HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

NBA "sunbelt" expansion has also failed

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-07-2013, 03:40 PM
  #1
joelef
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 322
vCash: 500
NBA "sunbelt" expansion has also failed

For all the grief the "sunbelt" NHL teams get the NBA isnt doing any better. Charlotte is a joke. Atlanta attendance is pittful. The Miami heat cant get people to show up despite Lebron.Memphis is also a joke. New orleans Hornets were very close to relocating. Why does the NHL get all the flak for there southern expansion?

joelef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 03:44 PM
  #2
Shaz
Registered User
 
Shaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tacoma, WA
Country: United States
Posts: 122
vCash: 500
I've said it before and I'll say it again

The South as a whole could care less about Pro sports, they LOVE their college sports though

Give or take a few pro teams in the South that actually do well

Shaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 03:47 PM
  #3
HugoSimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 169
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelef View Post
For all the grief the "sunbelt" NHL teams get the NBA isnt doing any better. Charlotte is a joke. Atlanta attendance is pittful. The Miami heat cant get people to show up despite Lebron.Memphis is also a joke. New orleans Hornets were very close to relocating. Why does the NHL get all the flak for there southern expansion?
Grouping The south with southwest and florida isn`t useful.

In the south the issue is college sports.

It also fails to explain why the la kings out value the calgary flames.

Why the dallas star out value the oilers.

San jose out values ottawa.

Anaheim buffalo.

Or the preds out value the islanders.

HugoSimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 04:05 PM
  #4
IceAce
HEY BUD, LETS PARTY!
 
IceAce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,821
vCash: 400
Since 1999, every NBA Champion with the exception of the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics has come from either TX, FL, or CA.

The Lakers have been successful in SoCal for 60+ years.

All 3 TX teams are in the top 1/2 of NBA attendance

What exactly are you talking about? Yeah some of the Southern franchises suck, but so does Milwaukee and Minnesota and Portland and the Knicks and Inidiana,etc.

IceAce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 04:38 PM
  #5
LeafShark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelef View Post
For all the grief the "sunbelt" NHL teams get the NBA isnt doing any better. Charlotte is a joke. Atlanta attendance is pittful. The Miami heat cant get people to show up despite Lebron.Memphis is also a joke. New orleans Hornets were very close to relocating. Why does the NHL get all the flak for there southern expansion?
Honestly Atlanta's a great market for both NBA and NHL. They just have the worst owners in all of sports. Dare I say it, Atlanta was thriving in the NHL before ASG showed up. NBA's doing really badly in terms of growth at the moment because there is no sense of parity and no sense of change in the standings. You pretty much know who's going to win before the game is even played. In baseball, even the Yankees weren't guaranteed to make the finals every year. NBA's in real trouble nowadays. The NHL has a real chance to surpass the NBA within 50 years (not likely, but definitely possible) despite the disadvantage of the inconvenience and cost to play hockey. Currently hockey may very well be America's fastest growing sport.

I don't blame Bettman for considering the cities he selected for expansion. But he did too much, too soon, in small, unproven markets. I don't really classify this necessarily as a "sun-belt" effect as I'm sure Houston would do fantastic, Phoenix would have survived if they built their arena in-city, and Tampa Bay-Miami are getting back on their feet after a tough recession and bad play. Carolina and Anaheim I question the most. Buffalo also doesn't seem like a long-term viable market if there's going to be another team in the GTA-Hamilton area. People that say "hockey doesn't work in the south" are ignorant. The reality is that hockey doesn't work in small cities or suburbs... generally the places where the NHL expanded to... and happen to correlate with these "southern teams".

LeafShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 04:44 PM
  #6
joelef
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafShark View Post
Honestly Atlanta's a great market for both NBA and NHL. They just have the worst owners in all of sports. Dare I say it, Atlanta was thriving in the NHL before ASG showed up. NBA's doing really badly in terms of growth at the moment because there is no sense of parity and no sense of change in the standings. You pretty much know who's going to win before the game is even played. In baseball, even the Yankees weren't guaranteed to make the finals every year. NBA's in real trouble nowadays. The NHL has a real chance to surpass the NBA within 50 years (not likely, but definitely possible) despite the disadvantage of the inconvenience and cost to play hockey. Currently hockey may very well be America's fastest growing sport.

I don't blame Bettman for considering the cities he selected for expansion. But he did too much, too soon, in small, unproven markets. I don't really classify this necessarily as a "sun-belt" effect as I'm sure Houston would do fantastic, Phoenix would have survived if they built their arena in-city, and Tampa Bay-Miami are getting back on their feet after a tough recession and bad play. Carolina and Anaheim I question the most. Buffalo also doesn't seem like a long-term viable market if there's going to be another team in the GTA-Hamilton area. People that say "hockey doesn't work in the south" are ignorant. The reality is that hockey doesn't work in small cities or suburbs... generally the places where the NHL expanded to... and happen to correlate with these "southern teams".
Carolina has the advantage that there there only pro team in town. the other carolina pro teams are in charlotte. Also if the NHl is going to be bigger then the NBA it has to appeal to many different demographics.

joelef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 04:49 PM
  #7
jigglysquishy
Registered User
 
jigglysquishy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoSimon View Post
Grouping The south with southwest and florida isn`t useful.

In the south the issue is college sports.

It also fails to explain why the la kings out value the calgary flames.

Why the dallas star out value the oilers.

San jose out values ottawa.

Anaheim buffalo.

Or the preds out value the islanders.
Value is largely irrelevant.

The Oilers, Sens and Flames all out-revenue the southern teams. Only the Kings outdo the Flames, Sens, and Oilers (and its only by 3 mil) and LA is 5 times bigger than Calgary, Ottawa and Edmonton combined.

Hell, Winnipeg outdoes San Jose or Dallas in revenue.

jigglysquishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 04:52 PM
  #8
jigglysquishy
Registered User
 
jigglysquishy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceAce View Post
Since 1999, every NBA Champion with the exception of the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics has come from either TX, FL, or CA.

The Lakers have been successful in SoCal for 60+ years.

All 3 TX teams are in the top 1/2 of NBA attendance

What exactly are you talking about? Yeah some of the Southern franchises suck, but so does Milwaukee and Minnesota and Portland and the Knicks and Inidiana,etc.
I don't see how on-court success is in any way related to franchise success.

Is hockey more popular in Tampa than in Calgary because they won the cup more recently?

Is hockey more popular in Phoenix than in Toronto because they made the playoffs more recently?

I don't think anyone seriously considers LA to be in the top 10 hockey markets (or even top 15), yet they just won the cup.

jigglysquishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 04:55 PM
  #9
Armond White
Go Sabres!
 
Armond White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Oakland Zoo
Country: United States
Posts: 10,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafShark View Post
Buffalo also doesn't seem like a long-term viable market if there's going to be another team in the GTA-Hamilton area.
Heh.

Armond White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 04:58 PM
  #10
XX
... Waiting
 
XX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: 48th State
Country: United States
Posts: 25,972
vCash: 500
The NBA has no parity, so fans have little reason to watch unless they are one of a few teams with superstars. A fundamentally broken business model has made it this way.

XX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 05:03 PM
  #11
LeafShark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I don't see how on-court success is in any way related to franchise success.

Is hockey more popular in Tampa than in Calgary because they won the cup more recently?

Is hockey more popular in Phoenix than in Toronto because they made the playoffs more recently?

I don't think anyone seriously considers LA to be in the top 10 hockey markets (or even top 15), yet they just won the cup.
Performance leads to temporary franchise success. One only has to look at the Pittsburgh Penguins as an example. With Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh was great. With Crosby and Malkin, Pittsburgh is doing very good as well. In between, when Pittsburgh was the joke of the league, they almost moved. Extended bad performance alone could lead to a team getting moved. Columbus as another example. By all measures, they should be a viable market. They have just never won a playoff game in 10 years. There are other factors such as arena, ownership, and market, but performance as well does have a deep impact. Even though Toronto's doing very well, they could be doing even better. The Rangers should surpass Toronto in a few years because of this. Bad performance can kill a team that's in an almost stable market like Columbus, and good performance can make a market look better than it is in a weak market such as Pittsburgh or even Buffalo.

LeafShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 05:05 PM
  #12
HugoSimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 169
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Value is largely irrelevant.

The Oilers, Sens and Flames all out-revenue the southern teams. Only the Kings outdo the Flames, Sens, and Oilers (and its only by 3 mil) and LA is 5 times bigger than Calgary, Ottawa and Edmonton combined.

Hell, Winnipeg outdoes San Jose or Dallas in revenue.
Value is irrelevant.

Value has just as much to do with a teams long term revenue projections as it does current.

Obviously there is a notherness factor, and I`m not denying it`s their, but it`s a factor, just as overall size and saturation of a market is a factor.


Last edited by HugoSimon: 02-07-2013 at 05:12 PM.
HugoSimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 05:08 PM
  #13
IU Hawks fan
They call me 'IU'
 
IU Hawks fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: No longer IU
Country: United States
Posts: 17,448
vCash: 772
NBA attendance in general just SUCKS! This isn't a southern phenomenon, it's just a fact. When only 5 teams in the league are relevant contenders, other teams will have bad attendance.

IU Hawks fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 05:12 PM
  #14
Rob
Registered User
 
Rob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New Brunswick
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,804
vCash: 500
Unlike the NHL they have a huge national TV deal to draw from. So attendance does not matter as much.

Rob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 06:57 PM
  #15
bluesfan94
#BackesforSelke
 
bluesfan94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 5,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
The NBA has no parity, so fans have little reason to watch unless they are one of a few teams with superstars. A fundamentally broken business model has made it this way.
Business model and the way the game works. One superstar can elevate a team - look at Cleveland with LeBron compared to now.

bluesfan94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 08:36 PM
  #16
Ewan McGregor
Registered User
 
Ewan McGregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,699
vCash: 622
Florida as a whole is one of the worst state for sports. No idea why it has two NHL teams.

Ewan McGregor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 08:54 PM
  #17
XX
... Waiting
 
XX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: 48th State
Country: United States
Posts: 25,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewan McGregor View Post
Florida as a whole is one of the worst state for sports. No idea why it has two NHL teams.
Both teams are fine. Zero reason for you bring them into this.

XX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 09:35 PM
  #18
worstfaceoffmanever
What's the Pred say?
 
worstfaceoffmanever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,359
vCash: 500
You'd be forgiven for ignoring the attendance woes of the Milwaukee Bucks or the Indiana Pacers, the latter of whom are 20-3 at home, third in the Eastern Conference, and average 14,684 fans a game (27th in the NBA), because nobody seems to realize that either of those teams still exists. Or how about Detroit? 14,154 fans a game, and the warm bodies in the stands are well below that number. I don't see you calling those teams failures when, by the same metric you're using to judge Memphis, Charlotte, and Atlanta, they are very much failures.

Attendance in the NBA in general is terrible. You can almost count the number of consistently well-supported teams on one hand, and there is no sense of competitive balance (although that's tough to do in a sport where one player can make such a huge impact). The NBA has ceased to be about basketball and is far more of a place for the social butterflies to be seen, and when the team sucks, they don't go.

worstfaceoffmanever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 09:39 PM
  #19
gonzo11
Give the dog a bone
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: hf retirement home
Country: United Nations
Posts: 47,638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelef View Post
For all the grief the "sunbelt" NHL teams get the NBA isnt doing any better. Charlotte is a joke. Atlanta attendance is pittful. The Miami heat cant get people to show up despite Lebron.Memphis is also a joke. New orleans Hornets were very close to relocating. Why does the NHL get all the flak for there southern expansion?
can you please back this statement up with finacial paperwork please

gonzo11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 10:02 PM
  #20
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 10,740
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafShark View Post
I don't blame Bettman for considering the cities he selected for expansion. But he did too much, too soon, in small, unproven markets. I don't really classify this necessarily as a "sun-belt" effect as I'm sure Houston would do fantastic, Phoenix would have survived if they built their arena in-city, and Tampa Bay-Miami are getting back on their feet after a tough recession and bad play. Carolina and Anaheim I question the most. Buffalo also doesn't seem like a long-term viable market if there's going to be another team in the GTA-Hamilton area. People that say "hockey doesn't work in the south" are ignorant. The reality is that hockey doesn't work in small cities or suburbs... generally the places where the NHL expanded to... and happen to correlate with these "southern teams".
None of the cities you bring up were selected for expansion during Bettman's tenure as commishioner.

mouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 10:03 PM
  #21
JetsFlyHigh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 683
vCash: 500
Basketball is a TV league. Not a gate-driven league like the NHL.

Although in terms of population, some of those markets are doing really bad. But suddenly population matters when it comes to being NHL viable.

JetsFlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 10:30 PM
  #22
wildthing202
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Douglas, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 573
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to wildthing202 Send a message via Yahoo to wildthing202
Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Both teams are fine. Zero reason for you bring them into this.
Tampa's fine, Florida would be gone if their owners didn't own the arena.

wildthing202 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 10:37 PM
  #23
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
Modhnóirí Claonta
 
Faidh ar Rud Eigin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Transcendent
Country: Guernsey
Posts: 15,440
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Value is largely irrelevant.

The Oilers, Sens and Flames all out-revenue the southern teams. Only the Kings outdo the Flames, Sens, and Oilers (and its only by 3 mil) and LA is 5 times bigger than Calgary, Ottawa and Edmonton combined.

Hell, Winnipeg outdoes San Jose or Dallas in revenue.
Generally is you make more money you are worth more. It goes hand and hand in this league. There was a time the only teams that surpassed Dallas significantly in worth were the Rangers, Leafs and Canadiens. That wasn't that long ago.

Faidh ar Rud Eigin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 10:39 PM
  #24
LeafShark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Tampa's fine, Florida would be gone if their owners didn't own the arena.
While true, I think a great portion of the problem has been the performance on ice. I'm not sure if they would have been better off in Miami or not. The Panthers and the Blue Jackets seem to be in similar positions, and I think everyone would agree Columbus would be fine if they were performing on ice.

LeafShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2013, 11:03 PM
  #25
Glacial
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Tampa's fine, Florida would be gone if their owners didn't own the arena.
Florida (Sunrise) doesn't own the arena. IIRC, the County does. They do have the arena contract and the sum of all their events (hockey + concerts + more) is profitable even though the hockey isn't. He who has the hockey team gets the arena contract. No team, no deal. No deal, no business. They don't exist without the Panthers, therefore they need the Panthers. So long as the bottom line is profit, they're happy.

Glacial is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.