HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Why didn't Messier work out for the Canucks?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-08-2013, 11:18 AM
  #51
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
The Canucks did steer themselves in the right direction by Messier's final season, bringing in Andrew Cassels as the team's top centerman; Cassels scored more points that year (62) than Messier had in any of his three years in Vancouver. Cassels, meanwhile, was a +8 that year while Messier was last in the team's +/- rankings with a -15. Brendan Morrison contributed 9 points in his 12 games with Vancouver that year as well, helping the team at center during the final stretch of the season. If anything can be attributed to the Canucks nearly reaching the playoffs that year, it's the gradual improvement of the team's young players, as well as the acquisition of Cassels. Messier often dragged down the team's top line and was more suited to play a lesser position.
And yet in the 16 games Messier missed (the only reason Cassels outscored him, by the way), the team went 3-9-4, and Cassels posted inferior point and plus-minus numbers than he would get in the 66 games Messier was there. So, I don't think he was hurting the team, even if neither he nor Cassels should have been #1 centers.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 11:42 AM
  #52
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And yet in the 16 games Messier missed (the only reason Cassels outscored him, by the way), the team went 3-9-4, and Cassels posted inferior point and plus-minus numbers than he would get in the 66 games Messier was there. So, I don't think he was hurting the team, even if neither he nor Cassels should have been #1 centers.
team with a poisonous locker room and poor sense of playing for each other with cassels and 39 year old messier as your top two centers >>> team with a poisonous locker room and poor sense of playing for each other with cassels and harry york as your top two centers

but the first one still sucks

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 04:48 PM
  #53
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Haha. Maybe those not old enough to have lived through the 70s and 80s.
Those would be the "stone ages" of Canucks history.

JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 05:20 PM
  #54
Passchendaele
Registered User
 
Passchendaele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Laval, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,417
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ohh, I remember something like this. Anyone have the exact stats?

I also remember he seemed like something of a shell of himself in the 1997 playoffs. Those Rangers upset the Devils because of Mike Richter, Wayne Gretzky, and Devils coach Jacques Lemaire getting caught with his pants down and unable to adjust to the Rangers counter-trapping the trapping Devils.* Messier wasn't the dominating force that he usually was, especially in the playoffs.

*Edit and the fact that Bill Guerin and Steve Thomas couldn't keep their freaking skates out of the crease, when that stupid rule was in effect.
First 50 games: 32 goals, 32 assists.
Following 21 regular season games: 4 goals, 16 assists.

Passchendaele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 05:31 PM
  #55
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
to me the canucks' dark ages are everything between the opening of GM place (the failed mogilny + bure experiment) and when luongo came over (which also coincides with the sedins taking over as the go-to scorers from naslund). but those of you who follow my posts probably all know how i feel about the nastuzzi era.
My opinion of the "dark ages" is a bit different from yours, I suppose. Though the Sedin line was only decent during the years between 2000-2004, the top line was dominant, becoming one of the most dynamic lines in the NHL during the early 2000s. The bottom six consisting of such players as Cooke, Linden, May, and Ruutu brought grit and character to the team, and the team's defense consisted of Ohlund, Jovanovski, Salo, Sopel, amongst others. The team consistently battled fiercely with their rivals, some of the NHL's top teams: Colorado Avalanche, Calgary Flames, and the Ottawa Senators, for example. This was, in my opinion, a tremendous era in the team's history, held back only by Brian Burke's struggle to find an adequate goaltender.

I would argue the first few years with Roberto Luongo were not as great as one might recall. Though Luongo played excellent and proved he could steal games all season (in his first year), the lineup lacked offense. Alain Vigneault's decision to implement a defensive dump-and-chase system did not bode well for the team's veterans from the previous era, and Markus Naslund's production declined as a result of having lost his confidence and his license to play offensively and creatively. The Canucks were actively looking for winger for the Sedins (until they settled on using Pyatt there), and the second line of Naslund-Morrison-Bulis/Cooke was not a success. Most games were one-goal games with the Canucks playing a strict defensive style in order to win. The team allowed the Stars to nearly win the first round of the playoffs despite the latter having trailed 3-1 in the series. The series against the Ducks was abysmal, and the goal allowed by Luongo in Game 5 OT was the first sign of controversy surrounding Luongo over the next few years.



The following season, the team fell apart as a result of injuries, and many of the team's defensemen were sidelined at some point; Mike Weaver had to play big minutes for the team for a certain stretch during the season, and such players as Nathan McIver had to dress as well. Meanwhile, troubles with Naslund and AV continued; Trevor Linden, on the other hand, was benched most of the year in favor of Ryan Shannon, Matt Pettinger, Brad Isbister, and other such fourth line players. Kevin Bieksa suffered a season-ending calf laceration in November. At the All-Star break, Luongo had decided to take the week off due to the impending birth of his first child; however, when he returned to the lineup, he fell apart and played horrifically. The team also struggled, the Sedins could not score, and the Canucks missed the playoffs after losing 7 of their last 8 games. The third line consisting of Burrows and Kesler was not an offensive force yet; the two were only considered a defensive tandem at the time.

The Canucks, during that last stretch of the 2007-08 season, only needed to play .500 hockey to secure a playoff berth. We saw Roberto's reaction -- he was in tears. Meanwhile, Trevor had his final sendoff in his last game, with Markus in the shadows. Every time Naslund touched the puck, he was booed as he had now become the enemy. It was despicable on the part of Canucks fans. The team also never said goodbye to Brendan Morrison, as he had been injured for most of the season and seemed to quietly leave the city. Despite being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, Roberto still started the final game of the season, having already logged 73 games that year and not allowing his backup to have that game. He let in several goals in the first period and was pulled. The Luc Bourdon tragedy occurred only a month later. Dave Nonis was fired that offseason, having continually made unremarkable signings and bringing in depth players throughout his time as the team's general manager. Fans, at this point, felt the team had to rebuild and start over.

If anything, I feel the first few years of Luongo's tenure were much bleaker than the West Coast Express era. It's not an era I remember fondly. I only feel the team began to gain momentum the year after, once Mats Sundin and Pavol Demitra were able to mentor the team and help them succeed. That was the year Kesler and Burrows found their game, and the team's young players began to find their game.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 02-08-2013 at 05:41 PM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 06:26 PM
  #56
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,266
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Canuck fans
That's just being ignorant, people just can't seem to separate the Moose from before his time in Vancouver and his actions in Vancouver.

If you can't look at the facts of the matter and separate Mark from his heyday to his 3 year period in Vancouver and the way he carried himself here then your opinion will be blemished.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 08:50 PM
  #57
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 10,530
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
Hed have been such a nice addition to the Sabres 99 Cup run had that trade ever gotten finished
Anybody have anything more about this?

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 01:14 AM
  #58
ForsbergForever
Red Rocket
 
ForsbergForever's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,669
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlestownChiefsESC View Post
He was on a tear in February and scored a hat trick against the isles in a saturday afternoon game on fox. But from what I remember soon after he got hurt in practice and was ineffective mostly after that. I will admit that he was ok in the first round vs Florida but that was really it. PS: Leetch was also a beast in the playoffs along with Gretzky and Richter.
The breakdown of Messier's stats for 96-97:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...1/splits/1997/

ForsbergForever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 03:12 AM
  #59
Jinsell
Registered User
 
Jinsell's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
My opinion of the "dark ages" is a bit different from yours, I suppose. Though the Sedin line was only decent during the years between 2000-2004, the top line was dominant, becoming one of the most dynamic lines in the NHL during the early 2000s. The bottom six consisting of such players as Cooke, Linden, May, and Ruutu brought grit and character to the team, and the team's defense consisted of Ohlund, Jovanovski, Salo, Sopel, amongst others. The team consistently battled fiercely with their rivals, some of the NHL's top teams: Colorado Avalanche, Calgary Flames, and the Ottawa Senators, for example. This was, in my opinion, a tremendous era in the team's history, held back only by Brian Burke's struggle to find an adequate goaltender.

I would argue the first few years with Roberto Luongo were not as great as one might recall. Though Luongo played excellent and proved he could steal games all season (in his first year), the lineup lacked offense. Alain Vigneault's decision to implement a defensive dump-and-chase system did not bode well for the team's veterans from the previous era, and Markus Naslund's production declined as a result of having lost his confidence and his license to play offensively and creatively. The Canucks were actively looking for winger for the Sedins (until they settled on using Pyatt there), and the second line of Naslund-Morrison-Bulis/Cooke was not a success. Most games were one-goal games with the Canucks playing a strict defensive style in order to win. The team allowed the Stars to nearly win the first round of the playoffs despite the latter having trailed 3-1 in the series. The series against the Ducks was abysmal, and the goal allowed by Luongo in Game 5 OT was the first sign of controversy surrounding Luongo over the next few years.



The following season, the team fell apart as a result of injuries, and many of the team's defensemen were sidelined at some point; Mike Weaver had to play big minutes for the team for a certain stretch during the season, and such players as Nathan McIver had to dress as well. Meanwhile, troubles with Naslund and AV continued; Trevor Linden, on the other hand, was benched most of the year in favor of Ryan Shannon, Matt Pettinger, Brad Isbister, and other such fourth line players. Kevin Bieksa suffered a season-ending calf laceration in November. At the All-Star break, Luongo had decided to take the week off due to the impending birth of his first child; however, when he returned to the lineup, he fell apart and played horrifically. The team also struggled, the Sedins could not score, and the Canucks missed the playoffs after losing 7 of their last 8 games. The third line consisting of Burrows and Kesler was not an offensive force yet; the two were only considered a defensive tandem at the time.

The Canucks, during that last stretch of the 2007-08 season, only needed to play .500 hockey to secure a playoff berth. We saw Roberto's reaction -- he was in tears. Meanwhile, Trevor had his final sendoff in his last game, with Markus in the shadows. Every time Naslund touched the puck, he was booed as he had now become the enemy. It was despicable on the part of Canucks fans. The team also never said goodbye to Brendan Morrison, as he had been injured for most of the season and seemed to quietly leave the city. Despite being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, Roberto still started the final game of the season, having already logged 73 games that year and not allowing his backup to have that game. He let in several goals in the first period and was pulled. The Luc Bourdon tragedy occurred only a month later. Dave Nonis was fired that offseason, having continually made unremarkable signings and bringing in depth players throughout his time as the team's general manager. Fans, at this point, felt the team had to rebuild and start over.

If anything, I feel the first few years of Luongo's tenure were much bleaker than the West Coast Express era. It's not an era I remember fondly. I only feel the team began to gain momentum the year after, once Mats Sundin and Pavol Demitra were able to mentor the team and help them succeed. That was the year Kesler and Burrows found their game, and the team's young players began to find their game.
Couldn't agree more with this post. Although I applauded the acquistion of Luongo, I don't remember those first couple years too fondly. Apart from the all star goaltender though those 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 Vancouver teams were pretty underwhelming. I hated the dull, defensive style AV was implementing (although admittedly it was probably the only chance the Canucks had at winning at the time). Furthermore, I had little to any confidence in Dave Nonis as a GM. He seemed inexperienced and inept in the majority of his signings and acquistions (sans Luongo of course). Nonis constantly talked as if he was only a piece or two away from having a legitimate Cup contender, but I always felt his particular Canucks team was nowhere near Cup contention.

Things looked pretty bleak by the end of the 2007-2008 season, but when Gillis spoke at his introductory press conference I had a feeling things were changing for the better.

Jinsell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 03:50 PM
  #60
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That's just being ignorant, people just can't seem to separate the Moose from before his time in Vancouver and his actions in Vancouver.

If you can't look at the facts of the matter and separate Mark from his heyday to his 3 year period in Vancouver and the way he carried himself here then your opinion will be blemished.
The reality is, Canuck fans expected Messier to ride in on his stallion and win a Stanley Cup in Vancouver. The guy was 36 when he got there, he was too old to repeat 1994 and Canuck fans hate him for it. It's like Chicago fans calling Bobby Orr crap or Hartford fans calling Bobby Hull crap.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 04:03 PM
  #61
Chalupa Batman
Mod Supervisor
 
Chalupa Batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 23,213
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
The reality is, Canuck fans expected Messier to ride in on his stallion and win a Stanley Cup in Vancouver. The guy was 36 when he got there, he was too old to repeat 1994 and Canuck fans hate him for it. It's like Chicago fans calling Bobby Orr crap or Hartford fans calling Bobby Hull crap.
That ignores a lot of the hoopla that occurred when Messier came to Vancouver (that didn't happen in the Orr or Hull cases).

Chalupa Batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 04:23 PM
  #62
MS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 12,157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
The reality is, Canuck fans expected Messier to ride in on his stallion and win a Stanley Cup in Vancouver. The guy was 36 when he got there, he was too old to repeat 1994 and Canuck fans hate him for it. It's like Chicago fans calling Bobby Orr crap or Hartford fans calling Bobby Hull crap.
This just isn't the case at all.

Your anti-Canuck bias is just endlessly amusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
My take is that Messier himself thought he was still a superstar, and he acted as such. All the "my way or the highway" stuff that Vancouver fans complain about is exactly what Messier did in New York, and it worked beautifully there. My opinion is that by the time Messier got to Vancouver, his skills were eroding, but by that point his ego had been so built up, he refused to realize it, and he no longer had the skills to back up his demands.
In a broad sense, this is maybe sort of the case.

But it completely ignores all of the specifics and this isn't why Canuck fans hate his guts. Again, you had to be there to understand how utterly weird Messier was during the 1997-98 season especially.

Messier is the most hated person in the history of Vancouver sports because :

A) his effort level was a joke. Quite simply, the guy collected $21 million from the organization for not trying. Worst effort at backchecking I've ever seen. Was a running joke amongst Canuck fans how Messier would CONTINUALLY be the last man back when the play was moving into the Canuck zone, and never took a stride in anger toward his own net. He was still terrific on the PP, but at ES, he was an absolute anchor. Oh, and he was a total perimeter player who never hit anyone, either.

If he'd been clearly giving everything he had but just didn't have it any more, people would have been a hell of a lot more understanding.

B) from start to finish, he carried himself like an arrogant megolomaniac piece of crap. Post game interviews were just utterly bizarre. Threw Tom Renney under the bus after 10 games in the wierdest interview I've ever seen. Often didn't travel with the rest of the team. Watched basketball games with the owner, and had the head coach hired on his recommendation. Then Keenan/Messier was the biggest circus act in the history of the franchise.

It was just weird, weird, weird. And when loads of hard-working fan favourite players are thrown away because they were friends with the old captain and Messier doesn't want them around any more, you think the fans aren't going to resent that?

MS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 05:05 PM
  #63
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,266
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
The reality is, Canuck fans expected Messier to ride in on his stallion and win a Stanley Cup in Vancouver. The guy was 36 when he got there, he was too old to repeat 1994 and Canuck fans hate him for it. It's like Chicago fans calling Bobby Orr crap or Hartford fans calling Bobby Hull crap.
Maybe some Canuck fans did think that but I never did and I'm not even talking about production but about his "leadership" or rather the severe lack of it during his time in Vancouver.

Age has nothing to do with leadership.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.