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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
02-07-2013, 10:47 AM
  #551
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
What could've Sherman actually done with the defenseman the last two years?

Yes we can trade one of your three centres at any point of time, but why trade one of them when the other two haven't proven that they can handle the load?

And in the free agency market, Sherman told us that he did send offers to Suter and Parise, but they didn't decide to come here. We all wanted Carle, but realistically speaking how much could he have helped our team? Another player we wanted was Garrison, who probably would've helped our team the most besides Suter, but the feeling I have is he didn't even want to come here at here and wanted to go to a cup contender. Also add in that the defensive depth of the past free agency markets have been dreadful.
Carle is exactly what this team needs. A top pairing PMD. Carle is overpaid and would be with us, but he can play 21-23 minutes a night on a top pairing, run a PP, move the puck, and be counted on for 35-40 points a season. Plus he is a lefty and you could pair him with EJ to have the first legit top pairing since Blake was here. I would guess that Sherman looked into Carle and just found the asking price to be too high.

Carle wouldn't have fixed all of our problems, and there would still be depth issues below the top pairing. It is just that one legit top pairing defensemen would change the entire look of the defense.

My guess on how they figure to fix the defense is to trade one of our centers. I'm to the point that I don't care if it is ROR or Stastny that goes, but somebody has to so we can get a top4 defensemen with potential. That won't be enough by itself either. This team really needs a top 2 and a top 4 defensemen to be at least average.

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02-07-2013, 11:01 AM
  #552
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Carle is exactly what this team needs. A top pairing PMD. Carle is overpaid and would be with us, but he can play 21-23 minutes a night on a top pairing, run a PP, move the puck, and be counted on for 35-40 points a season. Plus he is a lefty and you could pair him with EJ to have the first legit top pairing since Blake was here. I would guess that Sherman looked into Carle and just found the asking price to be too high.
But why overpay for Carle when we have Barrie and Elliott in the pipeline? Also I respectfully disagree about Carle being a top pairing defenseman, he is more like a good 3-4 spot playing 16-18 minutes a night. Yes we are lacking a PMD, but our defensive core currently is having more trouble with the defensive aspect of the game, something Carle isn't good at as well. I think his defensive game is that of Zanon without the blocking ability.

The player we should've went for is Salo, but with his history of injuries makes sense why we didn't

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My guess on how they figure to fix the defense is to trade one of our centers. I'm to the point that I don't care if it is ROR or Stastny that goes, but somebody has to so we can get a top4 defensemen with potential. That won't be enough by itself either. This team really needs a top 2 and a top 4 defensemen to be at least average.
I still think the best chance is in free agency and give time to Barrie, Elliot, and Siemens to develop. But I also wouldn't mind a centre for a top pairing defenseman.

2013 Free agent defensemen (currently)
Hainsey, Ron
Regehr, Robyn
Smid, Ladislav (probably will re-sign)
Ference, Andrew

http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?...D&fa_type_id=2

Are the guys I would target and surprisingly there is some good depth in this upcoming free agency market for defenseman, but I want someone long term and majority of the defensemen are over 34+ who are short terms (they do bring veteran leadership though).

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02-07-2013, 11:19 AM
  #553
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But why overpay for Carle when we have Barrie and Elliott in the pipeline? Also I respectfully disagree about Carle being a top pairing defenseman, he is more like a good 3-4 spot playing 16-18 minutes a night. Yes we are lacking a PMD, but our defensive core currently is having more trouble with the defensive aspect of the game, something Carle isn't good at as well. I think his defensive game is that of Zanon without the blocking ability.

The player we should've went for is Salo, but with his history of injuries makes sense why we didn't

I still think the best chance is in free agency and give time to Barrie, Elliot, and Siemens to develop. But I also wouldn't mind a centre for a top pairing defenseman.
Tampa Bay and Philadelphia both disagree with your assertion that Carle is a 3/4. He is and was a top pairing guy for both teams. He is leading Tampa Bay in ice time right now by over a minute per game and did the same for Philadelphia for a few years. He isn't a #1 by any means, but he can be a solid #2. The Flyers defense isn't nearly as good without Carle IMO. If you were a true cup contender, Carle would ideally be a #3.

The biggest problem with our defense is that they simply can't transition the puck, which results with them getting trapped in their own zone and with enough pressure they eventually give up a goal. The defense can block shots and play sound defense, but if you can't get the puck out of your zone without icing it constantly, you are going to get goals scored on you eventually. Nobody besides Johnson can really move the puck well. Wilson and Hejda are adequate and would be fine if they played with somebody who can move the puck.

When it comes to Barrie and Elliott, they just simply are not ready. I'm not opposed to Barrie (nor Elliott if he isn't still hurt) getting a trial by fire though with the way this season has gone. I don't expect either one to get to Carle's level anytime soon if they ever do. Best case is 3 years away, and if that is the case Carle would still have very good trade value if he was deemed too expensive for this organization to keep.

As for UFAs for next year, the best ones to shoot for would be Whitney or Smid IMO. Whitney, when he is healthy, is capable of playing on a top pairing and can put up some points. The downside is that he is rarely fully healthy and he is really more suited to being on the second pairing. It would be a risk, but a risk I think worth taking.


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02-07-2013, 11:37 AM
  #554
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What could've Sherman actually done with the defenseman the last two years?

Yes we can trade one of your three centres at any point of time, but why trade one of them when the other two haven't proven that they can handle the load?

And in the free agency market, Sherman told us that he did send offers to Suter and Parise, but they didn't decide to come here. We all wanted Carle, but realistically speaking how much could he have helped our team? Another player we wanted was Garrison, who probably would've helped our team the most besides Suter, but the feeling I have is he didn't even want to come here at here and wanted to go to a cup contender. Also add in that the defensive depth of the past free agency markets have been dreadful.
We traded our highest scoring defenseman (Quincey) and replaced him with Greg Zanon. Avs were among the worst teams in the league when it came to creating offense from the backend even when Quincey was here.

What is happening is what anyone should have expected to happen. In addition putting Barrie in the pressbox for minor mistakes while giving Hunwick/Zanon free passes for all their mistakes that ends up with the puck in our net is plain bizarre. Barrie at least can move the puck unlike some of the skating dead back there.

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02-07-2013, 11:53 AM
  #555
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We traded our highest scoring defenseman (Quincey) and replaced him with Greg Zanon. Avs were among the worst teams in the league when it came to creating offense from the backend even when Quincey was here.

What is happening is what anyone should have expected to happen. In addition putting Barrie in the pressbox for minor mistakes while giving Hunwick/Zanon free passes for all their mistakes that ends up with the puck in our net is plain bizarre. Barrie at least can move the puck unlike some of the skating dead back there.
I agree. Sacco's love for Hunwick is unreal. Barrie should be playing so he can learn.

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02-07-2013, 12:28 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
We traded our highest scoring defenseman (Quincey) and replaced him with Greg Zanon. Avs were among the worst teams in the league when it came to creating offense from the backend even when Quincey was here.

What is happening is what anyone should have expected to happen. In addition putting Barrie in the pressbox for minor mistakes while giving Hunwick/Zanon free passes for all their mistakes that ends up with the puck in our net is plain bizarre. Barrie at least can move the puck unlike some of the skating dead back there.
100% spot-on post. Add to the Quincey/Zanon switch the fact that the Avs replaced Liles with Hejda and you have a defense completely reliant on the puckmoving skills of Erik Johnson and Matt ****ing Hunwick.

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02-07-2013, 01:20 PM
  #557
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Tampa Bay and Philadelphia both disagree with your assertion that Carle is a 3/4. He is and was a top pairing guy for both teams. He is leading Tampa Bay in ice time right now by over a minute per game and did the same for Philadelphia for a few years. He isn't a #1 by any means, but he can be a solid #2. The Flyers defense isn't nearly as good without Carle IMO. If you were a true cup contender, Carle would ideally be a #3.

As for UFAs for next year, the best ones to shoot for would be Whitney or Smid IMO. Whitney, when he is healthy, is capable of playing on a top pairing and can put up some points. The downside is that he is rarely fully healthy and he is really more suited to being on the second pairing. It would be a risk, but a risk I think worth taking.
It is because they didn't have anybody else to play. Tampa has definitely improved their core no doubt, but it is more of lines of adding Salo, Brewer, and the development of Hedman (who is looking FANTASTIC). In Philly, Carle played with Pronger is a lot like what Sacco is doing with Hunwick and playing with Johnson. It doesn't mean he is a good defender IMO. Again I still think you want Carle to be a #3-4 on a cup contending team like Vancouver or Pittsburgh.

Also I would stay far away from Whitney, his injures have taken a toll on him and has regressed to the start of this year. He reminds me a lot of a bit better version of Quincey and I would personally like to stay any from Quincey-type players. Hainsey is the best defender to go after via free agency IMO.

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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
We traded our highest scoring defenseman (Quincey) and replaced him with Greg Zanon. Avs were among the worst teams in the league when it came to creating offense from the backend even when Quincey was here.

What is happening is what anyone should have expected to happen. In addition putting Barrie in the pressbox for minor mistakes while giving Hunwick/Zanon free passes for all their mistakes that ends up with the puck in our net is plain bizarre. Barrie at least can move the puck unlike some of the skating dead back there.
I understand that we need PMD because the passing ability of our defense is that of a blind squirrel crossing a highway, but IMO Quincey looked good because of Johnson. In regards to Zanon, remember that the defensive depth of free agency last season was dreadful and the "good" defensemen decided to go elsewhere or didn't improve our team; IE: Carle in my opinion. You could say the worst mistake Sherman did was trading Liles, but I hated how he stopped the play and how he would circle on the PP.

Agreed about Barrie; send him down or play him.

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02-07-2013, 01:44 PM
  #558
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What could've Sherman actually done with the defenseman the last two years?

Yes we can trade one of your three centres at any point of time, but why trade one of them when the other two haven't proven that they can handle the load?

And in the free agency market, Sherman told us that he did send offers to Suter and Parise, but they didn't decide to come here. We all wanted Carle, but realistically speaking how much could he have helped our team? Another player we wanted was Garrison, who probably would've helped our team the most besides Suter, but the feeling I have is he didn't even want to come here at here and wanted to go to a cup contender. Also add in that the defensive depth of the past free agency markets have been dreadful.
Excellent points. I recall that Garrison is from BC and basically wanted to play for his "home" team, in just the same way that Suter and Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota. That said we grabbed Parenteau right away, arguably the best UFA forward after Parise, but could not get the kind of player we needed to bolster the defense. It may be the brain trust hoped that they would have the forward group relatively settled for this season then they could look at trading for defensive help, but then O'Reilly's situation dragged on and the injuries started, and we're in deep.

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02-07-2013, 02:16 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
What could've Sherman actually done with the defenseman the last two years?

Yes we can trade one of your three centres at any point of time, but why trade one of them when the other two haven't proven that they can handle the load?

And in the free agency market, Sherman told us that he did send offers to Suter and Parise, but they didn't decide to come here. We all wanted Carle, but realistically speaking how much could he have helped our team? Another player we wanted was Garrison, who probably would've helped our team the most besides Suter, but the feeling I have is he didn't even want to come here at here and wanted to go to a cup contender. Also add in that the defensive depth of the past free agency markets have been dreadful.
He could've done a better job than replace Liles with Hejda and Quincey with Zanon. He could've gotten bargain-bin puckmovers (Campoli, etc.) instead of taking any puck savvy the defense had left (apart from EJ) out of the lineup.

This defense probably still would've sucked, but not to the extent it is now. I'm just stunned at how poorly this set of scrubs has been put together with absolutely NO thought toward a puckmover.

I agree that Carle wouldn't have solved our problems, but even with a limited budget, Sherman managed to make all the wrong moves this offseason.

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02-07-2013, 02:19 PM
  #560
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He could've done a better job than replace Liles with Hejda and Quincey with Zanon. He could've gotten bargain-bin puckmovers (Campoli, etc.) instead of taking any puck savvy the defense had left (apart from EJ) out of the lineup.

This defense probably still would've sucked, but not to the extent it is now. I'm just stunned at how poorly this set of scrubs has been put together with absolutely NO thought toward a puckmover.

I agree that Carle wouldn't have solved our problems, but even with a limited budget, Sherman managed to make all the wrong moves this offseason.
Last seasons Campoli would make Hunwick look like a legit 1st pairing d-man.

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02-07-2013, 02:27 PM
  #561
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Last seasons Campoli would make Hunwick look like a legit 1st pairing d-man.
Overall, his body of work is far better than Hunwick's.

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02-07-2013, 02:30 PM
  #562
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Overall, his body of work is far better than Hunwick's.
Yes, but last season he was beyond terrible.

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02-07-2013, 03:07 PM
  #563
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It is because they didn't have anybody else to play. Tampa has definitely improved their core no doubt, but it is more of lines of adding Salo, Brewer, and the development of Hedman (who is looking FANTASTIC). In Philly, Carle played with Pronger is a lot like what Sacco is doing with Hunwick and playing with Johnson. It doesn't mean he is a good defender IMO. Again I still think you want Carle to be a #3-4 on a cup contending team like Vancouver or Pittsburgh.
Tampa has Brewer, Hedman, and Salo... Philadelphia has Timonen and Coburn... everyone of those are pretty good defensemen. The Flyers also have Meszaros who is no slouch himself. Pronger only played 12 games last season (didn't look good either), and 50 the year before Carle has not relied on Pronger like Hunwick does EJ for a long time. These teams trust Carle to log minutes. That says something about his play. He is easily a serviceable top pairing PMD. Ideally if you are competing for a cup you want him as a #3, but most teams are not in that position and the Avs are not even close. The Avs are just trying to get back into the playoffs, and Carle would put the Avs closer. He would be a solid #2D on this team.

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02-07-2013, 04:07 PM
  #564
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Yes, but last season he was beyond terrible.
Point still being that the Avs could have and should have shored up the offense lost in the Quincey/Liles trades, and instead replaced both with defensemen with no offensive ability. Even a sucky Campoli would generate more offense than a good Zanon.

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02-07-2013, 05:58 PM
  #565
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Tampa has Brewer, Hedman, and Salo... Philadelphia has Timonen and Coburn... everyone of those are pretty good defensemen. The Flyers also have Meszaros who is no slouch himself. Pronger only played 12 games last season (didn't look good either), and 50 the year before Carle has not relied on Pronger like Hunwick does EJ for a long time. These teams trust Carle to log minutes. That says something about his play. He is easily a serviceable top pairing PMD. Ideally if you are competing for a cup you want him as a #3, but most teams are not in that position and the Avs are not even close. The Avs are just trying to get back into the playoffs, and Carle would put the Avs closer. He would be a solid #2D on this team.
Ok I know what you are saying now, yes Carle is a #2 on our current team, but as future cup contender (or any cup contenders out there) I wouldn't want him to be a #2 while being more in the 3-4 position.

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02-07-2013, 06:51 PM
  #566
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I think the issue is that our big defenders aren't all that good defensively anyways. If we're going to be hemmed in our own zone regardless and have guys like Zanon making passes to the Koivu's of the league for easy goals against then we may as well have a bad defender or two with some actual puck moving ability.

At least if we're going to suck defensively, we could have a semi-watchable product and score some goals to give ourselves a chance to win

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02-08-2013, 02:04 AM
  #567
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The Avalanche are the only team in the NHL whose defensemen don't have a single, solitary goal between them.

The only people surprised by this are the Avalanche.

Sherman has got to go.

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02-08-2013, 06:16 AM
  #568
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The Avalanche are the only team in the NHL whose defensemen don't have a single, solitary goal between them.

The only people surprised by this are the Avalanche.

Sherman has got to go.
Well it's not really surprise. But how is it possible, that they are horrible defensively and offensively? I thought these guys were supposed to be DEFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN, so they should be at least able to play defense for god's sake, but they suck doing everything.

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02-08-2013, 11:02 AM
  #569
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The Avalanche are the only team in the NHL whose defensemen don't have a single, solitary goal between them.

The only people surprised by this are the Avalanche.

Sherman has got to go.
Let's see how they handle the O'Reilly situation, and what they do in the summer first. There wasn't a whole lot they could do last summer. They couldn't match the crazy deal for Suter. Garrison wanted to go to Vancouver. Carle was overpaid as a one dimensional D.

They chose to be patient. That's fine, as long as they do something to address the problem at some point. Giving up assets for another Hunwick type player wouldn't make much sense.

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02-08-2013, 11:13 AM
  #570
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Let's see how they handle the O'Reilly situation, and what they do in the summer first. There wasn't a whole lot they could do last summer. They couldn't match the crazy deal for Suter. Garrison wanted to go to Vancouver. Carle was overpaid as a one dimensional D.

They chose to be patient. That's fine, as long as they do something to address the problem at some point. Giving up assets for another Hunwick type player wouldn't make much sense.
This summer could very well be their best chance, with the cap dropping for next year. We could be looking at a very different team (especially defense) next Fall.

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02-08-2013, 12:26 PM
  #571
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Well it's not really surprise. But how is it possible, that they are horrible defensively and offensively? I thought these guys were supposed to be DEFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN, so they should be at least able to play defense for god's sake, but they suck doing everything.
Yup. It doesn't matter if these guys are somehow experts at getting the puck away from the opposition, their supreme lack of puck skill fails to keep the puck away from the opposition. It also fails to get the puck out of the zone effectively.

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Let's see how they handle the O'Reilly situation, and what they do in the summer first. There wasn't a whole lot they could do last summer. They couldn't match the crazy deal for Suter. Garrison wanted to go to Vancouver. Carle was overpaid as a one dimensional D.

They chose to be patient. That's fine, as long as they do something to address the problem at some point. Giving up assets for another Hunwick type player wouldn't make much sense.
They still could have done better than to assemble the most immobile, unskilled defensive corps in the league. There were players available who could've addressed the lack of puck skill, and Sherman just chose to double down on grit and defensive ability because it worked so well for a short stretch last season. He needs to go. We've been patient long enough. This should have been a season where we saw some real progress toward a winner. We're seeing nothing but regression this year.

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02-08-2013, 12:41 PM
  #572
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They still could have done better than to assemble the most immobile, unskilled defensive corps in the league. There were players available who could've addressed the lack of puck skill, and Sherman just chose to double down on grit and defensive ability because it worked so well for a short stretch last season. He needs to go. We've been patient long enough. This should have been a season where we saw some real progress toward a winner. We're seeing nothing but regression this year.
Name them. And you're not allowed to use Suter, Garrison, or Carle. People keep rehashing this **** but no one ever names these amazing players that we missed out on. Every year it's the same thing; complain about the signings we make, complain about the signings we don't make, make up dream scenarios and complain they didn't happen.

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02-08-2013, 12:59 PM
  #573
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Name them. And you're not allowed to use Suter, Garrison, or Carle. People keep rehashing this **** but no one ever names these amazing players that we missed out on. Every year it's the same thing; complain about the signings we make, complain about the signings we don't make, make up dream scenarios and complain they didn't happen.
Laugh all you want, but Chris Campoli or Wade Redden could be had for cheap and would be better options on the blueline than Greg Zanon. Would they make us a contender? Hell no, but this team wouldn't be so egregiously bad as it is right now at moving the damned puck. Those guys would be far better placeholders for the kids developing on the farm than what we have at present.

I've suggested the Avs inquire as to the availability of Yannick Weber, but obviously there's some risk involved and the reward might not be so great. Still, I think he could be had for relatively cheap, and there's still potential there.

I have never, not once posted on here that we should have gotten Suter, Carle, or any of the other obscenely expensive defensemen who were available this offseason. The Avs should not go big in free agency until they're sure they have the core of talent in place they feel can contend. My argument is that even under a restricted budget, this team was once capable of at least icing a watchable product, and at least a team that looked competent and competitive for long stretches. This defense at present is so utterly abysmal in all aspects of the game it's inexcusable.

There aren't amazing players available. Not for a reasonable price at least. But the Avs needed to do more to address the losses of Liles and Quincey. It's fine if you're going to trade those guys, but to just put a bunch of pylons in there to replace them and wait until one of two 21-year-old blueliners with only a year of pro experience are ready to shoulder the massive load isn't a sound plan to me. It sounds like there's no plan at all at the Avalanche offices.

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02-08-2013, 01:15 PM
  #574
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Laugh all you want, but Chris Campoli or Wade Redden could be had for cheap and would be better options on the blueline than Greg Zanon. Would they make us a contender? Hell no, but this team wouldn't be so egregiously bad as it is right now at moving the damned puck. Those guys would be far better placeholders for the kids developing on the farm than what we have at present.

I've suggested the Avs inquire as to the availability of Yannick Weber, but obviously there's some risk involved and the reward might not be so great. Still, I think he could be had for relatively cheap, and there's still potential there.

I have never, not once posted on here that we should have gotten Suter, Carle, or any of the other obscenely expensive defensemen who were available this offseason. The Avs should not go big in free agency until they're sure they have the core of talent in place they feel can contend. My argument is that even under a restricted budget, this team was once capable of at least icing a watchable product, and at least a team that looked competent and competitive for long stretches. This defense at present is so utterly abysmal in all aspects of the game it's inexcusable.

There aren't amazing players available. Not for a reasonable price at least. But the Avs needed to do more to address the losses of Liles and Quincey. It's fine if you're going to trade those guys, but to just put a bunch of pylons in there to replace them and wait until one of two 21-year-old blueliners with only a year of pro experience are ready to shoulder the massive load isn't a sound plan to me. It sounds like there's no plan at all at the Avalanche offices.
Redden wasn't available in the summer, and who knows if Weber was. In the case of guys like Campoli, and Weber, they come at such an expense defensviely, I'm not too worried about the Avs passing on them. It wouldn't fully address the blueline problem, and would cost them in their own zone. This is why I'm not too upset with them being patient for the right guy, especially if they have to give up assets.

For instance say they trade for Yandle, or MDZ, or another legit D that becomes available, or pick up Streit as a UFA. Those guys address the problem, and it becomes basically a non issue that they didn't throw a flyer at Wade Redden or Yanick Weber.

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02-08-2013, 01:53 PM
  #575
detrude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Laugh all you want, but Chris Campoli or Wade Redden could be had for cheap and would be better options on the blueline than Greg Zanon. Would they make us a contender? Hell no, but this team wouldn't be so egregiously bad as it is right now at moving the damned puck. Those guys would be far better placeholders for the kids developing on the farm than what we have at present.

I've suggested the Avs inquire as to the availability of Yannick Weber, but obviously there's some risk involved and the reward might not be so great. Still, I think he could be had for relatively cheap, and there's still potential there.

I have never, not once posted on here that we should have gotten Suter, Carle, or any of the other obscenely expensive defensemen who were available this offseason. The Avs should not go big in free agency until they're sure they have the core of talent in place they feel can contend. My argument is that even under a restricted budget, this team was once capable of at least icing a watchable product, and at least a team that looked competent and competitive for long stretches. This defense at present is so utterly abysmal in all aspects of the game it's inexcusable.

There aren't amazing players available. Not for a reasonable price at least. But the Avs needed to do more to address the losses of Liles and Quincey. It's fine if you're going to trade those guys, but to just put a bunch of pylons in there to replace them and wait until one of two 21-year-old blueliners with only a year of pro experience are ready to shoulder the massive load isn't a sound plan to me. It sounds like there's no plan at all at the Avalanche offices.
Redden wasn't available until he was bought out. Even then, at best it's only a decent move in hindsight because he's looked half-way decent with the Blues, though I think this is debatable with the last couple games. But let's not kid ourselves, that's a move that would be shredded and second guessed to infinity if it happened.

Campoli would be decent, I'll grant you that. His defense is kinda meh, but I don't think he'd be any worse than what we currently have.

We can't assume Weber is even available. I think he'd be a great addition, but we can't assume he'd be easy to acquire.

I think the biggest problem we currently have is Elliott and Barrie aren't ready. Barrie, at least, looked like he was ready to take the next step this year. He looked great in the AHL this year but he's just looked out out of place so far in the NHL. It's to be expected of a rookie, sure, and it's hard to blame him for the clusterf* that is our defense, but he does look different. At this point do we keep playing him and hope he adjusts, or send him back and try it again next year?

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