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Old
07-04-2006, 10:42 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
I don't see how 4.5 or 5mill over 4yrs is overpayment. Compair Gags to Elias.

There is no comparison. Gagne is not in Elias' league.


For Gagne to have a breakout season he needed the best player in the world to be put on his line and unconditionally never take him off.

For Gagne to be worth $5M he needs to start showing up in the playoffs


For Gagne to be worth $5M he needs to not be a 2nd line player and be the player he should be - on and off the ice.


I said back when the season ended that if he asked for too much that he should be traded and I stand by that. And someone will give up a lot for him as long as they have a #1 center to put him with. I have also said before that Gagne reminds me a lot like Joe Thornton in the sense that he doesn't hate to lose. Now Joe Thornton might have had a few underlying reasons as far as his relationship with the management, but it doesn't excuse anything.


Elias made an entire team better. Gagne needs other people to make him better.

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07-04-2006, 11:37 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The problem is that Gagne is not an 80+ point forward. He might max out to 80 at best. On top of that, when the game is on the line, he has a tendency to disappear. Others on here may disagree with that, but whenever this team has needed Gagne to step up and really deliver, he's failed to do so. People will point at his defensive ability and say he's stepped it up there, and I have no qualms with that. He's also an offensive player and when we've needed his offense in critical situations, he hasn't delivered. He's not a clutch player by any stretch of the imagination.

Someone on here compared him to Elias, but there's a huge difference between the two of them. Elias is a proven winner and has delivered when he's needed. Gagne hasn't.
Game 6. OT. Winner.

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07-04-2006, 11:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Greek_physique69 View Post
Gagne will wait till Tanguay signs (going to arbitration)
Similar players IMO,
Tanguay is a much better pure goal scorer (career 20% shooter) than Gagne (career 13% shooter).

Gagne should get paid for the defense that he brings to the table... you can babble all you want about the merits of his offensive ability, but the combination that he represents isn't common amongs NHL players.

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07-04-2006, 11:42 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
No, the market for defensmen is being set. Just because he is 22 and coming off his entry level contract doesn't mean he will be cheap. Everyone knows his potential, including his agent and other GMs
the market for established veteran dmen... this will be Joni's second contract and he's had one year where he showed what he's capable of before being derailed by injury. i bet he ends up on a 2 year deal for about 2-2.5 Million a year... maybe less, to be honest.

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07-04-2006, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Game 6. OT. Winner.
As much as we all love that memory, remember it took Bob Clarke openly calling Gagne out before he stepped up and notched 2 in that game. I believe signing Gagne to a 3 or 4 year deal is a priority, but I also agree with the posters before me - he needs to step up on a consistent basis both offensively and defensively, both on and off the ice, not just when he's on Forsberg's line.

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07-04-2006, 11:56 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
the market for established veteran dmen... this will be Joni's second contract and he's had one year where he showed what he's capable of before being derailed by injury. i bet he ends up on a 2 year deal for about 2-2.5 Million a year... maybe less, to be honest.
Hmmm well if that is true you had better do so quickly. Cause a team like mine has money, cap space, extra picks and a real need for a number 1 d-man...

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07-05-2006, 12:25 AM
  #57
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Just out of curiousity, would you Flyers' fans be interested in a deal centered around Markus Naslund and Simon Gagne? Just something to throw out there as a Naslund/Forsberg combo would be amazing and the Canucks may be looking to shed a bit more salary(if the could get Gagne signed for $4 mil) and are going in a more defensive system, and Gagne has proven to be a solid two-way player. I don't want to see Naslund traded, but I wouldn't put it past Nonis to possibly be looking at all options out there.

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07-05-2006, 01:47 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Just out of curiousity, would you Flyers' fans be interested in a deal centered around Markus Naslund and Simon Gagne? Just something to throw out there as a Naslund/Forsberg combo would be amazing and the Canucks may be looking to shed a bit more salary(if the could get Gagne signed for $4 mil) and are going in a more defensive system, and Gagne has proven to be a solid two-way player. I don't want to see Naslund traded, but I wouldn't put it past Nonis to possibly be looking at all options out there.
i dont want Gagne moving at all, but that is just my opinion obviously.

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07-05-2006, 07:48 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
just out of curiousity...

If Gagne and Pitkanen both ask for 4.5M+ can you afford to keep both? And if not, who do you want to keep?
Without hesitation, Pitkanen. Pitkanen is already the best defenseman this team has, which makes he more important than Gagne. Plus, Pitkanen has the potential to develop into one of the best defenseman in the NHL, if he isn't there already. Gagne is a good player, but he's not, and likely never will be, elite.

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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I honestly don't think Gagne is worth 4.5 million a year. Others on here will disagree with me on that. Gagne's a good player, but he isn't great and I don't think he'll ever be great. The problem is that there is a perceived notion that Gagne is a great player.

If you take a look around the league at players with similar skillsets like Gagne, they are paid in the 3 to 3.75 million range. Gagne fits right in there. If you take a look at the forwards who are averaging 4.5 million a year in salary, they've atleast had one 100 point season. Gagne has never had that in his career and probably won't either. For that reason alone, he's not worth the 4.5 million he's asking for.

I know people will point to the defensemen who have signed over the offseason and will say "well, Chara never scored 100 points in a season either, but he got 7.5 million." It's comparing oranges to apples. You're always going to pay a premium for great defensemen, but good forwards are pretty nearly a dime a dozen.

I don't know, I'm just getting fed up with the players in Philadelphia because every year, there's always someone who is holding out, or asking for money than what they're worth, or the Flyers end up spending more money on players that have played for other organizations, but they won't spend money on their own. It's like nothing can ever go right with this team and there's always some issue in the background lingering.
I kind of agree. I think Gagne is a good all-around player for sure, but he's not a "great" player. The problem lays in the fact that I don't believe Gagne is an 80 player without a centerman like Forsberg. Someone will reply and say "Well Gagne scored 66 points before he had an injury and Hitchcock put chains on him yada, yada." I just don't see him as an 80 point player with out Peter. Just look at how Gagne played while Forsberg was out with injury. He was still good, but was he that offensive lightning bolt that he was with Forsberg? Of course not. He was pretty "meh." "Well duh, he's gonna be worse without Forsberg...who wouldn't be?" someone might say. Well, truly "great" players are still able to create offensive chances even if they're playing with a lesser centerman. I'm not saying he's a bad player, because he's actually good all-around player, but I really don't want to see Clarke dole out loads of money to him, because Gagne would owe quite of a bit of it to Mr. Forsberg.
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Game 6. OT. Winner.
Doesn't make him clutch. I noticed much of the same as BCF16. I saw too much firing of the puck into the goalie's logo and too few clutch goals.

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07-05-2006, 09:04 AM
  #60
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An article at rotoworld.com ...

Simon Gagne, a restricted free agent, remains unsigned by the Philadelphia Flyers.
Unfortunately, the Flyers do not have much room to work with underneath the salary cap. GM Bob Clarke has roughly $6 million to work with, which is what Gagne will be looking for as an annual salary. They also need to sign Joni Pitkanen and Antero Niittymaki. Look for Clarke to make a few trades this summer in order to fit everyone in under the cap. Jul. 5 - 8:47 am et


If Gagne is looking for a $6 million/yr salary his freaking agent must think Bobby Clarke is Santa Claus. If true he needs to be traded. Unlike rotoworld though, I don't think Clarke is that stupid. The last player to successfully hold Clarke hostage was John LeClair and he won't be forgetting that for awhile (at least he was a proven 50 goal scorer though). Clarke will not overpay that much to keep his RFAs, he will not have to trade away players to fit under the salary cap just to sign those 3 players, it just may take a few weeks for the agents to get the $$$ out of their eyes after the first few days of Free Agency.

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07-05-2006, 09:58 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Doesn't make him clutch. I noticed much of the same as BCF16. I saw too much firing of the puck into the goalie's logo and too few clutch goals.
He is NOT an accurate shooter... in the slightest. The problem is that people act as if, and expect, him to be some kind of deadly sniper. He isn't. He's a sub 15% shooter... he has great wheels, plays extremely good defense, and has a quick trigger finger (very much in evidence this year). As a pure scorer he's not even remotely close to 4.5 Million player.

As a complete two-way player, he is. His overall skill-set is uncommon at this level, which makes him a very valuable player... people expect too much from on the offensive side of the game, which is what it is. He's not a 6 Million dollar player... however, 4-4.5 Million on a 4-5 year deal is fair.

The concept of "clutch" is much overplayed... If it exists at all, and numbers people will argue that it doesn't, it's a very small thing in comparison to normal results. Players are what they are... generally they don't play above what they are. Is Primeau suddenly some clutch offensive performer because he went off in one playoff season (we can ask this of Pisani as well...)? No.

If you want to make judgments of players, that's fine... however, don't fall back on the idea of "clutch" as a basis of judgment. Because it simply doesn't exist in most cases, for good or bad... and when it does exist in one direction or the other, it's almost always a minimal shift in play.

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07-05-2006, 10:06 AM
  #62
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Bobby Clarke should call up JFJ, we could use a winger of his calibre. Im pretty sure he would intimidate JFJ and quite easily be able to talk him into a deal in which the Leafs get hosed. Salary? pft, we don't mind overpaying.

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07-05-2006, 10:24 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Hmmm well if that is true you had better do so quickly. Cause a team like mine has money, cap space, extra picks and a real need for a number 1 d-man...
Over $4.0 million to $5.0 million -Two First Rounds, Second Round, and Third Round

Probably where you'd have to go to get Clarke to think about not matching... that's a steep price to pay in the salary cap world... high draft picks are immensely valuable. Even then, I wouldn't be shocked if Clarke took that price and offered Joni a long contract, because I think Joni will get to that price level of talent sooner rather than later.

Not that worried about Joni... I also believe that GMs have a handshake agreement to not go after RFAs because they don't want to get a rep as a vulture, so people don't feel bad going after their own RFAs. You also don't want to set precedent for giving RFAs high contracts because you then create problems with your own RFAs.

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07-05-2006, 10:38 AM
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Tanguay apparently has come to terms on a contract. Maybe it'll help with our situation.

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07-05-2006, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Over $4.0 million to $5.0 million -Two First Rounds, Second Round, and Third Round

Probably where you'd have to go to get Clarke to think about not matching... that's a steep price to pay in the salary cap world... high draft picks are immensely valuable. Even then, I wouldn't be shocked if Clarke took that price and offered Joni a long contract, because I think Joni will get to that price level of talent sooner rather than later.

Not that worried about Joni... I also believe that GMs have a handshake agreement to not go after RFAs because they don't want to get a rep as a vulture, so people don't feel bad going after their own RFAs. You also don't want to set precedent for giving RFAs high contracts because you then create problems with your own RFAs.
Well right now my team has a budget of 40M and we have spent around 19 of that with around 10M slotted for our RFAs, offering 4.99 to Pitkanen would be quite affordable to us. I'm just not sure Lowe wants to go down that road. Clarke strikes me as the vindictive type

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07-05-2006, 10:42 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Well right now my team has a budget of 40M and we have spent around 19 of that with around 10M slotted for our RFAs, offering 4.99 to Pitkanen would be quite affordable to us. I'm just not sure Lowe wants to go down that road. Clarke strikes me as the vindictive type
4.99 M for X years + all of those picks.

the real question is whether you think TRADING for that player is worth all of those picks... Lowe would be DESPISED by the rest of the GM community for throwing a giant inflationary contract out on the market is the other issue with that type of offer.

there are plenty of people with cash space available, not just Edmonton, btw.

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07-05-2006, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Well right now my team has a budget of 40M and we have spent around 19 of that with around 10M slotted for our RFAs, offering 4.99 to Pitkanen would be quite affordable to us. I'm just not sure Lowe wants to go down that road. Clarke strikes me as the vindictive type
I dont think it would be in the best interest for a small-mid market team to try that with the Flyers. Say five years from now and the cap is up to and over 50 million, the Oilers have a set budget of 42 million meanwhile the Flyers are spending up to the cap as always, now where will they spend those dollars?


Or this could happen, Oilers throw a Offer Sheet of 4.99 on Pitkanen. The Flyers match it but because it wont fit under the cap they are forced to dump some valuable players, it wouldnt be unlikely that those players end up in Calgary, Colorado, Vancouver or Minnesota...

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07-05-2006, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Well right now my team has a budget of 40M and we have spent around 19 of that with around 10M slotted for our RFAs, offering 4.99 to Pitkanen would be quite affordable to us. I'm just not sure Lowe wants to go down that road. Clarke strikes me as the vindictive type
If Lowe knows what's good for him and his ankles, he'll stay away from the Flyers' RFAs.

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07-05-2006, 11:21 AM
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TEMPTATION for BOBBY

Naslund and Cooke for Gagne & 2 round draft pick
  1. Gives you a player to leverage (resign) of Forsberg with... Naslund and him are buddies from school days
  2. Gives you a very versatile RW/LW in Cooke that can play in many situations and he's cheap. (could play on the 2/3rd lines as you require... even 1st line if you need an emergency filler)
  3. Naslund would score 60 goals with Forsberg....
  4. Cooke's good for 15+ and can agitate as well ... for no extra cost

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07-05-2006, 11:33 AM
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4.99 M for X years + all of those picks.

the real question is whether you think TRADING for that player is worth all of those picks... Lowe would be DESPISED by the rest of the GM community for throwing a giant inflationary contract out on the market is the other issue with that type of offer.

there are plenty of people with cash space available, not just Edmonton, btw.

oh for sure. i was just using my team as an example. Plenty of other teams have money and cap space too.

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07-05-2006, 11:42 AM
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I dont think it would be in the best interest for a small-mid market team to try that with the Flyers. Say five years from now and the cap is up to and over 50 million, the Oilers have a set budget of 42 million meanwhile the Flyers are spending up to the cap as always, now where will they spend those dollars?
Not a huge deal, for any offers under 5 we can match and for any over we can take the 4 1sts. Clarke would still have a cap to work under and if he started to base all his moves around screwing the oilers, he'd end up with a pretty poor team. Like it or not, RFA offers are part of the CBA. You guys can always sign him first or match any offer anyways.

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Or this could happen, Oilers throw a Offer Sheet of 4.99 on Pitkanen. The Flyers match it but because it wont fit under the cap they are forced to dump some valuable players, it wouldnt be unlikely that those players end up in Calgary, Colorado, Vancouver or Minnesota...

Because Cal, Minnie, Van and Colorado have so much cap space? Besides, how much worse can the NW really get for us? We're already screwed unless we get a number 1 D.

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07-05-2006, 11:51 AM
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Tanguay apparently has come to terms on a contract. Maybe it'll help with our situation.

Nope, doesn't help us

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The contract pays him $5 million in the first year, and $5.375 million in the next two seasons.

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07-05-2006, 11:54 AM
  #73
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I've never been too endearing to Tanguay. Obviously I think that's too much because I wouldn't even give that to Gagne. It's going to be real tough to sign all 4 RFA's without dumping someone with a ridiculously high salary... (look down )

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07-05-2006, 11:58 AM
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I've never been too endearing to Tanguay. Obviously I think that's too much because I wouldn't even give that to Gagne. It's going to be real tough to sign all 4 RFA's without dumping someone with a ridiculously high salary... (look down )
Tanguay earns a bit more with his scoring ability, he's a better shooter than Gagne... there's no argument about that fact. Gagne is a better two-way player, but pure defense doesn't earn you as much as a few more goals a year.

why?

the 6 million we could spend on UFAs was with the assumption of contracts to all of those players. Nitty and Umberger aren't going to get huge raises... and Pitkanen isn't going to get something obscene, in my opinion, either.

Gagne was budgeted as a 4 Million contract for the purposes of coming to that 6 Million dollar figure for UFAs. NOT signing a big UFA leaves us with flexibility in dealing with our RFAs.

we just need to get the deal done... if someone puts a 4.5 million dollar contract in front of Gagne, we match... if they go to 5 Million, i think you take the 4 first rounders.

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07-05-2006, 01:35 PM
  #75
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He is NOT an accurate shooter... in the slightest. The problem is that people act as if, and expect, him to be some kind of deadly sniper. He isn't. He's a sub 15% shooter... he has great wheels, plays extremely good defense, and has a quick trigger finger (very much in evidence this year). As a pure scorer he's not even remotely close to 4.5 Million player.

As a complete two-way player, he is. His overall skill-set is uncommon at this level, which makes him a very valuable player... people expect too much from on the offensive side of the game, which is what it is. He's not a 6 Million dollar player... however, 4-4.5 Million on a 4-5 year deal is fair.

The concept of "clutch" is much overplayed... If it exists at all, and numbers people will argue that it doesn't, it's a very small thing in comparison to normal results. Players are what they are... generally they don't play above what they are. Is Primeau suddenly some clutch offensive performer because he went off in one playoff season (we can ask this of Pisani as well...)? No.

If you want to make judgments of players, that's fine... however, don't fall back on the idea of "clutch" as a basis of judgment. Because it simply doesn't exist in most cases, for good or bad... and when it does exist in one direction or the other, it's almost always a minimal shift in play.
If you want to make a comparison for Gagne, Jere Lehtinen is about as close as you can get. And Lehtinen is not a 4.5 million a year player.

As for being a clutch performer, I do think that being a clutch performer has some bearing and merit. Some players know when to step it up when they really need to. That's what clutch is all about. It's about stepping up, laying everything on the line, and playing as if the next game is their last. There's a sense of desperation, there's a sense of fear, there's a sense of anger in their play. They do things they normally don't do and as a whole, their elevated level of play brings everyone else up. You don't see that from Gagne. He's not a player that can inspire others around him to play at a high level. That's the thing with Gagne. Good overall player, but just doesn't have that little extra to inspire others or isn't willing to lay it all on the line when the game matters.

You talk about a game six OT goal. Big deal. Gagne has been involved with the team in terms of some of the biggest playoff disappointments. Just remember, 8 years - eliminated in the first round 5 times. There's no clutch ability from Gagne at all. If you're going to talk about clutch as being irrelevant, then someone on here I guess has to talk about clutch being relevant.

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