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Leafs need a #1 center

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Old
02-08-2013, 09:37 AM
  #76
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Nothings a sure thing. But keeping our current players essentially guarantees us no franchise players, whereas if we sell them, we increase our chances of getting a franchise player (or two). Right now Rielly is the only guy in the organization who looks like he might have that kind of upside.
I couldn't care less if we had a "franchise player". I just want a solid group of players who perform. And by the way, get a center better than Bozak....and Kessel IS your franchise player.

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02-08-2013, 09:45 AM
  #77
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Just curious can Toronto even afford Getzlaf? From what I remember they are close to the cap. Getzlaf is not signing any less than 8 million. Even at 8 million Toronto will need to work him into the salary cap.

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02-08-2013, 09:46 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I couldn't care less if we had a "franchise player". I just want a solid group of players who perform. And by the way, get a center better than Bozak....and Kessel IS your franchise player.
I've never seen a team win a Cup with a player of Kessels calibre as the franchise player and I've never seen a team win a Cup based off of a "solid group" but no legitimate franchise players.

I would take any and all of the following players over Kessel (ignoring age as a factor, just talking about in a single Cup run):

LA: Quick, Doughty, and Kopitar
Boston: Thomas, Chara, and Bergeron
Chicago: Toews, Hossa, and Keith
Pittsburgh: Crosby and Malkin
Detroit: Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg
Anaheim: Pronger, Niedermayer, Giguere (at the time)
Carolina: E. Staal, Brind'Amour
TB: Lecavalier, St. Louis, B. Richards
etc
etc

Wingers aren't worth squat to build around compared to centres/goalies/D. One-dimensional players aren't worth squat compared to elite all around players to build around.

Would you want to build around Alex Semin as your franchise guy (ignoring injury issues and assuming he was playing at his previous ~PPG level)? Because Semin is a very very comparable player to Kessel in terms of style of play / production historically.

So maybe you don't care about getting a "franchise player", but I guess you also don't care about actually winning anything then.

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02-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #79
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Leafs could try going for Couturier...Philly already has Giroux and Briere down the middle, I'm sure they can use some of TML's pieces

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02-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #80
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Just curious can Toronto even afford Getzlaf? From what I remember they are close to the cap. Getzlaf is not signing any less than 8 million. Even at 8 million Toronto will need to work him into the salary cap.
Torontos 17M below the projected cap next season, about 6.5M below the current cap.

In saying that, I highly highly doubt Getzlaf comes here. There's really no reason to expect it. He apparently likes it in Anaheim, his wife is from there, he's from Western Canada so if he wants to leave the home-town bias wouldn't even be Toronto, and then Torontos a bad team that hasn't landed a UFA of his calibre in almost 10 years.

The only connection is Carlyle, but I'm not expecting that to get us Getzlaf (or Perry).

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02-08-2013, 09:50 AM
  #81
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Just curious can Toronto even afford Getzlaf? From what I remember they are close to the cap. Getzlaf is not signing any less than 8 million. Even at 8 million Toronto will need to work him into the salary cap.
Look closer.

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02-08-2013, 09:51 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
obviously
amongst other things

the points being:
- is there a team out there willing to trade one (esp if they feel they have more than one)
- what would the team ask for in return
- preferably players not 1st rounders
- and preferably no one in this group (if so then likely more is involved coming back)

lupul -------- kessel
jvr kadri frattin
--- --- ---

gardiner phaneuf
reilly -----
--- -----

reimer
----
The Leafs not having a #1 center is not what is holding them back one bit. You've also posted this in the Leafs forum as well.

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02-08-2013, 09:55 AM
  #83
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Sorry, that was rude


Toronto has about $47M committed next year and needs to re-sign Kadri, Komarov, Gunnarsson and Bozak (who they won't if they sign getzlaf). I imagine Macarthur wont be brought back either.

They will also surely use their amnesty on Komisarek.... which is $4.5M cap right there.

Lets even say Komisareks amnesty offsets Kadri + Komarov + Gunnar or thereabouts. They will be at $47M-49 or so then.... they could probably afford Geztlaf AND Perry if they wanted.

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02-08-2013, 10:03 AM
  #84
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
I've never seen a team win a Cup with a player of Kessels calibre as the franchise player and I've never seen a team win a Cup based off of a "solid group" but no legitimate franchise players.

I would take any and all of the following players over Kessel (ignoring age as a factor, just talking about in a single Cup run):

LA: Quick, Doughty, and Kopitar
Boston: Thomas, Chara, and Bergeron
Chicago: Toews, Hossa, and Keith
Pittsburgh: Crosby and Malkin
Detroit: Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg
Anaheim: Pronger, Niedermayer, Giguere (at the time)
Carolina: E. Staal, Brind'Amour
TB: Lecavalier, St. Louis, B. Richards
etc
etc

Wingers aren't worth squat to build around compared to centres/goalies/D. One-dimensional players aren't worth squat compared to elite all around players to build around.

Would you want to build around Alex Semin as your franchise guy (ignoring injury issues and assuming he was playing at his previous ~PPG level)? Because Semin is a very very comparable player to Kessel in terms of style of play / production historically.

So maybe you don't care about getting a "franchise player", but I guess you also don't care about actually winning anything then.
This is an interesting quote from a guy who wants to LOSE enough games to draft the next big thing. My good man, i was watching playoff games in Maple Leaf Gardens in 1967....you know....the cup year? That team was quoted as being to old and not good enough. We had ZERO superstars....Hell of a hard working team though.

You guys can bash on me all you like....but to those fans wishing to lose....cheering to lose....hoping to tank.....maybe you should pick another hobby.

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02-08-2013, 10:10 AM
  #85
416Leafer
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
This is an interesting quote from a guy who wants to LOSE enough games to draft the next big thing. My good man, i was watching playoff games in Maple Leaf Gardens in 1967....you know....the cup year? That team was quoted as being to old and not good enough. We had ZERO superstars....Hell of a hard working team though.

You guys can bash on me all you like....but to those fans wishing to lose....cheering to lose....hoping to tank.....maybe you should pick another hobby.
Lol good refute. Instead of going through the logical layout of my argument and saying why you think Kessel + slight upgrade over Bozak can compete against the best of the best, you simply say a bunch of crap about liking to lose and making personal attacks instead of attacking the argument itself.

No, I don't like to lose. That's why I want the team to actually be built into a winner, instead of spinning it's tires in the bottom 15 year after year after year. I want the team to be built around complete players, not one-dimensional players.

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02-08-2013, 10:16 AM
  #86
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Lol good refute. Instead of going through the logical layout of my argument and saying why you think Kessel + slight upgrade over Bozak can compete against the best of the best, you simply say a bunch of crap about liking to lose and making personal attacks instead of attacking the argument itself.

No, I don't like to lose. That's why I want the team to actually be built into a winner, instead of spinning it's tires in the bottom 15 year after year after year. I want the team to be built around complete players, not one-dimensional players.
Care to point out were i said this? All i said was, get a better center, and Kessel can be a "franchise" player. Please explain "one dimensional" to me will ya? Does Kessel throw big hits...no, does Crosby? Is Kessel a "floater"....maybe, what's Ovechkin? Tell me this, what trade do you make that replaces Kessel's production?

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02-08-2013, 10:24 AM
  #87
416Leafer
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Care to point out were i said this? All i said was, get a better center, and Kessel can be a "franchise" player. Please explain "one dimensional" to me will ya? Does Kessel throw big hits...no, does Crosby? Is Kessel a "floater"....maybe, what's Ovechkin? Tell me this, what trade do you make that replaces Kessel's production?
Did LA have any PPG wingers? Did Detroit? Pittsburgh? Carolina? Boston?

PPG wingers, especially floaters who aren't strong defensively, don't show up as a trend when you're looking at the make-up of SC teams.

Wanna know what they did all have though? They all had somebody who has won or been nominated for the Selke. Richards, Bergeron, Toews, Staal, Datsyuk, Pahlsson, Brind'Amour. That's a pretty strong continuous trend. They also all had better centres than we had, and either a far better #1 D, better goaltending, or both.

And really, you're comparing Crosby to Kessel for the other aspects of the game? Crosby doesn't necessarily throw big hits, but he can still work the corners, go down low, crash the net, etc. And he's much better defensively than Kessel is. OH, not to mention completely outpaces him offensively as well. Really? You're comparing Kessel to Crosby?

And what exactly has Ovechkin won? Where does he come into the conversation? That's a team that gets criticized for being one-dimensional that's weak on D, relatively weak down the middle after Backstrom, and weak in goal, and how has that gone for them?

As for replacing his production. The year before he got here, we had 250 goals... The years he's been here? 214, 218, and 231.... So we've actually had HIGHER production in the previous years. Winning is a team game. Scoring goals and preventing goals is a team game. I'm not the least bit worried about replacing his production or about our longterm wingers without him in the lineup.

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02-08-2013, 10:35 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Did LA have any PPG wingers? Did Detroit? Pittsburgh? Carolina? Boston?

PPG wingers, especially floaters who aren't strong defensively, don't show up as a trend when you're looking at the make-up of SC teams.

Wanna know what they did all have though? They all had somebody who has won or been nominated for the Selke. Richards, Bergeron, Toews, Staal, Datsyuk, Pahlsson, Brind'Amour. That's a pretty strong continuous trend. They also all had better centres than we had, and either a far better #1 D, better goaltending, or both.

And really, you're comparing Crosby to Kessel for the other aspects of the game? Crosby doesn't necessarily throw big hits, but he can still work the corners, go down low, crash the net, etc. And he's much better defensively than Kessel is. OH, not to mention completely outpaces him offensively as well. Really? You're comparing Kessel to Crosby?

And what exactly has Ovechkin won? Where does he come into the conversation? That's a team that gets criticized for being one-dimensional that's weak on D, relatively weak down the middle after Backstrom, and weak in goal, and how has that gone for them?

As for replacing his production. The year before he got here, we had 250 goals... The years he's been here? 214, 218, and 231.... So we've actually had HIGHER production in the previous years. Winning is a team game. Scoring goals and preventing goals is a team game. I'm not the least bit worried about replacing his production or about our longterm wingers without him in the lineup.
OK, you win. Lets trade Kessel, Phaneuf, Kadri, Frattin, JVR, Gardiner, Liles...am i missing anyone? Then we can start Scrivens in net....and if he wins, we'll call up Rynaas. That should ensure enough losses to achieve your goal...right. Then, we can start a whole team of monkeys next year and grab the golden draft pick again!!!

To Hell with winning!!! To draft high is the only goal!!!

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02-08-2013, 10:40 AM
  #89
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OK, you win. Lets trade Kessel, Phaneuf, Kadri, Frattin, JVR, Gardiner, Liles...am i missing anyone? Then we can start Scrivens in net....and if he wins, we'll call up Rynaas. That should ensure enough losses to achieve your goal...right. Then, we can start a whole team of monkeys next year and grab the golden draft pick again!!!

To Hell with winning!!! To draft high is the only goal!!!
Nope, never said to trade those guys. I've actually argued that we should keep Phaneuf because big physical top pairing D are hard to come by, even if he's not a legitimate #1. Kessels just a guy who has the most trade value on the team, and who isn't the style of player that actually helps you win. In other words, he's the type of player who's overrated and his trade value can be worth more than his actual value.

Good discussing hockey with you, even though it's been a one-sided legitimate conversation, and another one-sided make-stuff-up / attack the person not the argument / just random pointless tangents conversation. It'd be really interesting to see you discussing something with someone who acts/argues the way you do.

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02-08-2013, 10:43 AM
  #90
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Nope, never said to trade those guys. I've actually argued that we should keep Phaneuf because big physical top pairing D are hard to come by, even if he's not a legitimate #1. Kessels just a guy who has the most trade value on the team, and who isn't the style of player that actually helps you win. In other words, he's the type of player who's overrated and his trade value can be worth more than his actual value.

Good discussing hockey with you, even though it's been a one-sided legitimate conversation, and another one-sided make-stuff-up / attack the person not the argument / just random pointless tangents.
Because it's absolutely laughable to say a PPG player can't help you win. Again, i ask, what do you trade Kessel for? Picks? Who? Explain what a Kessel trade will do for this team? A #1C...nope, a 1G...what...,Luongo? A 1st round pick from a contender?

You want to make your argument legitimate...tell me a deal that improves the Leafs.


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