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What Does This Team Have To Do To Return To Greatness?

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Old
02-07-2013, 01:46 PM
  #51
ABasin
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Jones deserves a lot of criticism no doubt, but I think a lot of his struggles are due to the fact that his bum knee is taking away the one thing that makes him effective--his speed. I'm not at all ready to throw the towel in on him. Like it or not he's not showing us anything new that he hasn't done before.
Since his knee injury, Jones has been more or less a 100% one-trick pony: getting garbage goals around the net. And he's good at it - he positions himself well, he has some size/strength to hang there, and his hands aren't bad.

But the combination of the defensemen not getting pucks at the net, and Stastny looking more and more like Scott Gomez every day (massive plagiarism there, sorry E...z) is killing Jones' game. I'm not completely absolving Jones either, but if the Avs don't move the puck around the offensive zone and get it to the net with regularity, Jones is going to be relatively useless.

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02-07-2013, 01:51 PM
  #52
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I actually thought Jones looked kinda good the first two games, then it sorta all went to ****, he made some plays with his speed, drove the puck on net and looked like Jones of old. I'm willing to blame what we saw after that on his knee and boozing it up with Downie and SOB once they got injured and benched.

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02-07-2013, 01:54 PM
  #53
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I don't see how we keep Sacco much longer
You'll be happy we kept him when we land a top 5 pick

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02-07-2013, 02:12 PM
  #54
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Bottom line is, since Forsberg, Sakic, Roy days finished, the Avs don't feel confident about their current team.

They don't have enough confidence in Stastny and Duchene like they did in Sakic and Forsberg to start spending big money and surround them with other great players like this organization did before.

I often blame the management, but when i think deep i'm not sure if i should. I also don't think this team can win with Stastny and Duchene as your best players because often those two aren't the best players on the team.

If this team is gonna rely on PAP or Mitchell to win games instead of Duchene and Stastny then you know you're screwed.

When all this is set and done, in many many years of rebuilding and trying to put a winning team together again, i guarantee you this team is going to have a completely different roster, and it's not going to be Stastny and Duchene leading the way.

I'm just worried that it's going to be a very long time before Avs are a winning team again. There are just whole bunch of problems to be solved with this team, and it's not just going to take couple of years to fix this problems, it's going to be a long and tough road.


Edit: With the salary cap and all, it's not as easy signing FA's or making trades like before the cap. So the only way this team becomes successful again is by many years of finishing bottom and drafting high picks. This team needs at least couple of 1st overall picks. Teams like Pens and Hawks went through the same hard long years to build their team through drafts.


Last edited by the_fan: 02-07-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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02-07-2013, 02:26 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mant View Post
The key to getting this team on track is to acquire actual HOCKEY players. Replace the shaved apes that are currently on the roster with HOCKEY players, and we'll be good to go.
Agreed. Except Greg Zanon is more or less an unshaved ape.

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02-07-2013, 02:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Bottom line is, since Forsberg, Sakic, Roy days finished, the Avs don't feel confident about their current team.

They don't have enough confidence in Stastny and Duchene like they did in Sakic and Forsberg to start spending big money and surround them with other great players like this organization did before.

I often blame the management, but when i think deep i'm not sure if i should. I also don't think this team can win with Stastny and Duchene as your best players because often those two aren't the best players on the team.

If this team is gonna rely on PAP or Mitchell to win games instead of Duchene and Stastny then you know you're screwed.

When all this is set and done, in many many years of rebuilding and trying to put a winning team together again, i guarantee you this team is going to have a completely different roster, and it's not going to be Stastny and Duchene leading the way.

I'm just worried that it's going to be a very long time before Avs are a winning team again. There are just whole bunch of problems to be solved with this team, and it's not just going to take couple of years to fix this problems, it's going to be a long and tough road.


Edit: With the salary cap and all, it's not as easy signing FA's or making trades like before the cap. So the only way this team becomes successful again is by many years of finishing bottom and drafting high picks. This team needs at least couple of 1st overall picks. Teams like Pens and Hawks went through the same hard long years to build their team through drafts.
Have you watched or listened to anything Dutchy has said this year?

Stastny sure, but Duchene has bounced back in a big way. I'd be concerned if he was playing like he was last year, but he looks like a completely different player that's more mature and has a will to win.

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02-07-2013, 04:10 PM
  #57
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The problem is the Avs have some really good pieces, but Sherman failed to fill out the rest of the roster. I don't know if it was overrating the talent he thought he had here, but he really failed to improve beyond the impressive pieces on the roster. It reminds me of when I was younger and played any NHL dynasty mode. You trade all your depth for your favourite players, and then just sign a bunch of randoms to fill out the rest of the roster.

_____-Duchene-PAP
_____-Stastny-____
McGinn-O'Reilly-Downie

_______-Johnson

Varly

Is all the Avs really have on a consistent basis of being good players. Not a bad start, but Sherman just plugged the rest with bad players. I don't know if it is a Kroenke budget, or a Sherman accounting budget, but he needs to bring in some external talent.

Some teams who have done this in a quick re-build:
Florida- Took a "bad contract" in Campbell, and then signed a bunch of free agents last summer. Then they go on to make the playoffs. It's not like Sherman needs to go ballistic and sign 8 new guys, but he really should start looking to outside the organization for additional talent.

Tampa- They had ****** defencemen so they signed Salo, Ohlund, traded for Brewer, and signed Carle. All of a sudden, they have a pretty impressive team. Some of these contracts I wouldn't want burdening the Avs, but there is no doubt the defence has been turned around on that team. Also, they have a franchise defencemen in Hedman. So what do they do for him? They bring in a great veteran Swede, a great puckmover, and a great veteran. Hedman is now starting to break out.

Which is pretty much the opposite of what has happened in Colorado. The Avs made such a risky trade getting Johnson. Personally, I love it and would make the trade over and over and over. But Sherman shot himself in the foot after the deal. You get a young defencemen with all the tools and little confidence. So what does he do? Trade away the only other decent defenceman the Avs have, and leave EJ all on his own surrounded by 4/5/6's. This is kind of what Toronto did to Kessel. You bring in this great talent, and then you don't help him at all. On the bright side, EJ is 24 which is still incredibly young. Chicago didn't win the Cup till Seabrook/Keith were 25/27 in age. He has developed a great defensive game, for the most part, but may have lost his offensive creativity. There is no reason that playing with talent he won't put up 40+ points, but as other have alluded to, he is no Karlsson/Pietrangelo where he will do that without good support. I'm not really sure what to make of him. He is really one of the biggest keys going forward, but I'm not sure in which way. Whether that is as a player like Blake who is better offensively at the sacrifice of defence, or a player like Seabrook who is better with a good puck mover next to him. I'm thinking Seabrook personally. The Avs are 50% percent there to having a great top pairing.

The dead weight on the defense is so obvious. No need to go in depth here. Sherman made a big mistake piling up all the same type of player. Needs to clean house.

The good news here is that the we are already in February. Have very little to go in terms of season length (compared to a full season), and there seems to be a market for depth defenders. Were looking at a top pick come June, who could hopefully step in right away and make an impact. The deadline needs to be a sell off. If someone wants Jones/Hunwick/O'Brien, let them have them. Try and get a decent pick for O'Byrne. And if a team is really looking hard at Wilson/Hejda, then go for it.

Then Sherman needs to pull a Florida/Tampa and actually pick up multiple decent pieces in the free agent market. This obviously won't turn the Avs to a "great team." The only way that can happen is if the young talent that is here develops into great players. The easiest way to do that is get them some help. This is where free agency will help.
I love this depiction but yeah you forgot Landeskog, although even with him it seriously highlights the holes we have.

McGinn - Duchene - Parenteau

Landeskog - Stastny - _____

_____ - O'Reilly - Downie

McLeod - Mitchell/Olver - Kobasew/Bordy

Up front we need a legit top 6 winger and a third line winger. Even when we are healthy...

_____ - EJ

Varly
Jiggy

Now we have one young forward who could potentially fill that top 6 winger role, but hes primarily a center and has played LW. We need to AT LEAST trade one of Stastny or O'Reilly for a partner for EJ. Then pickup a third line center as a UFA.

McGinn - Duchene - Parenteau

Sgarbossa - Stastny/O'Reilly - Landeskog (Landeskog performed fine at RW when Olver was put on their line in the past, I don't think it matters which side hes on.)

__UFA__ - *Bozak* - Downie

Mcleod - Mitchell/Olver - Kobasew/Bordy

Yandle? - EJ

That would at LEAST be a start... It shouldn't be impossible to sign a good third line center and winger in free-agency. Puck moving defenders if free-agency are going to be ridiculous though. Look at what Carle got? He is NOT a #2 defender...

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02-07-2013, 08:16 PM
  #58
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Every Florida game I watch I get pissed at letting Mueller and Flash go. I've said it multiple times, but honestly I think letting both of them go was a huge blunder by Sherman and easily his worst move. Both gone for free and both are playing on the 1st PP for the Panthers.

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02-07-2013, 08:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
Every Florida game I watch I get pissed at letting Mueller and Flash go. I've said it multiple times, but honestly I think letting both of them go was a huge blunder by Sherman and easily his worst move. Both gone for free and both are playing on the 1st PP for the Panthers.
Outside of trading them earlier, Flash could not stay due to health, and I think Mueller was too big a risk for what he was asking $wise. I am still 50/50 about Mueller, but I think it was a good move to let him go.

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02-07-2013, 08:48 PM
  #60
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The answer to this thread is sign or trade for:

A top pairing defenseman and and top four defenseman.
Resign O'reilly and trade Stastny for a good asset, possibly one of the defenseman above.
Draft a good player in the top five this year(Drouin, Barkov, Jones, Mackinnon, ect.)

Once they address these issues this team can compete. If this team happens to draft someone like Barkov I think that also makes O'reilly expendable for another defenseman/winger.

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02-07-2013, 09:27 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Since his knee injury, Jones has been more or less a 100% one-trick pony: getting garbage goals around the net. And he's good at it - he positions himself well, he has some size/strength to hang there, and his hands aren't bad.

But the combination of the defensemen not getting pucks at the net, and Stastny looking more and more like Scott Gomez every day (massive plagiarism there, sorry E...z) is killing Jones' game. I'm not completely absolving Jones either, but if the Avs don't move the puck around the offensive zone and get it to the net with regularity, Jones is going to be relatively useless.
Agreed 100%

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02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #62
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No. That type of thinking is why this was so ****ed when Sherm the Werm got the job. The goal needs to be winning a cup as soon as possible and winning as many of them as possible. That takes a long term plan when you're building a team from scratch, and barring Staz and Duke's corpse, that's what we've had to do.
Your disagreement here is over semantics, not ideas. I was in no way suggesting that rebuilding does not or should not take time, but the #1 priority at any stage of the rebuild has to be moving the team closer to the Stanley Cup (which we are in agreement on). You can't make every team a Stanley Cup contender in one off season, but you can get every team closer. And I don't see that coming from this front office at all.

The Zanons and Hunwicks, those are treading water moves, not long term team building moves. Extending Sacco after missing the playoffs two years in a row, with very few players progressing in their development and some seemingly regressing, again, just smacks of a front office content with mediocrity.

Does anyone honestly detect a drive, a hunger to win another Stanley Cup from the decision makers on this team? What I see is a drive to assure the team doesn't lose money and a desire to take care of Lacroix's good ol' boys network, placed at a higher priority than developing young players. Where does the Stanley Cup fit into that?

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02-07-2013, 11:05 PM
  #63
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The same people mad at Sherman for passing on Mueller and Flash would be burning him in effigy if they had been re-signed and had gotten hurt again. He chose not to take the risk in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position and I have no issue there.

I love that for every one of us Stastny defenders there are 2 people that will blame him for everything including putting Sakic's hand in the snowblower. He's been just as good as Duchene over the past two games and he's been steadily getting better since his two goal game against Calgary. In fact until the line was broken up for whatever reason Staz-Duke-Mitchell was again our best looking line last night. I also love the idea that getting anything for him is a better idea than holding onto him.

And while I love how Dutchy has looked so far, lets get a sample size bigger than 10 games of a shortened season before we declare him a completely changed man. He looks the part of the man we need him to be but let's see if he can keep it going.

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02-07-2013, 11:12 PM
  #64
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Outside of trading them earlier, Flash could not stay due to health, and I think Mueller was too big a risk for what he was asking $wise. I am still 50/50 about Mueller, but I think it was a good move to let him go.
Flash's agent reported later on that there wasn't any health concerns after the treatments, and he could've played for the Avs. They just didn't offer him anything. I'll give the Avs some leniency on this, but if they talked to Flash or the agent they could've told him he could've stayed.

As for Mueller being too big of a risk, what ****ing risk? We're nowhere near the cap, and it's plain to see that Mueller would've signed a 1 year contract with the Avs. He would've respected that we stuck with him during his concussion, I don't see why he would sign a 1 yr with Florida and not the Avs. If he couldn't play or didn't regain his form, then you can let him go. But letting him go the year he could finally be healthy is unacceptable.

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02-07-2013, 11:14 PM
  #65
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Why are people still complaining about Mueller? It's not like the Avs just ignored his position on the team. They went out and got Parenteau, whose been doing his job and isn't a major health risk.

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02-08-2013, 12:08 AM
  #66
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Why are people still complaining about Mueller? It's not like the Avs just ignored his position on the team. They went out and got Parenteau, whose been doing his job and isn't a major health risk.
No, but it's pretty obvious we're still lacking winger skill/depth. People always say we got PAP to replace Mueller, and he's done a fine job at that. But with Duke gone next year, Jones being inconsistent, and not knowing what McGinn will be, theres no reason to not resign Mueller.

Even if our team was fully healthy/signed, it could've been:

Mueller - Duchene - PAP
Landeskog - Staz/RoR - Downie
McGinn - Staz/RoR - Jones
Mcleod - Mitchell - Duke

Bordeleau
Olver

It's not like Mueller wouldn't have had a slot. If he wasn't healthy Duke slides up and we eat up a 1.7 mil cap hit. Damn, that's gonna break the bank. As for the disrupting chemistry argument, our team juggles the lines enough that it doesn't even make a difference.

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02-08-2013, 02:09 AM
  #67
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The same people mad at Sherman for passing on Mueller and Flash would be burning him in effigy if they had been re-signed and had gotten hurt again. He chose not to take the risk in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position and I have no issue there.

I love that for every one of us Stastny defenders there are 2 people that will blame him for everything including putting Sakic's hand in the snowblower. He's been just as good as Duchene over the past two games and he's been steadily getting better since his two goal game against Calgary. In fact until the line was broken up for whatever reason Staz-Duke-Mitchell was again our best looking line last night. I also love the idea that getting anything for him is a better idea than holding onto him.

And while I love how Dutchy has looked so far, lets get a sample size bigger than 10 games of a shortened season before we declare him a completely changed man. He looks the part of the man we need him to be but let's see if he can keep it going.
Agreed. I may have to change my headline from last year from "Duchene Apologist" to "Stastny Apologist." The hate for him is so ridiculous it's not even funny.

As for Dutchy, I think this is the direct result of him working harder in the offseason and coming into the season in the best shape of his life. He worked with Crosby's trainer, a guy who emphasizes core strength, and I think you can tell he's much harder to knock off the puck than he was last year. But yes, we'll see if he can keep it up. I will give him credit with taking up a leadership role both on and off the ice in the wake of this piss-poor start and the O'Reilly situation, since all the Avs brass wants to do is hide.

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02-08-2013, 07:25 AM
  #68
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Jones deserves a lot of criticism no doubt, but I think a lot of his struggles are due to the fact that his bum knee is taking away the one thing that makes him effective--his speed. I'm not at all ready to throw the towel in on him. Like it or not he's not showing us anything new that he hasn't done before.
Yep. Avs should have though about it more before they signed him.

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02-08-2013, 09:59 AM
  #69
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Flash's agent reported later on that there wasn't any health concerns after the treatments, and he could've played for the Avs. They just didn't offer him anything. I'll give the Avs some leniency on this, but if they talked to Flash or the agent they could've told him he could've stayed.
I don't believe for a single second that health concerns had anything to do with the Avs not re-signing Flash.

It was money. Period, end of story.

IMO.

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02-08-2013, 11:11 AM
  #70
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Your disagreement here is over semantics, not ideas. I was in no way suggesting that rebuilding does not or should not take time, but the #1 priority at any stage of the rebuild has to be moving the team closer to the Stanley Cup (which we are in agreement on). You can't make every team a Stanley Cup contender in one off season, but you can get every team closer. And I don't see that coming from this front office at all.

The Zanons and Hunwicks, those are treading water moves, not long term team building moves. Extending Sacco after missing the playoffs two years in a row, with very few players progressing in their development and some seemingly regressing, again, just smacks of a front office content with mediocrity.

Does anyone honestly detect a drive, a hunger to win another Stanley Cup from the decision makers on this team? What I see is a drive to assure the team doesn't lose money and a desire to take care of Lacroix's good ol' boys network, placed at a higher priority than developing young players. Where does the Stanley Cup fit into that?
This team isn't ready to push for the cup. They don't have a coach good enough to take a team that far, and the best players are still mostly too young to drag a team there. That's why right now the thing to get to a cup faster is to give them some proven NHLers to play with while they grow, and keep your options open to plug the remaining holes on this roster.

That's what Sherm's done, he's gone out and acquired 1 top pairing dman already, a franchise goalie, and found wingers for our 3 centers. Now injuries and booziness have wiped out that winger depth, but Sherm is still adding cornerpieces to a championship team, and trying to surround them with solid NHLers that they can continue growing alongside. The defense is terrible, and not finding a suitable partner for EJ has been his biggest shortcoming so far, but he's trying to do this without handicapping this team when Landy, Dutchy, Varly, EJ and ROR come into their primes, so I'm okay with him not pulling a calgary and signing Widemen.

The only real problem I have with the team is the coach. Otherwise I absolutely think this is a team putting together the pieces to win some cups.

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02-08-2013, 11:51 AM
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Your disagreement here is over semantics, not ideas. I was in no way suggesting that rebuilding does not or should not take time, but the #1 priority at any stage of the rebuild has to be moving the team closer to the Stanley Cup (which we are in agreement on). You can't make every team a Stanley Cup contender in one off season, but you can get every team closer. And I don't see that coming from this front office at all.

The Zanons and Hunwicks, those are treading water moves, not long term team building moves. Extending Sacco after missing the playoffs two years in a row, with very few players progressing in their development and some seemingly regressing, again, just smacks of a front office content with mediocrity.

Does anyone honestly detect a drive, a hunger to win another Stanley Cup from the decision makers on this team? What I see is a drive to assure the team doesn't lose money and a desire to take care of Lacroix's good ol' boys network, placed at a higher priority than developing young players. Where does the Stanley Cup fit into that?
Well put. You could add that not a single one, from the prez. to the coach would be working at the NHL level if not employed by the Avs.

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02-08-2013, 12:30 PM
  #72
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- Sacco, + new coach
+ Full time goalie coach
+ 2 top line wingers
+ Re-sign O'Reilly
+ 3 Top 4 D
+ Backup goalie who can move from side to side

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02-08-2013, 12:34 PM
  #73
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- Sacco, + new coach
+ Full time goalie coach
+ 2 top line wingers
+ Re-sign O'Reilly
+ 3 Top 4 D
+ Backup goalie who can move from side to side
Why do we need a full time goalie coach? What has McLean done with Varly/Giggy that you don't like?

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02-08-2013, 12:54 PM
  #74
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This team isn't ready to push for the cup. They don't have a coach good enough to take a team that far, and the best players are still mostly too young to drag a team there. That's why right now the thing to get to a cup faster is to give them some proven NHLers to play with while they grow, and keep your options open to plug the remaining holes on this roster.

That's what Sherm's done, he's gone out and acquired 1 top pairing dman already, a franchise goalie, and found wingers for our 3 centers. Now injuries and booziness have wiped out that winger depth, but Sherm is still adding cornerpieces to a championship team, and trying to surround them with solid NHLers that they can continue growing alongside. The defense is terrible, and not finding a suitable partner for EJ has been his biggest shortcoming so far, but he's trying to do this without handicapping this team when Landy, Dutchy, Varly, EJ and ROR come into their primes, so I'm okay with him not pulling a calgary and signing Widemen.

The only real problem I have with the team is the coach. Otherwise I absolutely think this is a team putting together the pieces to win some cups.
Great post. Landy, Dutchy, ROR, Varly, EJ and even pieces like Downie, Mcgin, and Parenteau are good pieces even for competitive teams.

The most important thing for this team atm in my oppinion is to deal with ROR. I could see a competitve team running with Dutchy and ROR down the middle. That would be great center depth. This team desperately needs a top pairing and middle pairing defenceman though.

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02-13-2013, 02:50 PM
  #75
Pirate Deadpool
Sacco must go
 
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Country: United States
Posts: 2,172
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New ownership. Everything else as in a new GM and head coach as well as spending money on quality free agents will follow suit once there's a new owner. But I see kroenke keeping this team and letting it rot every year just to collect some extra cash on nights that the nuggs aren't playing.

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