HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Notices

All Encompassing Winger Acquisition Thread | Part II: "The Winger Mystery Deepens"

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-07-2013, 10:17 PM
  #826
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 16,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
You can't trade a guy who's injured like Niskanen right?
We wouldn't move him until he's back healthy. But he doesn't have to be the one going the other way. Plenty of other assets to use in a deal for Kulemin.

mpp9 is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:19 PM
  #827
SprootsMasterFlex
Snooki for President
 
SprootsMasterFlex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,216
vCash: 500
I'd still like to see Shero take a chance on Setoguchi given that he's pretty cheap to acquire now.

SprootsMasterFlex is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:20 PM
  #828
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I agree with you. The worst part is he gets a raw deal almost exclusively for 1) something that isn't his fault (the trade) and 2) a logical fallacy that the trade was Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton, and not what it actually was, which is Kessel for unslotted draft picks.

If you needed another reason to want him on this team (outside of his amazing offensive skills), his personality would be fine with all the stars. He's shy and would love to fade into the background (spotlight wise) behind Crosby and Malkin.
I wasn't a fan of Brian Burke and his giant head, but he gets a lot of undue flak for that trade.

My mindset would have been the same: "What are the odds that anyone I draft is going to be an automatic 35+ goal scorer?"

If the Leafs are a couple of spots higher in the standings, while still missing the playoffs, it ends up being a pretty good trade for both teams, but not the one sided deal everyone perceives.

The only thing I really fault Burke for is getting a winger before having a center, or never providing one after the trade was made.

MtlPenFan is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #829
MrBurgundy*
Time to move forward
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: GlassCase of Emotion
Country: United States
Posts: 16,896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
We wouldn't move him until he's back healthy. But he doesn't have to be the one going the other way. Plenty of other assets to use in a deal for Kulemin.
I agree, but like I said in the Niskanen thread, I think he's going to be on the trading block sooner rather than later anyway.

MrBurgundy* is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #830
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SprootsMasterFlex View Post
I'd still like to see Shero take a chance on Setoguchi given that he's pretty cheap to acquire now.
Oh hell no. That guy has Cheechoo retread written all over him.

MtlPenFan is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #831
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I wasn't a fan of Brian Burke and his giant head, but he gets a lot of undue flak for that trade.

My mindset would have been the same: "What are the odds that anyone I draft is going to be an automatic 35+ goal scorer?"

If the Leafs are a couple of spots higher in the standings, while still missing the playoffs, it ends up being a pretty good trade for both teams, but not the one sided deal everyone perceives.

The only thing I really fault Burke for is getting a winger before having a center, or never providing one after the trade was made.
Maybe you could fault him for not taking the half dozen first round picks he could've gotten for some of his players at last year's trade deadline.

KIRK is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #832
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 31,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes View Post
Pens and coyotes have a relationship. Pens gave em back michalek, for an unofficial agreement they would trade us vrbata if they are out of contention. Expect another great deadline pickup without giving up much
I'm assuming you just made this up?

Ogrezilla is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #833
IcedCapp
IcedCapp The White
 
IcedCapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SprootsMasterFlex View Post
I'd still like to see Shero take a chance on Setoguchi given that he's pretty cheap to acquire now.
I actually think he's "untouchable" right now, in that they aren't going to trade him while his value is at an all-time low. They're going to do whatever they can to rehabilitate some value before trying to move him, I'd imagine. (Unless someone wants to offer him market value for what he did years past)

IcedCapp is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:23 PM
  #834
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I actually think he's "untouchable" right now, in that they aren't going to trade him while his value is at an all-time low. They're going to do whatever they can to rehabilitate some value before trying to move him, I'd imagine. (Unless someone wants to offer him market value for what he did years past)
Frankly, I hope Shero is aiming higher for Sid's second wheel.

KIRK is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:24 PM
  #835
WarriorScholar
Registered User
 
WarriorScholar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'm assuming you just made this up?
Yes. But I won $24 on penny slots last week. And $15 on a $2 scratch off today. No worries


Jokes aside , I can see us getting him. Trade relationship being part of the reason. Just my prediction

WarriorScholar is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:27 PM
  #836
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes View Post
Yes. But I won $24 on penny slots last week. And $15 on a $2 scratch off today. No worries
Good for you.

KIRK is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:33 PM
  #837
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Maybe you could fault him for not taking the half dozen first round picks he could've gotten for some of his players at last year's trade deadline.
I'm pretty sure they were still in a playoff spot at that point, though I could be wrong.

It's flawed logic, but I can still understand why he thought the biggest Canadian market making the playoffs for the first time in ages was more important than securing the future.

Unfortunately, being a GM is a lot like politics. You do the wrong thing simply to continue to have a job. That's why I'm curious as **** to see what McPhee does next.

MtlPenFan is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:34 PM
  #838
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,039
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Why are you moving Kunitz at all? Why are you obsessed with Pascal Dupuis being in the top six for the playoffs?
Dupuis is fine with a Crosby and a sniper like Phil Kessel. Just like he was fine with Crosby and Marian Hossa back in the day. I have always liked him better at LW anyway, not right wing (where a lefty shooter is expected to be more of a scorer).

Dupuis really doesn't fit on this team unless he is playing with Crosby. Because none of Cooke, Sutter or Kennedy should be playing in the top six, and none of those guys should be playing on the fourth line (including Dupuis).

I wouldn't re-sign Dupuis after this season (I'd look for an upgrade in skill), and if we could include him in a winger trade (or Cooke or Kennedy for that matter), I'd definitely do that.

But as we're currently constructed, Dupuis' best spot in the lineup is at LW next to Crosby (with a new sniper on the right side and Kunitz back where he belongs with Malkin and Neal).

IMO.

Jag68Sid87 is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:36 PM
  #839
Funk311
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 910
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes View Post
Yes. But I won $24 on penny slots last week. And $15 on a $2 scratch off today. No worries


Jokes aside , I can see us getting him. Trade relationship being part of the reason. Just my prediction
Hahaha, i love how you slipped that "rumor" in there. that cracked me up. I can just imagine vrbata in his hotel room....."why they trade Ratim?"

Funk311 is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:36 PM
  #840
IcedCapp
IcedCapp The White
 
IcedCapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I wasn't a fan of Brian Burke and his giant head, but he gets a lot of undue flak for that trade.

My mindset would have been the same: "What are the odds that anyone I draft is going to be an automatic 35+ goal scorer?"

If the Leafs are a couple of spots higher in the standings, while still missing the playoffs, it ends up being a pretty good trade for both teams, but not the one sided deal everyone perceives.

The only thing I really fault Burke for is getting a winger before having a center, or never providing one after the trade was made.
Yep, agree with all of that. He (and Phil) became sympathetic figures to me just because of how idiotic the discussion of that trade became.

Anyhow, I'd love to have Kessel on this team, but I know it's impossible. Pens have no extra centers or center prospects laying around, and I'm not even sure what a package of futures that would entice the Leafs would look like.

None of this is to mention that the Leafs are currently in a playoff position and will only get better when Lupul returns.

IcedCapp is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:38 PM
  #841
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 16,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Dupuis is fine with a Crosby and a sniper like Phil Kessel. Just like he was fine with Crosby and Marian Hossa back in the day. I have always liked him better at LW anyway, not right wing (where a lefty shooter is expected to be more of a scorer).

Dupuis really doesn't fit on this team unless he is playing with Crosby. Because none of Cooke, Sutter or Kennedy should be playing in the top six, and none of those guys should be playing on the fourth line (including Dupuis).

I wouldn't re-sign Dupuis after this season (I'd look for an upgrade in skill), and if we could include him in a winger trade (or Cooke or Kennedy for that matter), I'd definitely do that.

But as we're currently constructed, Dupuis' best spot in the lineup is at LW next to Crosby (with a new sniper on the right side and Kunitz back where he belongs with Malkin and Neal).

IMO.
I'd rather use some expendable assets and bump Dupuis down to the third line. TK then can be used a trade chip.

mpp9 is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:38 PM
  #842
jmelm
HFBoards Sponsor
 
jmelm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
It's interesting because I remember Maata was rated #10-15 in a lot of places and Pouliot was ranked much lower (I think in the early 2nd round in some cases), but if you ask most people here it's like Maata is less valuable because of where we picked him.
Pouliot was rated in the top-10 (#7 I believe) in Bob McKenzie's top-10 prospect list to start the season. He finished the year just outside of the top-10 (#13 or 14). He was also the #1 overall pick in the WHL in his draft year, and played a lot for team Canada in under-17 and under-18 tourneys over the last few years. So the pedigree is there. (Pouliot was ranked #10 midterm by Central Scouting, and #12 in their final rankings)

Maatta, on the other hand: there was much less consensus on this player, and scouts were a lot more "all over the board" with where they ranked him. This is why he "fell" all the way to 22nd, even though some teams had him ranked much higher, they liked other guys even more. And while Maatta played internatially for Finland as a young player, it's also been a fairly weak squad to crack over the last several years. Maatta took a big jump in the rankings in some scouts'/teams' rankings with his playoff performance and the jump in his offensive numbers. But the jury is still out on if this was an anomoly to a degree, or a sign of untapped offensive potential. It's fair to say that the jury is still out on his potential to a large degree, so that's why there could be more inclination on our part to trade him, versus a guy like Despres and/or Dumoulin who are more developed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
I'd say things with Pouliot hinges.. more on Morrow than, Letang.
I would say this is a signifcant factor and a fair point, though it's also dependent on a couple other things: 1) Pouliot's own development (if he's a stud, you keep him regardless, and keep him instead of/in addition to Morrow); and 2) It depends on the offensive upside/contribution of player like Despres, Dumoulin and others. Personally, I don't think Despres or Dumoulin will be huge point producers or legit PP-QBs at the NHL level, but if they were able to do that, then it could make Pouliot's place less important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Strait>>>Lovejoy and if Lovejoy is worth a 5th in 2014 then Strait was worth a 5th in 2013. As small as it is, that was bad asset management. It's also one we shouldn't harp on for years.
An important point needs to be made: while I really do not like to see a good asset like Strait leave for nothing, sometimes it's important to not trade a guy for a return that is poor to set a precedent to other GMs. For examlpe, when Burke couldn't get a good return from the interested teams for Bryzgalov when he was the GM of ANA, he put him on waivers instead out of principle. If Shero was really being offered scraps for Strait, then I don't have a problem with him being put on waivers. But the truth is, we'll probably never know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'd do Maatta+1st for Kulemin+3rd. We won't miss either of those two pieces and we fill a hole in the top 6 longterm.

This year, more than any other in a long, long time, we have the potential of drafting a legitimate all-star level player with our first round pick. There are guys who will go in the late-teens to the end of the 1st round that could have gone in the top-10/12 in last year's draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Bennett's name has barely come up in this thread (for fairly obvious reasons), but I think he's probably our most attractive chip after Despres. I bet if Shero calls Calgary on Iggy, Bennett's name is the first one they bring up.
While there would be a nice sense of symmetry & equillibrium in the universe if Iggy was traded for a talented forward (like Iggy was himself traded for Niewendyk), the truth is that Calgary is perhaps as, if not more, needy on the blue-line than they are up front. Same goes with Anaheim. This is why they are good trade partners (unlike the Leafs or, say, Columbus, whose relative depth is on the blueline). I would prefer not to trade Bennett at all, because I don't want to bring in one established forward for a young forward (because to me it's one step forward, one step back), and it makes infinitely more sense to trade from our depth at defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesedanish87 View Post
Even though pens have alot of def prospects and no other wingers coming up besides bennett id rather them trade bennett then def prospects bennett is so small and hes always hurt I dunno how this guy is gonna survive in the NHL.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call BS here. I have seen BB at Gold's Gym in LA, in person, where he was training with TR over the off-season. While he may be a touch shy of the 6'2 he is sometimes listed at, this guy is clearly a solid 6'1. So you're way off base on the issue of his size. He does need to continue to get stronger, and I'm sure if he spends another summer training with TR he will get there, and if that happens and he can play most of this season & playoffs, it's very hard not to see him in the top-6 in the NHL next season.

jmelm is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:39 PM
  #843
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,039
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'd rather use some expendable assets and bump Dupuis down to the third line. TK then can be used a trade chip.
TK has less value around the league than Dupuis or Cooke.

Jag68Sid87 is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:40 PM
  #844
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I'm pretty sure they were still in a playoff spot at that point, though I could be wrong.

It's flawed logic, but I can still understand why he thought the biggest Canadian market making the playoffs for the first time in ages was more important than securing the future.

Unfortunately, being a GM is a lot like politics. You do the wrong thing simply to continue to have a job. That's why I'm curious as **** to see what McPhee does next.
They were 'in' in the sense that they'd have needed to play like .750 or so hockey the rest of the way to make it.

KIRK is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:42 PM
  #845
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Dupuis is fine with a Crosby and a sniper like Phil Kessel. Just like he was fine with Crosby and Marian Hossa back in the day. I have always liked him better at LW anyway, not right wing (where a lefty shooter is expected to be more of a scorer).

Dupuis really doesn't fit on this team unless he is playing with Crosby. Because none of Cooke, Sutter or Kennedy should be playing in the top six, and none of those guys should be playing on the fourth line (including Dupuis).

I wouldn't re-sign Dupuis after this season (I'd look for an upgrade in skill), and if we could include him in a winger trade (or Cooke or Kennedy for that matter), I'd definitely do that.

But as we're currently constructed, Dupuis' best spot in the lineup is at LW next to Crosby (with a new sniper on the right side and Kunitz back where he belongs with Malkin and Neal).

IMO.
Is that why he was a 25g, 32a-- career high-- player playing all but 22 games last year with Staal or one of the other centers not named Malkin (you know, for the 60 games Crosby was out).

KIRK is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:43 PM
  #846
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,039
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Is that why he was a 25g, 32a-- career high-- player playing all but 22 games last year with Staal or one of the other centers not named Malkin (you know, for the 60 games Crosby was out).
So who you want to move to Crosby's line to bump Dupuis down, KIRK? Cooke? Sutter? Kennedy?

I'll wait.


Jag68Sid87 is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:43 PM
  #847
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Pouliot was rated in the top-10 (#7 I believe) in Bob McKenzie's top-10 prospect list to start the season. He finished the year just outside of the top-10 (#13 or 14). He was also the #1 overall pick in the WHL in his draft year, and played a lot for team Canada in under-17 and under-18 tourneys over the last few years. So the pedigree is there. (Pouliot was ranked #10 midterm by Central Scouting, and #12 in their final rankings)

Maatta, on the other hand: there was much less consensus on this player, and scouts were a lot more "all over the board" with where they ranked him. This is why he "fell" all the way to 22nd, even though some teams had him ranked much higher, they liked other guys even more. And while Maatta played internatially for Finland as a young player, it's also been a fairly weak squad to crack over the last several years. Maatta took a big jump in the rankings in some scouts'/teams' rankings with his playoff performance and the jump in his offensive numbers. But the jury is still out on if this was an anomoly to a degree, or a sign of untapped offensive potential. It's fair to say that the jury is still out on his potential to a large degree, so that's why there could be more inclination on our part to trade him, versus a guy like Despres and/or Dumoulin who are more developed.




I would say this is a signifcant factor and a fair point, though it's also dependent on a couple other things: 1) Pouliot's own development (if he's a stud, you keep him regardless, and keep him instead of/in addition to Morrow); and 2) It depends on the offensive upside/contribution of player like Despres, Dumoulin and others. Personally, I don't think Despres or Dumoulin will be huge point producers or legit PP-QBs at the NHL level, but if they were able to do that, then it could make Pouliot's place less important.



An important point needs to be made: while I really do not like to see a good asset like Strait leave for nothing, sometimes it's important to not trade a guy for a return that is poor to set a precedent to other GMs. For examlpe, when Burke couldn't get a good return from the interested teams for Bryzgalov when he was the GM of ANA, he put him on waivers instead out of principle. If Shero was really being offered scraps for Strait, then I don't have a problem with him being put on waivers. But the truth is, we'll probably never know.




This year, more than any other in a long, long time, we have the potential of drafting a legitimate all-star level player with our first round pick.
There are guys who will go in the late-teens to the end of the 1st round that could have gone in the top-10/12 in last year's draft.



While there would be a nice sense of symmetry & equillibrium in the universe if Iggy was traded for a talented forward (like Iggy was himself traded for Niewendyk), the truth is that Calgary is perhaps as, if not more, needy on the blue-line than they are up front. Same goes with Anaheim. This is why they are good trade partners (unlike the Leafs or, say, Columbus, whose relative depth is on the blueline). I would prefer not to trade Bennett at all, because I don't want to bring in one established forward for a young forward (because to me it's one step forward, one step back), and it makes infinitely more sense to trade from our depth at defense.



I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call BS here. I have seen BB at Gold's Gym in LA, in person, where he was training with TR over the off-season. While he may be a touch shy of the 6'2 he is sometimes listed at, this guy is clearly a solid 6'1. So you're way off base on the issue of his size. He does need to continue to get stronger, and I'm sure if he spends another summer training with TR he will get there, and if that happens and he can play most of this season & playoffs, it's very hard not to see him in the top-6 in the NHL next season.
Will he make a significant impact before Sid and Geno turn 30?

KIRK is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:44 PM
  #848
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,039
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Will he make a significant impact before Sid and Geno turn 30?
Of course he could. The organization just has to change their way of thinking to allow it.

Jag68Sid87 is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:44 PM
  #849
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
So who you want to move to Crosby's line to bump Dupuis down, KIRK? Cooke? Sutter? Kennedy?

I'll wait.

Uh, whoever Shero acquires.

I want him to acquire a third wheel for Geno and Neal.

Leave Kunitz with Sid. He's a natural fit with Sid. His limitations on the boards with Geno and Neal showed in the playoffs.

Consider your wait ended.

EDIT: FYI, I was saying the same thing last year. But, I will concede, if you get a winger like Hossa who does it all, then Dupuis is o'k on the LW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Of course he could. The organization just has to change their way of thinking to allow it.
Shall I pack my skates for the ice follies in the netherworld now?

KIRK is offline  
Old
02-07-2013, 10:44 PM
  #850
IcedCapp
IcedCapp The White
 
IcedCapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm View Post

While there would be a nice sense of symmetry & equillibrium in the universe if Iggy was traded for a talented forward (like Iggy was himself traded for Niewendyk), the truth is that Calgary is perhaps as, if not more, needy on the blue-line than they are up front. Same goes with Anaheim. This is why they are good trade partners (unlike the Leafs or, say, Columbus, whose relative depth is on the blueline). I would prefer not to trade Bennett at all, because I don't want to bring in one established forward for a young forward (because to me it's one step forward, one step back), and it makes infinitely more sense to trade from our depth at defense.
I agree with this unless BB is traded for a young, locked up, offensive-minded winger. In that case, you'd have Sniper - Crosby and Neal - Malkin locked in together and you'd only have to worry about dirty work guys.

Speaking of: for people who want to move Kunitz to Malkin's line: that sort of leaves the same hole on Sid's line that Geno's line currently has.

Anyone willing to try a Kunitz - Sid - Boychuk and Dupuis - Geno - Neal experiment?

IcedCapp is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.