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Marc-Andre Fleury: Why the Penguins Should Bench Him

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Old
02-07-2013, 08:22 AM
  #101
Jag68Sid87
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I'll never trust Marc-Andre Fleury again. He'll have his moments in the crease for us, and as long as he wears the Skating Penguin I will refrain from dissing him totally. But you can't make a really strong commitment to winning a championship if Fleury is all you have in goal. He's simply too bi-polar as a netminder.

I still maintain that we should cash in while he still has great value (as a former No. 1 overall and a Cup winner), or else he'll wind up as untradeable as Luongo for very different reasons.

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02-07-2013, 09:46 AM
  #102
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Hackjob writing piece at it's finest.

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02-07-2013, 09:54 AM
  #103
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I, too, will never fully trust MAF again. I think of his talent level and the results just have not been realized. I think he is what he is; as likely to make a show stopping save as he is in letting in a ehl caliber goal.

That alone makes him untrustworthy. I still wish he does well and hope he can struggle out of the narrow view I now hold of him; but I doubt that will happen.

He is what he is.

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02-07-2013, 10:27 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I still maintain that we should cash in while he still has great value (as a former No. 1 overall and a Cup winner), or else he'll wind up as untradeable as Luongo for very different reasons.

1) I don't think his value is as high as you think it is. He could certainly bring a solid return and help our depth in different areas but Howson already traded Nash and Voracek.

We're not getting any big-time forwards for MAF.... Unless we're trading him for Iginla, in the world's most unexpected trade. Kipper is on his last legs IMO so while not high probability at all, I could fathom something like that happening if Calgary really were going to blow the team up. That is, trade Kipper, Iginla, Tanguay, Boumeester for a whole bunch of new assets. Find the "final goalie solushun" in a couple years.

Barring that insanity we're most likely to get 2 Kunitz and Niskanen type players for him (total), with some combo of picks or prospects being moved around since trading for goalies usually involves odd combinations of assets (rarely goalie for goalie / starter for starter -- in fact I'm not sure I've ever seen that).

2) He'll never be as hard to move as Luongo, because he'll never get a contract even remotely as bad as Luongo's.

If Flower does get re-signed (probably better than a 50/50 chance but still not a sure thing), he won't be getting a big raise. He's going to be 30 years old at that time and no one is giving an inconsistent, 30 year old goalie more than 4 years, and not more than $5M hit IMO. Very likely less. Even if he did win a Cup.


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02-07-2013, 10:57 AM
  #105
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The sad part is it sounds like there are people actually hoping Fleury fails so they can be proven right. Do we have some closet Flyers/Rangers/Devils fans here?

Vokoun wasn't brought in to replace Fleury, he was brought in to give him a breather during the regular season. Look at the Rangers for example. Lundqvist is already off to a shaky start, and they don't trust Biron enough to give him 35% to 40 % of the games. How about the Flyers? Luckily for them Bryz is off to a good start, but look who's behind him. I bet the Penguins trusted Brent Johnson more than the Flyers trust Michael Leighton. Bryz and Lundqvist could very well be worn out come playoff time.

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02-07-2013, 11:10 AM
  #106
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The sad part is it sounds like there are people actually hoping Fleury fails so they can be proven right. Do we have some closet Flyers/Rangers/Devils fans here?
To be clear for my part:

1) I am very disappoint in Fleury's play at the end of last year, but willing to condede the possibility that he's not the type of goalie who can take 65 starts a season and do well... that he might be more consistent if he plays only 50 games or slightly more a year. Thus happy Vokoun is here and hope that he might prove the case that Flower just needs more rest every season to be at his best come playoff time.

2) I am under no delusions whatever that Fleury is an "elite" goalie (he's not close to being one, for any fan who understands the stats). I don't expect that from him and I don't fault him for it when he doesn't deliver it. He made some huge saves in our Cup run and he's a very likable guy so I give him his propers there and hope he wins another one for us with some clutch saves. I like Flower, period. But he's not an elite goalie, regardless of where he was drafted. Nor should he be untouchable in the trade deadline sense.

Put another way, if Flower had been drafted 35th, and had done exactly the same things up till now, no one would even be mentioning the word "elite" or arguing about it, because the expectation that comes with the 1st pick, disappears. He is a good goalie who was picked earlier than he should've been by a rebuilding team who badly needed a new goalie. Simple as that.

3) I say he's still our #1 unless and until he gives the job away over the next several weeks. But I'm not above saying if Flower doesn't perform often enough, and Vokoun does, Vokoun should be our #1 going into the payoffs, period. He has to earn it every year, not just the Cup year.

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02-07-2013, 11:22 AM
  #107
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To be clear for my part:

1) I am very disappoint in Fleury's play at the end of last year, but willing to condede the possibility that he's not the type of goalie who can take 65 starts a season and do well... that he might be more consistent if he plays only 50 games or slightly more a year. Thus happy Vokoun is here and hope that he might prove the case that Flower just needs more rest every season to be at his best come playoff time.

2) I am under no delusions whatever that Fleury is an "elite" goalie (he's not close to being one, for any fan who understands the stats). I don't expect that from him and I don't fault him for it when he doesn't deliver it. He made some huge saves in our Cup run and he's a very likable guy so I give him his propers there and hope he wins another one for us with some clutch saves. I like Flower, period. But he's not an elite goalie, regardless of where he was drafted. Nor should he be untouchable in the trade deadline sense.

Put another way, if Flower had been drafted 35th, and had done exactly the same things up till now, no one would even be mentioning the word "elite" or arguing about it, because the expectation that comes with the 1st pick, disappears. He is a good goalie who was picked earlier than he should've been by a rebuilding team who badly needed a new goalie. Simple as that.

3) I say he's still our #1 unless and until he gives the job away over the next several weeks. But I'm not above saying if Flower doesn't perform often enough, and Vokoun does, Vokoun should be our #1 going into the payoffs, period. He has to earn it every year, not just the Cup year.
Absolutely perfect post. Agreed 100% with all of it.

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02-07-2013, 11:31 AM
  #108
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i have been a Fleury supporter for a while now.
I for one don't blame all past losses on him, the tampa series was NOT his fault.
Game 6 for example he was statiscally awful but really only goofed on 1 goal against and that was a minor goof.

That said, the unsettling thing for me are the times when the team just plays differently in front of him. If the defenders start doing too much it just compounds the problem and things go down hill fast. Keep an eye on that. Fleury lets a weak one in, look at how the team plays. Do they start trying to do too much?

Stats lie, game 6 against tampa, bad statistical outing, good game overall by fleury. Last game against the Isle, statistically a very good game. I thought fleury was flopping waaay to much in that game and technique was questionable at times. A prime example being the 2nd goal scored against. He was very aggressive, and way on top of his crease. He makes a save, but puts the rebound straight out in front of him (hello Marc use your stick to deflect those), doesn't recover very quickly and flops back trying to stop the wide open net goal.
Sure defense got caught a little flat footed, but really that was mainly on Fleury that was a horrible rebound and his lack of recognition/recovery after.

In short I'm more in the camp that I know Fleury is capable of stealing big games, but he is equally capable of losing winnable games. You really never know what you'll get anymore.
He MUST get a new goalie coach. His technique needs some refinement and the days of doing pushups and fancy spin moves in practice need to go. What would I do if I was the goalie coach?

1.) Use your damn stick to deflect pucks to the corner!!!! Fleury has super quick pads, but he gets such a wide butterfly that how many times do we see that rebound kicked out to a bad spot?

2.) Learn how to handle the puck. nuff said.

3.) Backside recoveries, not always a problem. But how many times do we see him get frozen, down in an aggressive location? That results in bad things if you D isn't clearing things out and combined with #1.

4.) Don't go down so damn quick. This is partly a style thing, but if fleury is making a high glove save and his knees are on the ground (not through a screen) you gotta wonder wtf.

5.) Overly aggressive, this actually is something he has toned down over the years. But he just has to be careful not to lapse back into this.

note: while i'm still playing as a goalie (badly), and coach some kids on the position, i won't say I'm the expert. but I probably have a better appreciation of the position then some.

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02-07-2013, 12:02 PM
  #109
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He MUST get a new goalie coach. His technique needs some refinement and the days of doing pushups and fancy spin moves in practice need to go. What would I do if I was the goalie coach?
Great post. Does he even have a full time goalie coach?

Its downright stupid to think a pro team would have a $5 mill asset and not protect their investment.

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02-07-2013, 01:31 PM
  #110
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Great post. Does he even have a full time goalie coach?

Its downright stupid to think a pro team would have a $5 mill asset and not protect their investment.
meloche has been his only goalie coach. time for a new one

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02-07-2013, 01:34 PM
  #111
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Great post. Does he even have a full time goalie coach?

Its downright stupid to think a pro team would have a $5 mill asset and not protect their investment.

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02-07-2013, 04:36 PM
  #112
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Is he full time though? I remember him being a part timer and I might have missed it but I didn't see him on the Pens web site.

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02-07-2013, 04:39 PM
  #113
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Is he full time though? I remember him being a part timer and I might have missed it but I didn't see him on the Pens web site.
dunno. but i do know that his Golden Seals jersey is pretty spiffy.

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02-08-2013, 09:43 AM
  #114
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He's allowed only 10 goals in his last 5 games (4W, 1L). 4 of those goals came in that one loss. Needless to say Flower has been picking up his game quite a bit lately.

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02-08-2013, 09:58 AM
  #115
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He's allowed only 10 goals in his last 5 games (4W, 1L). 4 of those goals came in that one loss. Needless to say Flower has been picking up his game quite a bit lately.
A lot of fans here have written Fleury off, because he really only has two consistently excellent streaks of play (in Spring of 2008 and 2009) and even in ’09 he was highly beatable at times in the Caps series.

Fleury gives the Pens chances to win- he’s far from a top goalie in the league, but I like his athleticism. He’s the type of goalie perfect to make 22 or 23 saves on 25 shots- many of them coming in high quality chances from an aggressive defense that may hang a goalie out to dry more than the conservative, defensive-minded contending team might.

Fleury is more Grant Fuhr or Tom Barrasso than Patrick Roy, but to me, that’s OK. Guys like Fuhr and Barrasso won Cups and were huge reasons why their teams won those Cups…Fleury is going to have to be that same way, a team isn’t going to go deep in the playoffs unless they have a goalie playing great. MAF can do it, has done it, but the question is always the consistency and the focus on the ice.

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02-08-2013, 10:15 AM
  #116
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I look at last nights win and I see two perfectly stoppable goals. Thats the reason Fleury doesnt and won't have great stats or performances. He gets the win, but he dove and let in an open net goal and then he lets Ovechkins rather weak wrister (looked weak live) scribble through his pads- if he was perfectly positioned that goal does not go in.

Again, average NHL goaltending. I am very interested to see Vokouns stats after Fleury and him have placed 15+ games.

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02-08-2013, 10:28 AM
  #117
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I look at last nights win and I see two perfectly stoppable goals..
You could honestly play this game with every single goaltender in the league. It's stupid.

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02-08-2013, 10:42 AM
  #118
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I look at last nights win and I see two perfectly stoppable goals. Thats the reason Fleury doesnt and won't have great stats or performances. He gets the win, but he dove and let in an open net goal and then he lets Ovechkins rather weak wrister (looked weak live) scribble through his pads- if he was perfectly positioned that goal does not go in.

That's just Monday Morning QB'ing. No goalie, with traffic in front, is going to instantly be perfectly positioned on the type of cross-ice pass Riberio made. There's just no way to move left to right like that.

Ovechkin, from that spot, with time to unleash, is still very dangerous. Adams (who let the pass go through), Engelland (who couldn't challenge the shot) and Glass (who kind of got turned around and gave AO too much space) are much more to blame for that IMO. But it was a long PK shift, that stuff sometimes happen when you play against skill.

If you're going to fault Fleury for two goals, you also have to point to him stopping AO on the break, Fehr on a breakaway and keeping the Caps to just 2 goals late in the third when the Pens had let their foot off the gas. That could have been 5-3, 5-4 later on in the game without some stops.


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02-08-2013, 11:11 AM
  #119
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You could honestly play this game with every single goaltender in the league. It's stupid.
True, but to play Devil's Advocate here, Fleury has always been the guy you look at over the breadth of his career and say "Why does he always let shutouts get away from him? Why does he always have to let that one (or two) soft goals get through when he should have easily had it?"

In this specific case, it may be moot since Washington scored first, but I can get why some are frustrated.

That being said, he hasn't really been all that terrible at all since the NYI debacle.

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02-08-2013, 11:51 AM
  #120
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True, but to play Devil's Advocate here, Fleury has always been the guy you look at over the breadth of his career and say "Why does he always let shutouts get away from him? Why does he always have to let that one (or two) soft goals get through when he should have easily had it?"

In this specific case, it may be moot since Washington scored first, but I can get why some are frustrated.

That being said, he hasn't really been all that terrible at all since the NYI debacle.
"He hasn't been all that terrible since the NYI debacle"

He's actually been fantastic since the NYI debacle. He's actually been playing outstanding hockey all year aside from two piss poor games.

And I have never understood the shutout thing. I mean, in the realm of things, it's really not that important. He wins games, and he has backstopped this team to a ton of wins.

Every single goalie let's a soft goal in here or there. People act like Fleury is the only starting goaltender who does it. I don't think the frequency he let's a soft one in is any more frequent than some of the other top goaltenders do. People here just like making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to MAF.

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02-08-2013, 11:58 AM
  #121
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Things that do bother me immensely with Fleury are the following:

1. He can lose focus at times, which could be the reason why shutout elude him. He sometimes plays like he has ADD, and he needs to be involved to be effective. The 1st shot goals have also tended to be a problem, and again, it's because some times his focus isn't there.

2. He is still piss poor at playing the puck. It's a skill of his that has never gotten better, and I don't think it ever will. When you see a guy like Conklin or Vokoun playing in Bylsma's system, it's an awesome thing. You have a goalie that can effectively start a break up ice, it just makes this team faster. Fleury cannot, and will never be able to do that.

3. Much like Jordan Staal, Fleury reads the papers, and listens to the media. I remember in the beginning of the season 2 years ago where he was absolutely terrible, I was at that game where the fans chanted his name in pregame against the Lightning, and that turned his whole season around. It shouldn't take that to bring a goaltender out of the depth of despair. He is way too hard on himself, and his confidence is shaky because of it.

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02-08-2013, 12:03 PM
  #122
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Every single goalie let's a soft goal in here or there. People act like Fleury is the only starting goaltender who does it.
This also goes both ways. People defending Fleury act like the Pens are the only team in the NHL that allows more than a couple quality scoring chances a game, or the only team that turns over the puck resulting in multiple odd-man rushes per game.

This inevitably leaves to this fallacy that goalies simply can't put up good numbers in the Pens' system. Vokoun's proving that's not the case, and frankly, when Fleury is actually playing well, he proves is not the case. It's only when Fleury is erratic that his numbers suffer, and suddenly our team defense is a death sentence for goalie stats.

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02-08-2013, 12:14 PM
  #123
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I look at last nights win and I see two perfectly stoppable goals. Thats the reason Fleury doesnt and won't have great stats or performances. He gets the win, but he dove and let in an open net goal and then he lets Ovechkins rather weak wrister (looked weak live) scribble through his pads- if he was perfectly positioned that goal does not go in.

Again, average NHL goaltending. I am very interested to see Vokouns stats after Fleury and him have placed 15+ games.
Yup, Fleury has to make a save while his mask is being pried off his head by Orpik's stick. As for Ovechkin's goal - he's done that to many other goalies. By the way, did you notice Fleury stopped Ovechkin on a break away, or were you too busy looking at a stat sheet?

How about that goal Vokoun gave up in Washington? Where are the complaints about that?

Quote:
This inevitably leaves to this fallacy that goalies simply can't put up good numbers in the Pens' system. Vokoun's proving that's not the case, and frankly, when Fleury is actually playing well, he proves is not the case. It's only when Fleury is erratic that his numbers suffer, and suddenly our team defense is a death sentence for goalie stats.
I would say the Winnipeg game proves you wrong. Vokoun was in net and the same **** happened.

But that's all it is with you people - stats stats stats.

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02-08-2013, 12:36 PM
  #124
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This also goes both ways. People defending Fleury act like the Pens are the only team in the NHL that allows more than a couple quality scoring chances a game, or the only team that turns over the puck resulting in multiple odd-man rushes per game.

This inevitably leaves to this fallacy that goalies simply can't put up good numbers in the Pens' system. Vokoun's proving that's not the case, and frankly, when Fleury is actually playing well, he proves is not the case. It's only when Fleury is erratic that his numbers suffer, and suddenly our team defense is a death sentence for goalie stats.
So is Fleury right now...

When the team is playing good hockey, the goaltender will benefit.

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02-08-2013, 01:05 PM
  #125
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I look at last nights win and I see two perfectly stoppable goals. Thats the reason Fleury doesnt and won't have great stats or performances. He gets the win, but he dove and let in an open net goal and then he lets Ovechkins rather weak wrister (looked weak live) scribble through his pads- if he was perfectly positioned that goal does not go in.

Again, average NHL goaltending. I am very interested to see Vokouns stats after Fleury and him have placed 15+ games.
The first one, yeah, that was on him. But he was looking to buy a call and, let's be honest, that's not something he does with regularity so I'll give him a pass on it. The second goal was simply one of the best shooters of all time having entirely too much time and space. I'm often critical of Fleury, but I had no problems with his game last night. If he plays at that level in the postseason, the Pens will be fine. That's all I care about.

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