets and clearance ultimately gives them a terrible PR staff.

One example is I don't think we have ever been told that the Avs are in a rebuilding state, it would make us (fans) much easier to grasp what their direction is besides going on a scavenger hunt and finding Sherlock Holmes clues to see if they plan on rebuilding, when that will end, etc.

I don't mind the organization to be secret, but even GM Lou from the Devils talks to the media and fans on occasion.

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02-07-2013, 11:46 AM
  #32
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Old
02-07-2013, 11:59 AM
  #33
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The key to succes is putting your players in situations where they can prosper. We paid a hefty price for both EJ and Varlamov and we did almost nothing to help them improve themselves. Av-American said no one expects EJ to be a guy like Weber, IMHO he can be just that if he's allowed to succeed, I think we can all agree that playing with guys like Hunwick, O'Brien etc isn't allowing him to play up to his best and considering Weber, people didn't really consider him to be an elite d-man until he got paired with Hamhuis and Suter. You just can't be on top of your game when you're constantly forced to play with guys who are at best #6 d-men on a playoff team.

Varly is the 2nd example, they aquire him, they don't pay a goalie coach, they make him play behind a defense that's so bad that it's almost a crime to be forced to watch them operate on NHL ice.

Stastny is the 3rd example, he's our highest paid player, our best playmaker and over the last couple of years he played with pretty much crap on his wings.

The way Avs treat their best players is pretty much borderline insane, it's like you go in a Ferrari shop, buy an Enzo and you drive it on dirt roads filled with holes. It makes no sense whatsoever.

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02-07-2013, 12:25 PM
  #34
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I understand how a lot of you just want to blow it up, and trade this guy and trade that guy...but thats not reality.

Joe Sacco has been here for a few years now.

The worst possible decision this team can make is to trade and sell off their players prior to making a coaching change.

This team, in the offseason, was built on the ability to run THREE, balanced scoring lines.

When you remove one of those lines completely, its always going to make it look worse.

But it is clearly evident that there is a severe lack of creativity on the offensive side. Coaching has really dumbed down their approach to try to make this team solid on d, and hope to win close games by playing a shell on defense.

The defense really just needs one addition. A top pairing defender. Undoubtedly.

A new coach, a top pairing defender and a healthy and fully signed lineup will do wonders for this team.
St Louis and Anaheim are perfect examples of the difference a coach can make to a lineup.

Wait til the season is over, can Sacco, and get yourself a new one.

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02-07-2013, 12:56 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
<snip>
Good thoughts.

I was going to respond with a list of things they need to do to get them back to greatness, but decided not to. This organization is now really broken from top to bottom - riddled with nepotism, incompetence, (unwarranted) arrogance, some truly bad hockey players, and more - that it's just too long of a list.

If *one* move were to be made to get the process started, that would be the sacking of Pierre Lacroix. Something that should have been done a long time ago. Most certainly it should have been done when the Avs fired Giguere et al.

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02-07-2013, 12:57 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
Going back to the original premise it is really quite simple. Kroenke needs to clean house from top to bottom. That includes management and the coaching staff. Fresh talent and perspective needs to be brought in from the outside. The cronyism/nepotism is no longer working and hasn't for nearly a decade. The "Avalanche" way is broken and ineffective.
Amen.

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02-07-2013, 01:04 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
The problem is the Avs have some really good pieces, but Sherman failed to fill out the rest of the roster. I don't know if it was overrating the talent he thought he had here, but he really failed to improve beyond the impressive pieces on the roster. It reminds me of when I was younger and played any NHL dynasty mode. You trade all your depth for your favourite players, and then just sign a bunch of randoms to fill out the rest of the roster.

_____-Duchene-PAP
_____-Stastny-____
McGinn-O'Reilly-Downie

_______-Johnson

Varly

Is all the Avs really have on a consistent basis of being good players. Not a bad start, but Sherman just plugged the rest with bad players. I don't know if it is a Kroenke budget, or a Sherman accounting budget, but he needs to bring in some external talent.

Some teams who have done this in a quick re-build:
Florida- Took a "bad contract" in Campbell, and then signed a bunch of free agents last summer. Then they go on to make the playoffs. It's not like Sherman needs to go ballistic and sign 8 new guys, but he really should start looking to outside the organization for additional talent.

Tampa- They had ****** defencemen so they signed Salo, Ohlund, traded for Brewer, and signed Carle. All of a sudden, they have a pretty impressive team. Some of these contracts I wouldn't want burdening the Avs, but there is no doubt the defence has been turned around on that team. Also, they have a franchise defencemen in Hedman. So what do they do for him? They bring in a great veteran Swede, a great puckmover, and a great veteran. Hedman is now starting to break out.

Which is pretty much the opposite of what has happened in Colorado. The Avs made such a risky trade getting Johnson. Personally, I love it and would make the trade over and over and over. But Sherman shot himself in the foot after the deal. You get a young defencemen with all the tools and little confidence. So what does he do? Trade away the only other decent defenceman the Avs have, and leave EJ all on his own surrounded by 4/5/6's. This is kind of what Toronto did to Kessel. You bring in this great talent, and then you don't help him at all. On the bright side, EJ is 24 which is still incredibly young. Chicago didn't win the Cup till Seabrook/Keith were 25/27 in age. He has developed a great defensive game, for the most part, but may have lost his offensive creativity. There is no reason that playing with talent he won't put up 40+ points, but as other have alluded to, he is no Karlsson/Pietrangelo where he will do that without good support. I'm not really sure what to make of him. He is really one of the biggest keys going forward, but I'm not sure in which way. Whether that is as a player like Blake who is better offensively at the sacrifice of defence, or a player like Seabrook who is better with a good puck mover next to him. I'm thinking Seabrook personally. The Avs are 50% percent there to having a great top pairing.

The dead weight on the defense is so obvious. No need to go in depth here. Sherman made a big mistake piling up all the same type of player. Needs to clean house.

The good news here is that the we are already in February. Have very little to go in terms of season length (compared to a full season), and there seems to be a market for depth defenders. Were looking at a top pick come June, who could hopefully step in right away and make an impact. The deadline needs to be a sell off. If someone wants Jones/Hunwick/O'Brien, let them have them. Try and get a decent pick for O'Byrne. And if a team is really looking hard at Wilson/Hejda, then go for it.

Then Sherman needs to pull a Florida/Tampa and actually pick up multiple decent pieces in the free agent market. This obviously won't turn the Avs to a "great team." The only way that can happen is if the young talent that is here develops into great players. The easiest way to do that is get them some help. This is where free agency will help.
I really hope Landeskog fits into those lines somewhere...

I also think that Staz can be replaced by O'reilly and Mitchel takes his spot which would allow us to make a move for a solid player. Making Mitchel a winger is STUPID...of course what else would we expect from Sacco...hes a moron. Sgarbossa should not be playing with grinders...give him a chance with some talent...NOT JONES...who might be the most inconsistent Av and did not deserve 4 mil a year.

Avs management is starting to lose me as a fan. I think back to when I first heard about the Avs in 95, I was in 6th grade and started listening on the radio to Mike Haynes. Ever since then I swore I would stick by them through the good times and the bad, I just never thought they would be cheap and not care about winning when I swore that. What really sucks is that we have players that I freaking love but management wont supply them with players to make them better or a coach to make the whole freaking team better. Do they realize that our Defense looks so bad but there is SOME talent there? Coaching maybe? SOB could be better than he plays. ROB could be better than he plays. Hunwick is Hunwick and Cumiskey was better than he is... At some point you have to say, there is talent there...but its not progressing...this must be a coaching issue. Im not saying our D is fine by any means, Im just saying they probably wouldnt be as bad with better coaching.

UGH Im so frustrated. It kills me to watch my team fail and the owner, GM, and coach not even care.

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Old
02-07-2013, 01:18 PM
  #38
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02-07-2013, 01:22 PM
  #39
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Amen.
Hmmm. It's deja vu all over again.

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02-07-2013, 01:27 PM
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I really hope Landeskog fits into those lines somewhere...

I also think that Staz can be replaced by O'reilly and Mitchel takes his spot which would allow us to make a move for a solid player. Making Mitchel a winger is STUPID...of course what else would we expect from Sacco...hes a moron. Sgarbossa should not be playing with grinders...give him a chance with some talent...NOT JONES...who might be the most inconsistent Av and did not deserve 4 mil a year.

I agree with this. If Mitchel is not a fluke, if he really can give it his all, he could be an easy replacement for O'Reilly's skill the first season. He's defensively responsible, he gives it his all, and he can be offensive some times. He's be a good third line center with less upside than O'Reilly had, but O'Reilly has outgrown that role.

First and foremost, Stastny is expendable... But beyond that, I think we should give Jones some time, and let the other players gel.

Sign O'Reilly, Trade Stastny for the best D payer you can get, Can Sacco, and give the team time to gel without changing their lines every other game.

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02-07-2013, 01:35 PM
  #41
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I agree with this. If Mitchel is not a fluke, if he really can give it his all, he could be an easy replacement for O'Reilly's skill the first season. He's defensively responsible, he gives it his all, and he can be offensive some times. He's be a good third line center with less upside than O'Reilly had, but O'Reilly has outgrown that role.

First and foremost, Stastny is expendable... But beyond that, I think we should give Jones some time, and let the other players gel.

Sign O'Reilly, Trade Stastny for the best D payer you can get, Can Sacco, and give the team time to gel without changing their lines every other game.
You'd give Jones time, but Stastny is expendable? And Johnny Malkin can't replace Radar in any aspect of the game of hockey.

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02-07-2013, 01:41 PM
  #42
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You'd give Jones time, but Stastny is expendable? And Johnny Malkin can't replace Radar in any aspect of the game of hockey.
Jones has had good flashes of greatness where as Stastny has been in autodrive since 2008. I still want to give Jones another season before giving up on him for the future of the team.

I'm not saying John Mitchell should replace O'Reilly, but he can replace the role O'Reilly filled in his first season, before everyone realized that O'Reilly can be SO MUCH MORE than just a defensive 3rd line center with some offensive spark. With the way he is playing, he could fill the role that we initially expected would be O'Reilly's ceiling. Before that ceiling was shattered, everyone raised their arms to rejoice and then Avs management said "Well eff everything, we are still judging your monetary value by your draft pick"

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02-07-2013, 01:55 PM
  #43
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02-07-2013, 02:19 PM
  #44
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Get the #1 pick during a year where the player doesn't want to Colorado. And then trade the pick for six players, 2 draft picks, and $15 million.

That's the Pierre LaCroix way to build a team.

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02-07-2013, 02:25 PM
  #45
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Jones has had good flashes of greatness where as Stastny has been in autodrive since 2008. I still want to give Jones another season before giving up on him for the future of the team.

I'm not saying John Mitchell should replace O'Reilly, but he can replace the role O'Reilly filled in his first season, before everyone realized that O'Reilly can be SO MUCH MORE than just a defensive 3rd line center with some offensive spark. With the way he is playing, he could fill the role that we initially expected would be O'Reilly's ceiling. Before that ceiling was shattered, everyone raised their arms to rejoice and then Avs management said "Well eff everything, we are still judging your monetary value by your draft pick"
The main reason for those flashes of greatness from Jones was Stastny, you know the guy that did all the dirty work and set up Jones with scoring chances.

Mitchell can't replace what Radar brought in his first season, because he's nowhere near good enough defensively. He's a guy with good set of hands who's known for making ill-advised risks at worst times. His high risk play can pay dividends, like it did thus far, but it's more likely to cost the team.

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02-07-2013, 02:28 PM
  #46
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Jones has had good flashes of greatness where as Stastny has been in autodrive since 2008. I still want to give Jones another season before giving up on him for the future of the team.

Jones is awful and invisible 90% of the time.

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02-07-2013, 02:31 PM
  #47
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It really bums me out to see even our own fans continuing to under-rate staz. Dude needs guys on his line to finish, if they don't he can't put up numbers, but that doesn't make him useless or expendable. He's a great faceoff guy, an excellent playmaker and passer, and a very strong two way player who chips in 20 goals a year. That's who he's always been and who still is.

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02-07-2013, 02:32 PM
  #48
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Get the #1 pick during a year where the player doesn't want to Colorado. And then trade the pick for six players, 2 draft picks, and $15 million.

That's the Pierre LaCroix way to build a team.
Lacroix didn't make that trade.

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02-07-2013, 02:37 PM
  #49
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Plus we're over-rating Mitchell off of a very small sample size. He's just not as good as our top 3 centers. He's a faceoff guy, he's a good skater and has a tricky shot, but he's not a good passer, makes very high risk decisions, and just is not as good defensively as Radar and Staz, hell Dutchy's been better defensively. He can be a competent 3C, but he'd always be a guy we'd like to see upgraded. I like keeping him around as a third pairing winger who can fill in at center when one of top 3 are missing, but if he wants a bigger role than that or doesn't adapt well to playing on O'Reilly's wing, I won't be too distraught to see him go.

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02-07-2013, 02:37 PM
  #50
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Jones deserves a lot of criticism no doubt, but I think a lot of his struggles are due to the fact that his bum knee is taking away the one thing that makes him effective--his speed. I'm not at all ready to throw the towel in on him. Like it or not he's not showing us anything new that he hasn't done before.

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