HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - Canadiens1958

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-08-2013, 10:49 AM
  #51
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, for me they were 1A/1B as is shown in the results too. Not much of a difference. Given Hasek 4th spot instead of 7 would he have gone ahead of Roy?
They would have tied with 149 points if I can do basic math correctly. Would there have been a tie-breaker or just two guys at 1st? I think it would have been fitting almost to leave them tied, no other position is this close.

Rob Scuderi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 11:26 AM
  #52
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,118
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
They would have tied with 149 points if I can do basic math correctly. Would there have been a tie-breaker or just two guys at 1st? I think it would have been fitting almost to leave them tied, no other position is this close.
Based on Howe/Quackenbush, I don't believe we do tie-breakers. And we did have votes that were even closer: Gardiner/Benedict, Parent/Worters, Smith/Lehman, LeSueur/Luongo. And Thomas/Lundqvist/Connell was a separation of three goaltenders by three points each.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 11:41 AM
  #53
TAnnala
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 9,754
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post

I like that TAnnala - despite being a non-voter - came in here with a positive attitude and was receptive to Canadiens1958's reasoning, even in disagreement. But I don't like the words "biased, weak and fallacious" being tossed at a voting member by other non-voters who haven't put their credibility on the line with their own list.
Well, there was pretty straightforward message sent on the sticky-board by two different Mods that disrespect would not be tolerated.
But most of all, read trough every thread you had regarding of this thread and found them damn interesting. So it would be like me giving **** for someone about something i know 10X less.

But for the voting, the difference was three points 149 vs. 146 and Hasek had 11 1st place votes opposed to Roy's 10. It does not make the list "tainted".

I guess the fact that everyone knew that their voting record would come puplic, might have removed some of the possible bias.

TAnnala is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 12:36 PM
  #54
pluppe
Registered User
 
pluppe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 685
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
No. More than that, Canadiens1958's list was never rejected for this or any other position, whereas the lowest vote for Roy came from a list that was originally rejected.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1336403



pluppe is right about one thing though. A single voter could have changed the outcomes of this project by producing a Top-60 list, participating in the project, voting, and subsequently defending the positions taken - like Canadiens1958 did.

I like that TAnnala - despite being a non-voter - came in here with a positive attitude and was receptive to Canadiens1958's reasoning, even in disagreement. But I don't like the words "biased, weak and fallacious" being tossed at a voting member by other non-voters who haven't put their credibility on the line with their own list.
Well, I only passed weak and fallacious on because they were thrown at me in the post I was responding to. And biased I stand by. And I am only saying this because I love the project as a whole.

pluppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 12:47 PM
  #55
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Based on Howe/Quackenbush, I don't believe we do tie-breakers. And we did have votes that were even closer: Gardiner/Benedict, Parent/Worters, Smith/Lehman, LeSueur/Luongo. And Thomas/Lundqvist/Connell was a separation of three goaltenders by three points each.
I meant position as hockey positions rather than positions on our list. I think it makes sense opinions vary the further you go down the list. I don't think there will be as fierce a debate over who's 1st in any other position so a tie or one of them taking it by a hair seems very fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
Well, I only passed weak and fallacious on because they were thrown at me in the post I was responding to. And biased I stand by. And I am only saying this because I love the project as a whole.
We're all biased or these projects would have no purpose.

Rob Scuderi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 12:49 PM
  #56
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
It is not having Roy and Plante #1 and #2 that I argue against. But it shows what the poster wants to see. And we also know wich team he prefers. And in my eyes his argumentation against Hasek is biased, weak and fallacious. And by voting against Hasek in an extreme measure (compared to everybody else) I question the reasoning.

Would you react if an Edmonton fan voted Gretzky 1st and Orr 7th stating weak arguments as durability, non vocal leadership or a single really bad game? I think you could question this even though Gretzky as #1 is normal.
Ya, pluppe, honestly & most respectfully, your so far off base in suggesting this (or really any other voting member from what Ive seen & can determine) Member's partisanship (Habs fan) tainted his votes in going with Roy & Plante, both seminal goaltenders who's skills & contributions rank them 1-5 in almost any list Ive ever seen from multiple sources that it really borders on Flaming IMHO. Its direct assault on an individuals intellectual capacities, honesty & objectivity. Totally uncalled for, and obviously youve' got a burr on your shirt tail that transcends just this little exercise in suggesting such.

Quebec has been the cauldron that has produced some of the very best goaltenders to have ever played the game. As a former goaltender who did play at a very high level through both my own eyewitness observations & determinations, anecdotal educative experiences through coaching & training as a kid that I was lucky enough to have received from some of the goalies on this list, others who did play in the NHL & minors, in-game experience combined with a deep interest & passion for the position, its evolution it just so happens that Vezina, Durnan, Plante & Roy, the latter two in particular do indeed rank 1 & 2 or 1A & 1B. Personally, I rank Sawchuk as the #1 of All Time, followed by Plante, then Roy, Brodeur etc. Thats 3 of the top 5 hailing from the PQ.

Many lists, observers, do indeed rank Hasek as Best Ever, however, a great many others as well do not. Obviously, Im in this latter camp, as quite frankly I did not appreciate the manner in which he played the game. Thats not to say I didnt or dont respect him, what he achieved, I simply didnt have time for the technical aspects of his game, saw innumerable flaws, never sharing the confidence & complete admiration in him that a great many did & do for his game. Its only on the absence of his technical proficiencies that he falls behind Brodeur on my list, ranking him in the 4th position, I do so reservedly and only elevate him to that level due to his record, the hard numbers.

Finally, Edmontonians are a hockey savvy lot. I dont believe for one second that any objective hockey fan & observer would deliberately & maliciously, strategically or otherwise drop an Orr or whomever into obscurity in order to make a case for lets say Gretzky, Coffey or Kurri, placing them ahead of whomever in a purely partisan & completely biased act of subjective self indulgence. The crest on the front of the sweater is meaningless, its the name & number on the back thats important..

and hey, Im a life long Leafs fan. Was around when that meant winning, something to be proud of. You think I dont envy the wealth of riches the Habs organization has enjoyed in the crease and at virtually every other position over the past century? Canadiens' fans on the whole are extremely knowledgeable & astute observers of the game, deserving of much respect. I cant fathom any one of them ever acting subversively in hijacking an exercise of this nature in order to even further elevate their already premier position as the classiest organization in the league. Their not built that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
But I don't like the words "biased, weak and fallacious" being tossed at a voting member by other non-voters who haven't put their credibility on the line with their own list.
Nor do I, and no place for it here on the HOH Board. I didnt participate obviously, but I will next time around... as for C58's initial "suggestion" that started this firestorm, that the Administrators or "Moderators" be non-voting non-particpatory Members, whats the problem with that? Take a vote. Ask for volunteers if its decided for purely clinical reasons and to avoid even a hint of bias or strategic voting, go for it. I dont believe for one second that 70's or TDMM, overpass or Taco influenced, framed, messed around & up in that regard in anyway whatsoever. Just not on. To be highly commended for their execution. Job well done.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 12:52 PM
  #57
Master_Of_Districts
Registered User
 
Master_Of_Districts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Black Ruthenia
Country: Belarus
Posts: 1,746
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
The thing about rebounds is that any ensuing shots are significantly more likely to go in. So, a goalie that has a problem with giving up juicy rebounds will see it reflected in his save percentage. Given how well Hasek fared in that regard, there are a number of explanations: a. his tendency to give up rebounds has been overstated; b. he gave up more rebounds than average, but was a much better-than-average second and third shot goalie; c. he was much better at stopping the puck than all other goalies in all other situations.
Exactly.

If those making the claim just stopped and considered the implications, they'd realize that if Hasek was in fact a relatively poor "first shot shooter" (incidentally - is there even any evidence for this to begin with?), that would imply that he must have been astronomically better than everyone else at stopping rebounds, given his substantial advantage in overall save percentage, the relative rarity of rebound shots, and the fact that rebound shots are significantly more dangerous.

Then again, I'm assuming logical reasoning comes natural to others - maybe it doesn't.

Master_Of_Districts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 01:45 PM
  #58
Hanji
Registered User
 
Hanji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Country: United States
Posts: 897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Many lists, observers, do indeed rank Hasek as Best Ever, however, a great many others as well do not. Obviously, Im in this latter camp, as quite frankly I did not appreciate the manner in which he played the game. Thats not to say I didnt or dont respect him, what he achieved, I simply didnt have time for the technical aspects of his game, saw innumerable flaws, never sharing the confidence & complete admiration in him that a great many did & do for his game. Its only on the absence of his technical proficiencies that he falls behind Brodeur on my list, ranking him in the 4th position, I do so reservedly and only elevate him to that level due to his record, the hard numbers.

How was Hasek less technically proficient than a Brodeur?
More unorthodox? Of course. However everything about Hasek's game was technical and calculating. Perhaps no goalie in history understood angles like Hasek did. It was unpredictability by design.

Hanji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 02:12 PM
  #59
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,885
vCash: 500
Angles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
How was Hasek less technically proficient than a Brodeur?
More unorthodox? Of course. However everything about Hasek's game was technical and calculating. Perhaps no goalie in history understood angles like Hasek did. It was unpredictability by design.
Dominik Hasek had a great understanding of vertical angles relative to his position on the ice and the shooter. This does not mean he understood all the angles involved in goaltending.

Rebound control involves angles. The angle of the goalie pads or goalie stick effects how rebounds are directed. Used effectively,properly angled goalie pads, skates, blockers, sticks will direct shots to the corners and boards. Used with important angles the rebounds wind up in the slot creating additional work and scoring chances.

Plenty of instructional videos available on youtube or google. Simply search "hockey goalie rebound control".

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 02:14 PM
  #60
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
How was Hasek less technically proficient than a Brodeur? More unorthodox? Of course. However everything about Hasek's game was technical and calculating. Perhaps no goalie in history understood angles like Hasek did. It was unpredictability by design.
He played horizontally. I have a problem with that. High-wire act. Lack of rebound control. Had he not been playing behind exceptionally adroit, flexible & talented defenceman, absolute Murder. Wouldve been killed. A liability. You suggest that it was unpredictability by design, and no question a complete outlier who was thinking outside of the box however, they were not sketches, renderings, colour applications that I cared for. Panic. Harem Scarem.

What shouldve been the mundane in terms of making a save & controlling rebounds, efficiency, economy of movement inexorably requiring sensational efforts, unnecessarily. Too much art, not enough science, weak skater, stickhandler, didnt communicate with his players. An island unto himself with but one bizarrely windswept Pinwheel Palm Tree desperately hanging on for life. His actions often resulting in Force 9 Gales. Definitely a crowd pleaser in that regard, but not waters anyone should attempt to navigate, let alone replicate in terms of playing the position, yet here we are, and I see it all over the league with the modern BF goaltenders. Dont like it Sir, nope, not one bit.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 02:16 PM
  #61
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 31,999
vCash: 500
It's my understanding that Hasek would have been a better goalie if he was less entertaining, with all other things being equal.

kmad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 02:33 PM
  #62
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,127
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
It's my understanding that Hasek would have been a better goalie if he was less entertaining, with all other things being equal.
I'm going to need a citation there.

GuineaPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 02:42 PM
  #63
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
He played horizontally. I have a problem with that. High-wire act. Lack of rebound control. Had he not been playing behind exceptionally adroit, flexible & talented defenceman, absolute Murder. Wouldve been killed. A liability.
Had he actually played behind exceptionally adroit, flexible, and talented defensemen, he wouldn't have faced all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th shots that he's so famous for stopping.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 03:06 PM
  #64
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Had he actually played behind exceptionally adroit, flexible, and talented defensemen, he wouldn't have faced all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th shots that he's so famous for stopping.
Are you suggesting Buffalo & Detroits defence were lacking in some serious talent? They should never have had to have dealt with it, did their best, often times having to collapse on the play themselves. You find yourself playing in front of a goalie like that, the puck seemingly on Acid, not a whole Hell of a lot you can do but pray for the hallucinations to stop, Hasek long since gone from this mortal plane, uncommunicative.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 03:11 PM
  #65
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,885
vCash: 500
Defensemen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Are you suggesting Buffalo & Detroits defence were lacking in some serious talent? They should never have had to have dealt with it, did their best, often times having to collapse on the play themselves. You find yourself playing in front of a goalie like that, the puck seemingly on Acid, not a whole Hell of a lot you can do but pray for the hallucinations to stop.
That is part of the Hasek paradox. His regular season SV% with outstanding defensemen - Detroit headed by Lidstrom and Chicago headed by Chelios does not impress.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hasekdo01.html

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 03:17 PM
  #66
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
That is part of the Hasek paradox. His regular season SV% with outstanding defensemen - Detroit headed by Lidstrom and Chicago headed by Chelios does not impress.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hasekdo01.html
As if his Detroit and Chicago (!!!) stops formed a substantial part of his career.

Absurd.

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 03:22 PM
  #67
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,068
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Had he actually played behind exceptionally adroit, flexible, and talented defensemen, he wouldn't have faced all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th shots that he's so famous for stopping.
Actually he wouldn't have faced all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th shots if he'd simply have stopped the rebound. An all-star defense corps couldn't have saved Hasek from facing all the rebounds he himself created.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 03:42 PM
  #68
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Actually he wouldn't have faced all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th shots if he'd simply have stopped the rebound. An all-star defense corps couldn't have saved Hasek from facing all the rebounds he himself created.
Well this is just it. Your the "Weatherman" back there, and its your J.O.B. to keep it calm, keep it steady, control the waves incoming & outgoing on the first shot as much as possible. Because of his actions more often than not some serious white caps forming as he performed the Backstroke, the Australian Crawl, Freestyling it all over a frozen surface. Highly entertaining yes, spectacular, sensational, absolutely, just not my idea (in fact, completely anathema to it) of how the position should be played. Additionally, for all the talk of his Supernatural mental & intellectual capacities, lacking in serious skating & puck handling skills, he wasnt "transitional", wouldnt/couldnt see the forest for the tree's in headmanning the puck, catching the opposition in deep, getting the biscuit up to an open winger or whomever. Impossible to accomplish playing from the prone position.... now, Im being hard on him, however, he was/is a one-off, and he's deserving of a top 5 ranking/position. Absolutely.


Last edited by Killion: 02-08-2013 at 03:55 PM.
Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 03:57 PM
  #69
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,127
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Actually he wouldn't have faced all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th shots if he'd simply have stopped the rebound. An all-star defense corps couldn't have saved Hasek from facing all the rebounds he himself created.
Once again, I question this line of reasoning given Hasek's save percentages. If he was really creating so many rebounds, wouldn't his numbers have been more pedestrian? If he was really so prone to creating high-percentage shots for the opposition, surely there would be some statistical basis this argument could be founded upon rather than purely hyperbolic claims.

GuineaPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 04:08 PM
  #70
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,068
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Once again, I question this line of reasoning given Hasek's save percentages. If he was really creating so many rebounds, wouldn't his numbers have been more pedestrian? If he was really so prone to creating high-percentage shots for the opposition, surely there would be some statistical basis this argument could be founded upon rather than purely hyperbolic claims.
It can actually have an inflationary effect on save percentage by creating 3 or 4 extraneous shots that subsequently get saved. 3 or 4 saves having a greater impact on one's save percentage than 1 single save does. Rinse and repeat.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 04:17 PM
  #71
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,885
vCash: 500
Impeded Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It can actually have an inflationary effect on save percentage by creating 3 or 4 extraneous shots that subsequently get saved. 3 or 4 saves having a greater impact on one's save percentage than 1 single save does. Rinse and repeat.
You have to account for the impeded shots from the slot that rebounds produce. Collapsing defensemen do not allow clear or direct shots from rebounds.

Then you have the effect from the resulting faceoffs.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 05:01 PM
  #72
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, pluppe, honestly & most respectfully, your so far off base in suggesting this (or really any other voting member from what Ive seen & can determine) Member's partisanship (Habs fan) tainted his votes in going with Roy & Plante, both seminal goaltenders who's skills & contributions rank them 1-5 in almost any list Ive ever seen from multiple sources that it really borders on Flaming IMHO. Its direct assault on an individuals intellectual capacities, honesty & objectivity. Totally uncalled for, and obviously youve' got a burr on your shirt tail that transcends just this little exercise in suggesting such.

Quebec has been the cauldron that has produced some of the very best goaltenders to have ever played the game. As a former goaltender who did play at a very high level through both my own eyewitness observations & determinations, anecdotal educative experiences through coaching & training as a kid that I was lucky enough to have received from some of the goalies on this list, others who did play in the NHL & minors, in-game experience combined with a deep interest & passion for the position, its evolution it just so happens that Vezina, Durnan, Plante & Roy, the latter two in particular do indeed rank 1 & 2 or 1A & 1B. Personally, I rank Sawchuk as the #1 of All Time, followed by Plante, then Roy, Brodeur etc. Thats 3 of the top 5 hailing from the PQ.

Many lists, observers, do indeed rank Hasek as Best Ever, however, a great many others as well do not. Obviously, Im in this latter camp, as quite frankly I did not appreciate the manner in which he played the game. Thats not to say I didnt or dont respect him, what he achieved, I simply didnt have time for the technical aspects of his game, saw innumerable flaws, never sharing the confidence & complete admiration in him that a great many did & do for his game. Its only on the absence of his technical proficiencies that he falls behind Brodeur on my list, ranking him in the 4th position, I do so reservedly and only elevate him to that level due to his record, the hard numbers.

Finally, Edmontonians are a hockey savvy lot. I dont believe for one second that any objective hockey fan & observer would deliberately & maliciously, strategically or otherwise drop an Orr or whomever into obscurity in order to make a case for lets say Gretzky, Coffey or Kurri, placing them ahead of whomever in a purely partisan & completely biased act of subjective self indulgence. The crest on the front of the sweater is meaningless, its the name & number on the back thats important..

and hey, Im a life long Leafs fan. Was around when that meant winning, something to be proud of. You think I dont envy the wealth of riches the Habs organization has enjoyed in the crease and at virtually every other position over the past century? Canadiens' fans on the whole are extremely knowledgeable & astute observers of the game, deserving of much respect. I cant fathom any one of them ever acting subversively in hijacking an exercise of this nature in order to even further elevate their already premier position as the classiest organization in the league. Their not built that way.



Nor do I, and no place for it here on the HOH Board. I didnt participate obviously, but I will next time around... as for C58's initial "suggestion" that started this firestorm, that the Administrators or "Moderators" be non-voting non-particpatory Members, whats the problem with that? Take a vote. Ask for volunteers if its decided for purely clinical reasons and to avoid even a hint of bias or strategic voting, go for it. I dont believe for one second that 70's or TDMM, overpass or Taco influenced, framed, messed around & up in that regard in anyway whatsoever. Just not on. To be highly commended for their execution. Job well done.
Please......

Wait, is this sarcasm? Of course.

Canadiens, classiest organization in the league, pretty funny.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 05:47 PM
  #73
ContrarianGoaltender
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It can actually have an inflationary effect on save percentage by creating 3 or 4 extraneous shots that subsequently get saved. 3 or 4 saves having a greater impact on one's save percentage than 1 single save does. Rinse and repeat.
I guess it could, theoretically. In the real world, though, it did not.

I'll echo the others who say that the suggestion that Dominik Hasek inflated his save percentage from facing more rebound chances is completely evidence-free, and a major example of the problems of rating goalies subjectively based on their style rather than their results.

First of all, if Hasek created that many extra shots on a regular basis, he would have faced far more shots against than the other goalies he played with. This was not the case.

1990-91: Hasek 28.6, Backups 27.3
1991-92: Hasek 24.4, Backups 25.0
1992-93: Hasek 30.2, Backups 32.0
1993-94: Hasek 27.7, Backups 31.5
1994-95: Hasek 30.3, Backups 28.4
1995-96: Hasek 35.3, Backups 34.7
1996-97: Hasek 32.4, Backups 34.5
1997-98: Hasek 30.6, Backups 31.2
1998-99: Hasek 29.5, Backups 29.2
1999-00: Hasek 27.2, Backups 26.1
2000-01: Hasek 26.5, Backups 27.2
2001-02: Hasek 25.6, Backups 27.0
2003-04: Hasek 23.8, Backups 26.3
2005-06: Hasek 27.9, Backups 28.8
2006-07: Hasek 23.5, Backups 26.0
2007-08: Hasek 21.8, Backups 24.7

The overall average shots faced per 60 minutes are 28.3 for Hasek and 28.1 for his backups. If you weight the backup numbers by Hasek's minutes played in each season, their combined number ends up being 29.7, or 1.4 more than Hasek per 60 minutes. Either way, Hasek did not face a lot of additional shots compared to his teammates, which completely defeats the claim being made about him regularly creating 3 or 4 additional chances at a pop.

Secondly, shots on rebounds are extraordinarily dangerous scoring chances. Read this article for a sample of rebound shot data that estimates the shooting percentage of rebound shots in the NHL at around 27%. Hasek's career save percentage was .922, which means that for rebound saves to help his save percentage, opposing shooters would have had to shoot 7.7% or worse on rebound shots. Is it plausible that Hasek was that far ahead of average over his entire career on those types of chances? In my view, even though Hasek was surely the best ever at dealing with those chances, the observed margins in goaltending do not come close to supporting anyone being that far ahead of everyone else.

Thirdly, the number of shots on goal from rebounds in the NHL is actually relatively rare, around 3 for both teams combined per game in the samples I've seen. It can depend a bit on the exact definition of a rebound shot, but it's probably unlikely that Hasek was facing more than 4 rebound shots against in the entire game, much less in the course of one play. Most of the time the defensive team clears the rebound or ties up the opposing team's sticks so they don't get a shot off. And that makes sense, because even with a great goalie in net rebound shots are very likely to go in the net.

From his list and from the discussions, I don't think C1958 was necessarily inconsistent with his rankings, but I do strongly disagree with the relative rankings of different goalie skill sets that informed his votes, because I don't see them as being supportable by the statistical evidence. By far the most important part of goaltending is making the first save, and when you do it as well as Hasek did it (Taco McArthur has him at 80-90 goals above replacement level at his peak), it becomes hard to justify claiming that other skills make up the gap.

ContrarianGoaltender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 05:50 PM
  #74
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Canadiens, classiest organization in the league, pretty funny.
Really... and who would you rate above them on just about any level you'd care to measure it by? Boston, Detroit, New York, Chicago & most assuredly Toronto are right out of the running; not a single Expansion Franchise come or gone remotely approaching the Habs' in that respect. Name one team with their record, from developing players through the old Form system & Drafts, any one that's won as much, treats its alumni with the kind of respect deserving.... g'head, dig.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 06:47 PM
  #75
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,885
vCash: 500
Assumptions and Data

Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
I guess it could, theoretically. In the real world, though, it did not.

I'll echo the others who say that the suggestion that Dominik Hasek inflated his save percentage from facing more rebound chances is completely evidence-free, and a major example of the problems of rating goalies subjectively based on their style rather than their results.

First of all, if Hasek created that many extra shots on a regular basis, he would have faced far more shots against than the other goalies he played with. This was not the case.

1990-91: Hasek 28.6, Backups 27.3
1991-92: Hasek 24.4, Backups 25.0
1992-93: Hasek 30.2, Backups 32.0
1993-94: Hasek 27.7, Backups 31.5
1994-95: Hasek 30.3, Backups 28.4
1995-96: Hasek 35.3, Backups 34.7
1996-97: Hasek 32.4, Backups 34.5
1997-98: Hasek 30.6, Backups 31.2
1998-99: Hasek 29.5, Backups 29.2
1999-00: Hasek 27.2, Backups 26.1
2000-01: Hasek 26.5, Backups 27.2
2001-02: Hasek 25.6, Backups 27.0
2003-04: Hasek 23.8, Backups 26.3
2005-06: Hasek 27.9, Backups 28.8
2006-07: Hasek 23.5, Backups 26.0
2007-08: Hasek 21.8, Backups 24.7

The overall average shots faced per 60 minutes are 28.3 for Hasek and 28.1 for his backups. If you weight the backup numbers by Hasek's minutes played in each season, their combined number ends up being 29.7, or 1.4 more than Hasek per 60 minutes. Either way, Hasek did not face a lot of additional shots compared to his teammates, which completely defeats the claim being made about him regularly creating 3 or 4 additional chances at a pop.

Secondly, shots on rebounds are extraordinarily dangerous scoring chances. Read this article for a sample of rebound shot data that estimates the shooting percentage of rebound shots in the NHL at around 27%. Hasek's career save percentage was .922, which means that for rebound saves to help his save percentage, opposing shooters would have had to shoot 7.7% or worse on rebound shots. Is it plausible that Hasek was that far ahead of average over his entire career on those types of chances? In my view, even though Hasek was surely the best ever at dealing with those chances, the observed margins in goaltending do not come close to supporting anyone being that far ahead of everyone else.

Thirdly, the number of shots on goal from rebounds in the NHL is actually relatively rare, around 3 for both teams combined per game in the samples I've seen. It can depend a bit on the exact definition of a rebound shot, but it's probably unlikely that Hasek was facing more than 4 rebound shots against in the entire game, much less in the course of one play. Most of the time the defensive team clears the rebound or ties up the opposing team's sticks so they don't get a shot off. And that makes sense, because even with a great goalie in net rebound shots are very likely to go in the net.

From his list and from the discussions, I don't think C1958 was necessarily inconsistent with his rankings, but I do strongly disagree with the relative rankings of different goalie skill sets that informed his votes, because I don't see them as being supportable by the statistical evidence. By far the most important part of goaltending is making the first save, and when you do it as well as Hasek did it (Taco McArthur has him at 80-90 goals above replacement level at his peak), it becomes hard to justify claiming that other skills make up the gap.
Your presentation is based on a number of assumptions and pulls data from different eras.

Hasek played in the NHL from 1990 thru the dead puck era thru 2007-08. Your rebound data is from the 2007-08 era and does not reflect how the game was played pre the 2004-05 lockout. Rules changed significantly post lockout. The 2 second allowance is very generous for rebound goal since it covers the complete offensive zone as opposed to the slot.

You are operating under three assumptions that have not been vetted or supported.

1.) that the other goalies on Hasek's team were better than him in terms of rebound control. If you look at his teammates, only two were within 30 spots of him in this project - Belfour and Fuhr. No claim has been made that Belfour and/or Fuhr were better than Hasek in terms of rebound control. In Buffalo, after Fuhr was traded Hasek's back-ups were rookies - Biron or career minor league veterans - Shields, Roloson. Weaker rebound control in all instances.

2.) assuming that the data vs 1990 back-ups has meaning in terms of comparisons against other goalies vying for the top 40 spots and who retired before 1990. The only meaning it may have is in comparison to Roy and Brodeur. But you did not produce the numbers for Roy and Brodeur. Compare Hasek's numbers vs Brodeur and you will see the rebound control difference.Then watch game films to compare the statistical with the visual. Brodeur is the only goalie from the post 1990 era whose rebound control would compare with the pre 1990 goalies.

3.) your data would be interesting if it factored in the opposition. Are you assuming that against Hasek the opposition had more or fewer shoots, than against the rest of the league teams.

Interesting but far from complete.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:29 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.