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02-08-2013, 09:04 AM
  #1
koth
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Claude Noel

So we are into season 2 now, and the Jets don't seem to be much improved from last year, and last year they didn't seem to be much improved from the year before. I'm wondering if this is because of the players, or because of the coach.

I love Claude Noel as our Jets coach, but I wonder how much time management is going to give him to turn this team into a playoff team. Right now, they certainly don't play like a playoff team.

We brough in some new veteran leadership and some new size, but I'm not seeing an improvement over last year's Jets.

I guess you can chalk it up to the loss of Byfuglien and Bogosian, but Bogosian wasn't there for the great wins against Pittsburgh nor the overtime loss against Boston, where the Jets played great without him. Byfuglien is a large part of the team, but him not being in the lineup shouldn't cause the other guys on the roster to stop trying.

I don't want to see Claude Noel get fired, but what will it take, before management decides they need someone else in that position?

Just to clarify, I don't think Claude Noel SHOULD be fired, I'm just wondering if he WILL be fired.

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02-08-2013, 09:11 AM
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Hank Chinaski
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Purely IMO and nothing more, I think he'll be on the hot seat if he doesn't get this team to the playoffs by next season.

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02-08-2013, 09:12 AM
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I don't want to see him get fired either, but... here I quote myself from the latest loss thread because it is pertinent to this thread:

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Originally Posted by Prot View Post
Most of my frustration is not in the personnel but in coaching.... Doing the same thing over, and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. This team defines insanity.

Half of you guys want to kick half the team away. I strongly feel that a lot of them would come back to haunt us on a really well coached team with an actual system that doesn't resemble a chicken with its head cut off running circles in a ditch.

That being said it's easy for me to say get rid of 'X' and move player 'Y'.... I still think we have fundamental issues that would take a phenomenal amount of talent to hide effectively.

I think Noel is a smart man and I applaud some of the unorthodox things he has said, and done that have decent results. But it's like his message doesn't make it through to the team, or his message is simply bad.... or ineffective.
To answer your question, no he won't get fired imo. This organization has a history of staying with coaches for a loooong time.

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02-08-2013, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koth View Post
So we are into season 2 now, and the Jets don't seem to be much improved from last year, and last year they didn't seem to be much improved from the year before. I'm wondering if this is because of the players, or because of the coach.

I love Claude Noel as our Jets coach, but I wonder how much time management is going to give him to turn this team into a playoff team. Right now, they certainly don't play like a playoff team.

We brough in some new veteran leadership and some new size, but I'm not seeing an improvement over last year's Jets.

I guess you can chalk it up to the loss of Byfuglien and Bogosian, but Bogosian wasn't there for the great wins against Pittsburgh nor the overtime loss against Boston, where the Jets played great without him. Byfuglien is a large part of the team, but him not being in the lineup shouldn't cause the other guys on the roster to stop trying.

I don't want to see Claude Noel get fired, but what will it take, before management decides they need someone else in that position?

Just to clarify, I don't think Claude Noel SHOULD be fired, I'm just wondering if he WILL be fired.
No. True North is stubbornly loyal to people they consider to be theirs.

Aside from that, I still feel it's a bit too early to tell. So long as we finish withing a few spots Noel will keep his job. If this season totally crashes and burns (no pun intended) then management would be more likely to consider replacement... if there's no progress by the end of Season 3 I think we'll see his exit then.

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02-08-2013, 09:20 AM
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jamiebez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prot View Post
To answer your question, no he won't get fired imo. This organization has a history of staying with coaches for a loooong time.
This is a good point.

But looking at it rationally, Chevy went out and improved the personnel in the off-season, and hired another assistant. So far we're getting the same results. In a less patient organization, you'd look at making a coaching change. And GMs only get one or two of those before they're out the door

Not advocating for firing anyone at this point, but if there's another dismal season and Chevy does pull the trigger, I'd prefer he does it this off-season rather than during season 3.

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02-08-2013, 09:21 AM
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Hank Chinaski
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Just to add as well, I think the whole idea that TNSE will be ultra-loyal to Noel might be a little bit of a fallacy.

Yes, it's true they barely changed coaches in their Moose days, but it's really not analogous. The Moose missed they playoffs what, twice in their entire existence? And one of those was the gong show first year with Jean Perron as head coach. Not to mention the coaches they employed were top notch for the AHL level.

I like Noel and feel confident with him going forward, but I don't think his job security is appreciably greater than any NHL coach.

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02-08-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Just to add as well, I think the whole idea that TNSE will be ultra-loyal to Noel might be a little bit of a fallacy.

Yes, it's true they barely changed coaches in their Moose days, but it's really not analogous. The Moose missed they playoffs what, twice in their entire existence? And one of those was the gong show first year with Jean Perron as head coach. Not to mention the coaches they employed were top notch for the AHL level.

I like Noel and feel confident with him going forward, but I don't think his job security is appreciably greater than any NHL coach.
Even at that, it's not like they rocked one coach for years on end. They had Scott Arniel(I think), Randy Carlyle, Stan Smyl, and Alain Vigneault, I'm sure they had more once AV went up to the big club.

I think if Noel isn't gettin results that they want, he'll be out the door.

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02-08-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Just to add as well, I think the whole idea that TNSE will be ultra-loyal to Noel might be a little bit of a fallacy.

Yes, it's true they barely changed coaches in their Moose days, but it's really not analogous. The Moose missed they playoffs what, twice in their entire existence? And one of those was the gong show first year with Jean Perron as head coach. Not to mention the coaches they employed were top notch for the AHL level.

I like Noel and feel confident with him going forward, but I don't think his job security is appreciably greater than any NHL coach.
This is true also, however it doesn't -disprove- that they are ultra coach loyal.

It's kind of moot though... we don't know if they think Noel is doing poorly or not. They wouldn't admit it if they did... I think the bigger question here might be; is the organization happy with him?

I like what Dale Hunter did with the Caps (which are now falling on hard times). I like that Dale has a system, and players MUST play within that system or they sit... Ovechkin all the way down... no one is immune. I would have tried hard to convince him to second guess retirement.

Hunter took a team that was fairly loose (IE: Jets street hockey style) and forced a defensive system down their throats. I see a very similar solution would be applicable here where I believe in our core player base, but not the methodology steering the talent.

Hypothetically, in an alternate universe where we have Paul Maclean (I also like his coaching system), and Ottawa has Claude, where would those respective teams be now?

Just some things I ponder from time to time.

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02-08-2013, 09:59 AM
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I definitely think that the Jets are not expecting PO this season. It'd be nice, but in their mind I don't think they're super concerned about it.

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02-08-2013, 10:01 AM
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Prot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I definitely think that the Jets are not expecting PO this season. It'd be nice, but in their mind I don't think they're super concerned about it.
Really? I do. I think it is THE focus of the franchise right now. (Not the cup, but making the playoffs).

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02-08-2013, 10:26 AM
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JMO, but the thing to remember before firing the coach and the GM, is that this team is still the Atlanta Thrashers. TNSE bought a team that was specifically built to cost the least amount that it could and still stay within the rules. ASG didn't want the Thrashers, so they rushed players before they were ready because they were cheaper to have in the lineup. If it wasn't for the salary cap having a floor, ASG would have had nothing but AHL players playing in Atlanta.

As a STH I am on a 4 year contract. When that contract is up, I will at that time decide if this team is worth investing anymore money in. They don't have to win the Cup, but I want to see some improvements over the next 3 seasons.

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02-08-2013, 10:30 AM
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My guess, if we go three seasons without a playoff spot, in the fourth season, if we start off slow that will be the end IMO.

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02-08-2013, 10:32 AM
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cheswick
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I persoanlly see the Jets issues as a depth problem more than a coaching problem.
Enstrom, Hainsey, Stuart, Clitsome, Postma, Redmond is far from an elite defence lineup.

3 of our 5 losses have happened with those guys in. We'll see how good the team is once Buff and Bogo are in the lineup.

Its a lot to ask of a coach to make the playoffs with the team that we currently have.

Before last season lots of people were ready to give up on Bogosian. Lots already had given up on Wheeler. Noel has improved the play of some players. Which players have regressed since Noel took over? I can't really think of any.

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02-08-2013, 10:34 AM
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I agree that if Noel isn't showing the results by next season, I'm not sure I would see the point in going much further with him. Not to mention, you can only go so far with the same voice preaching to the same core, and if you're not getting results in 3 years, it's possible you never will. With that being said, I want to see what Noel can do with a healthy Jets roster today, because in my own opinion anyway, this team is a 7-8 playoff team on paper, or a team with that potential anyhow. I want to see these coaches tap into that potential and get these guys to play at their maximum abilities.

What worries me was Lawless saying the other night that Noel may get his contract extended past next season "this season". Way to early to do that. I understand wanting a stable hockey operations, that's great, I believe in that, but I also believe in results and Noel should be able to get them with this roster - again though, I want to see it healthy.


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02-08-2013, 10:40 AM
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little to no chance he is fired after this season.

Next season however, if there is no playoffs, or AT LEAST a tangible improved of this team... He could be gone.

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02-08-2013, 10:50 AM
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The coaching is fine, we just need another 403 years of slowly building this team into a winner with waiver wire pick-ups and Calgary Flames / Columbus Blue Jackets cast offs.

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02-08-2013, 10:53 AM
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Too early to tell.
I have trouble blaming him when he's missing Bogo and now Buff. You take 2 of any teams top 3 dmen and they'll struggle. AFAIC Postma and Clitsome are not NHL players ad they're logging big minutes.
I think if we're not a playoff team by year 4 he's gone.

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02-08-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
The coaching is fine, we just need another 403 years of slowly building this team into a winner with waiver wire pick-ups and Calgary Flames / Columbus Blue Jackets cast offs.
This guy's right. Cheveldayoff is the one who should be on the hot seat for not signing Richards, Parise, Weber, and for not swindling a few GMs out of their superstars for our junk. After all, everyone else is doing it, why can't we? And, for having the NERVE to make waiver claims! Doesn't he know that only big splashy moves help teams??

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02-08-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Purely IMO and nothing more, I think he'll be on the hot seat if he doesn't get this team to the playoffs by next season.
After three failed seasons you mean?

Missing the playoffs for three consecutive should put you on the hot seat imo.

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02-08-2013, 11:09 AM
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You have to realize Claude Noel didn't implement much of a system last year, which I don't blame him for. Now this year we have a shortened training camp and no pre-season games. For years Atlanta played with very little systems.

That being said these last two games have been very much systems oriented. The problem is the system is too predictable now. We almost always give them room in their zone and do a passive 1-2-2 forecheck, if you can even call it a forecheck. The results are positive, because we've limited shots on goal these past few games, we've never done that before.

We lost last game due to defensive breakdowns. Guys weren't covering their man, or loading up one side of the ice. This isn't the coaches fault at all. Pavs could've had at least one of those goals. The reality is he's made one "good" save all year that I can recall.

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02-08-2013, 11:18 AM
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Gil Fisher
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
I persoanlly see the Jets issues as a depth problem more than a coaching problem.
Enstrom, Hainsey, Stuart, Clitsome, Postma, Redmond is far from an elite defence lineup.
Show me a team with good #7 and #8 defensemen? Better than Redmond/Postma. Any team that loses their best two defensemen is going to suffer a lot on the back end. The depth issue is overblown.

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02-08-2013, 11:32 AM
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koth
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I don't think depth is the issues with us right now. The players aren't playing to their potential. I've seen better efforts out of them than what we are currently getting. Is that the player's fault? Or the coach's fault for not getting the best out of his players?

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02-08-2013, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
This guy's right. Cheveldayoff is the one who should be on the hot seat for not signing Richards, Parise, Weber, and for not swindling a few GMs out of their superstars for our junk. After all, everyone else is doing it, why can't we? And, for having the NERVE to make waiver claims! Doesn't he know that only big splashy moves help teams??
Easy now, Donald. I was just being light-hearted, and was in no way implying we should be making idiotic moves like the Parise/Suter signing.

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02-08-2013, 11:49 AM
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Warhead77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
This guy's right. Cheveldayoff is the one who should be on the hot seat for not signing Richards, Parise, Weber, and for not swindling a few GMs out of their superstars for our junk. After all, everyone else is doing it, why can't we? And, for having the NERVE to make waiver claims! Doesn't he know that only big splashy moves help teams??
No, no, no.

Afterall, we are trying to model our team build after the Nashville Predators. You know, the team that has won all those cups.

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02-08-2013, 11:54 AM
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No, no, no.

Afterall, we are trying to model our team build after the Nashville Predators. You know, the team that has won all those cups.
or we could model ourselves as spenders like the leafs and habs and win cups like they do

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