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Habs - Jets

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Old
02-08-2013, 08:43 AM
  #51
IceDaddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
sorry here
but winnipeg is giving up the two best players in this deal.... then they add a 1st rounder?

Winnipeg says no thanks
Clearly you didnt see Subban in the OP.

But I agree winnipeg says no.

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Old
02-08-2013, 01:04 PM
  #52
King Woodballs
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Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
Clearly you didnt see Subban in the OP.

But I agree winnipeg says no.
oh I saw him

My point stands

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Old
02-08-2013, 01:44 PM
  #53
Gump Hasek
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
Are you kidding me ? Subban is worth Kane. He is a top pairing Dman, which Byfuglien is not. If you want to make that type of assessment, I guess you would think Kaberle has a good trade value... Byfuglien is terrible on Defense.
Actually, Subban is not worth Kane, despite your claim to the contrary. Their values as players may be arguably similar but their contracts are not. The salary cap era practically requires players to be traded for near equal value contracts in return, from a value perspective.

Kane is signed to a six year deal. The risk to carry Kane on a payroll is defined by his salary + bonuses + term.
Subban is signed to two years. The risk to carry Subban is salary + bonuses + term.

Kane = 6 years guaranteed at X cost
Subban = 2 years guaranteed at Y cost + ?term +?cost

The risk and cost to carry Kane for six years is defined. The risk to carry Subban beyond two years is unknown from both a cost and term perspective. Given that cost certainty is a must from a planning perspective in the salary cap era, then Kane carries MUCH more value than Subban at current - because it is defined.

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02-08-2013, 01:50 PM
  #54
Slick Eller
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Subban is better than Buff overall.

But that deal stinks for the Jets.

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Old
02-08-2013, 01:51 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
oh I saw him

My point stands
Hi bandwaggoner.

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Old
02-08-2013, 01:53 PM
  #56
IceDaddy
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
oh I saw him

My point stands

Home Bias Proven.

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02-08-2013, 02:51 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Actually, Subban is not worth Kane, despite your claim to the contrary. Their values as players may be arguably similar but their contracts are not. The salary cap era practically requires players to be traded for near equal value contracts in return, from a value perspective.

Kane is signed to a six year deal. The risk to carry Kane on a payroll is defined by his salary + bonuses + term.
Subban is signed to two years. The risk to carry Subban is salary + bonuses + term.

Kane = 6 years guaranteed at X cost
Subban = 2 years guaranteed at Y cost + ?term +?cost

The risk and cost to carry Kane for six years is defined. The risk to carry Subban beyond two years is unknown from both a cost and term perspective. Given that cost certainty is a must from a planning perspective in the salary cap era, then Kane carries MUCH more value than Subban at current - because it is defined.
Yes and no.

What you fail to take into consideration is that Subban is carrying a significantly low enough current salary to make it well worth the risk of not having him signed for those 4 extra years at the significantly higher cap value that Kane is currently at. You are also not taking into consideration positional bias. For whatever the reason, potential elite defencemen have more value than potential elite wingers. Supply and demand are essential determinants in establishing value.

So, "yes", if looking at skill, position, and contract, Subban is equal to Kane at the least, and possibly more than Kane at best.

If also looking at team needs, there is no value in the deal for the Jets because they are in far more need of Kane and his skill set than they are in need of Subban and his skill set. It does not matter if Subban is or is not an upgrade over any of the Jets' defencemen, it matters that the Jets do not have any other winger with Kane's proven skill set in their system to replace him, and they are not gaining anyone in the deal with the skill set to replace him.

This is turning into one ********ing silly thread with no better reason to exist than to piss on other teams' players. One would hope it would get closed sooner than later. People aren't even discussing the damned OP anymore. Sigh...

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Old
02-08-2013, 03:14 PM
  #58
Flair Hay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
Home Bias Proven.
I don't want to get into a pissing match here, but what do you guys think the difference is that makes Subban a #1 defenseman but Byfuglien a 2nd pair guy? Buff isn't conventional by any means, but for the past year and a half he's been a capable defenseman in our own end and a force in the offensive zone. Like he was second in points for defenseman last year.

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Old
02-08-2013, 03:18 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Yes and no.

What you fail to take into consideration is that Subban is carrying a significantly low enough current salary to make it well worth the risk of not having him signed for those 4 extra years at the significantly higher cap value that Kane is currently at. You are also not taking into consideration positional bias. For whatever the reason, potential elite defencemen have more value than potential elite wingers. Supply and demand are essential determinants in establishing value.

So, "yes", if looking at skill, position, and contract, Subban is equal to Kane at the least, and possibly more than Kane at best.

If also looking at team needs, there is no value in the deal for the Jets because they are in far more need of Kane and his skill set than they are in need of Subban and his skill set. It does not matter if Subban is or is not an upgrade over any of the Jets' defencemen, it matters that the Jets do not have any other winger with Kane's proven skill set in their system to replace him, and they are not gaining anyone in the deal with the skill set to replace him.

This is turning into one ********ing silly thread with no better reason to exist than to piss on other teams' players. One would hope it would get closed sooner than later. People aren't even discussing the damned OP anymore. Sigh...
Hello, Drydenwasthebest, nice to see we are on the same side of the fence again.
OT:Since this OP is pretty much a nonstarter, I have a question for you based on your handle! What do you think of Pavelec--we are angst-ridden on our board about our goaltending--and what, if anything, would it take to pry Price loose?

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Old
02-08-2013, 03:20 PM
  #60
IceDaddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
I don't want to get into a pissing match here, but what do you guys think the difference is that makes Subban a #1 defenseman but Byfuglien a 2nd pair guy? Buff isn't conventional by any means, but for the past year and a half he's been a capable defenseman in our own end and a force in the offensive zone. Like he was second in points for defenseman last year.
A top pairing d-man isnt just capable. He excells in both ends of the ice. Buffy puts up a ton of points, which is awesome. But he is also a -25 for his career, which is not awesome.


Last edited by IceDaddy: 02-08-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old
02-08-2013, 03:28 PM
  #61
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This thread has been a flame fest.

Closed.

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