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HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - foame

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02-08-2013, 12:21 AM
  #1
seventieslord
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HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - foame

Round 1 list

# Name
1 Dominik Hasek
2 Patrick Roy
3 Jacques Plante
4 Martin Brodeur
5 Terry Sawchuk
6 Turk Broda
7 Glenn Hall
8 Vladislav Tretiak
9 Bernie Parent
10 Grant Fuhr
11 Ken Dryden
12 Clint Benedict
13 Johnny Bower
14 Hap Holmes
15 Ed Belfour
16 Gump Worsley
17 Jiri Holecek
18 Bill Durnan
19 Billy Smith
20 Frank Brimsek
21 Alec Connell
22 Hugh Lehman
23 Georges Vezina
24 Mike Richter
25 Henrik Lundqvist
26 Cam Ward
27 Tim Thomas
28 Jean-Sebastien Giguere
29 Charlie Gardiner
30 Chris Osgood
31 Dave Kerr
32 Miikka Kiprusoff
33 George Hainsworth
34 Ron Hextall
35 Harry Lumley
36 Tony Esposito
37 Gerry Cheevers
38 Seth Martin
39 Mike Liut
40 Vladimir Dzurilla
41 Leif Holmqvist
42 Jose Theodore
43 Ryan Miller
44 Arturs Irbe
45 Percy LeSueur
46 Tommy Salo
47 Chuck Rayner
48 Tiny Thompson
49 Pekka Lindmark
50 Roy Worters
51 Curtis Joseph
52 Rogie Vachon
53 Chico Resch
54 Jiri Kralik
55 Al Rollins
56 John Ross Roach
57 Tom Barrasso
58 Jon Casey
59 Viktor Konovalenko
60 Nikolai Khabibulin

Players on the top-40 not ranked:

Ed Giacomin
Roberto Luongo
John Vanbiesbrouck

Players on the top-40 ranked below #50:

Curtis Joseph (51)
Rogie Vachon (52)
Tom Barrasso (57)

Players exclusive to this list and no more than two others:

Cam Ward (26) - one other list had Ward
Jose Theodore (42) – Theodore made one other list
Tommy Salo (46)
Jon Casey (58)

Players ranked highest on this list:

Turk Broda (6)
Grant Fuhr (10)
Hap Holmes (14)
Gump Worsley (16)
Mike Richter (24)
Henrik Lundqvist (25)
Cam Ward (26)
Jean-Sebastien Giguere (28)
Chris Osgood (30)
Miikka Kiprusoff (32)
Ron Hextall (34)
Leif Holmqvist (41)
Jose Theodore (42)
Ryan Miller (43)
Arturs Irbe (44)

Players ranked lowest on this list:

Frank Brimsek (20)
Charlie Gardiner (29)
Tony Esposito (36)
Chuck Rayner (47)
Tiny Thompson (48)
Roy Worters (50)
Curtis Joseph (51)
Rogie Vachon (52)
Tom Barrasso (57)
Viktor Konovalenko (59)

Joseph, Barrasso, and Rayner were all left off one list. Konovalenko was left off of 18 lists.

Round 2 voting record:

Round1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th
1HasekRoyPlanteBrodeurSawchukHallDryden 
2BrodeurSawchukTretiakBrodaparentBenedictDrydenBrimsek
3BrodaParentBowerVezinaBenedictBrimsekGardinerBelfour
4        
5        
6FuhrHolmesSmithWorsleyLehmanVachonGiacominHainsworth
7FuhrHolmesWorsleyThomasVachonConnellLumley Barrasso
8 HolmesThomasVachonConnellCheeversJosephDzurillaBarrasso
9 ThomasVachonRichterLundqvistConnellCheeversDzurillaLuongo
10ThomasRichterLundqvistHextallConnellKerrKiprusoffDzurilla

Round 2 Participation Record

RoundRankPosts
1392
2301
3N/A0
4N/A0
5N/A0
6N/A0
7N/A0
8N/A0
9N/A0
10N/A0
Total223


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-08-2013 at 12:37 AM.
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Old
02-08-2013, 01:23 AM
  #2
seekritdude
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Bummed irbe isnt on more lists.. come on how he played for some of the worst teams in the history of the league literally. I dont think he gets a enough credit.. To bad he never got to play for better teams.

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02-08-2013, 10:32 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Now that's an interesting list!

Hunter Thompsonesque.

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02-08-2013, 11:48 AM
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unknown33
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I don't understand this list and voting.
Odd placings - the farthest away from consensus I've seen - still the poster has a grand total of three posts in the discussion to explain his reasons.

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02-08-2013, 12:49 PM
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foame
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First, I'd like to thank TheDevilMadeMe, seventieslord, overpass and all other participating members for the time and effort they spent on this project.
Secondly, the main reasons that I wasn't involved in the discussion was time and preparation. The time zone-differential made me miss the heated debates that would cool down when I time read them, so I focused the time I had available to fully read and weight each voters argument.
Thirdly, I think it's important for the voters to share their thoughts and reasoning behind their votes, specially those that weren't as active in debating as other and since I was one them, I'll hereby explain how I viewed and ranked the goaltenders.


Let me just say that I view these HoH-lists as continuing process of iteration, and with that I mean that in time they'll continue to get better and better as the voters have more material to work with, more knowledge of the players and more experience of the project in whole. These lists serves as a superb guide for those that searches for information about certain goaltenders rank among the greatest (top 10, is he better/worse than X? and so on).

With that said, I will start by explaining my round 1-list.
I prepared for this project by making a standard criteria of what I was looking for in a "top 40"-goalie, so my list and my votes would be cohesive throughout the voting-process. I think this is important to do, else you end up judging different goaltenders by different criterias.
Though I should say that I don't think I did very well in this. Like other voters, I had some goalies that I was very unsure of, the further down the list it went, the more I shuffled and tweaked it.

Here's my initial criteria:
  1. Tournament consistency (SC, WC, OG, Euro)
  2. Winning potential(how much of a factor the goaltender were in an important game)
  3. Historical significance, style and character
  4. My eyes (when viewing older games)
  5. A careful prognosis on the active goalies*
*I think it's important to put a distinct criteria for how voters should view active goaltenders. It's clear that people views this differently and it can have great effect on the end results. In my opinion the Eligibility part used in this project ("Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based on what they already did") was too subjective and I would prefer if a line was drawn.

I also adjusted my round 1-list so it would fit what I thought was the pool of goaltenders available. I sorted my initial list by era, which I then compared to a pool-chart that Czech Your Math posted here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1248145.
This is how it looked:


This should hopefully explain why I had some active goalies ranked that high.

Over the years that I've read about hockey and by watching the playoffs more closely, I've come to the conclusion that most players and management involved in hockey rank and value the attribute of winning to a greater extent than journalists and other spectators. I think this attribute, clutchness, mental toughness or whatever it's called, is more important for goalies than for anyone else, since they play the largest role in the team. Therefor I chose to rank winning goalies or goalies with playoff success like Broda, Fuhr, Holmes, Worsley, Richter, Ward, Hextall higher than normal and non-winning goalies like Esposito, Joseph and others lower than normal.

I value International success, since the games there is a lot less forgiven for weak plays than a random regular season game (specially those that in one way or another is pretty much meaningless).

During the voting, I reviewed each goaltenders playoff-record, which team they won against and which team they lost to and calculated these factors in my ranking. It is extremely hard to separate team-success from individual success when it comes to goaltenders, I therefor chose to be more sceptical to those that where only succesful with a team loaded with other highly estemed players.

With that said I probably had a couple of goalies ranked too low, most notably Esposito, Gardiner, Joseph and Luongo

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02-08-2013, 12:53 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Though my initial list is probably a patchwork job also, I'm a tiny bit surprised that this list was accepted, respectfully.

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02-08-2013, 02:22 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Though my initial list is probably a patchwork job also, I'm a tiny bit surprised that this list was accepted, respectfully.
It's a little off the wall, but that's not enough to get rejected.

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02-08-2013, 02:51 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It's a little off the wall, but that's not enough to get rejected.
Oh I guess I didn't really realize what a rejected list looks like then. Whoops, sorry.

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02-08-2013, 02:58 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Though my initial list is probably a patchwork job also, I'm a tiny bit surprised that this list was accepted, respectfully.
He sent us a fairly detailed explanation for his list and criteria when he submitted it, which assumed it would be unconventional. We passed the explanation along to the screeners. It may or may not have mattered. It seemed helpful to know that (for example), the omission of Giacomin was done with forethought, and wasn't careless.

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02-08-2013, 04:37 PM
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unknown33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foame View Post
Secondly, the main reasons that I wasn't involved in the discussion was time and preparation. The time zone-differential made me miss the heated debates that would cool down when I time read them, so I focused the time I had available to fully read and weight each voters argument.
I see but it would have been interesting to hear all of your arguments during the project imo.

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02-08-2013, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foame View Post
This should hopefully explain why I had some active goalies ranked that high.
I have no problem at all with rating active goalies high based on a talent pool argument, it's just that the order of them seems to be based primarily on trophies and Stanley Cups. Ward, Giguere and Osgood in the top 30 is definitely going way off the board, and the guys with lots of elite seasons but fewer trophies and less team success like Joseph, Luongo and Vanbiesbrouck seem to be very underrated.

Looks like you did put a lot of thought into your list which is commendable, and there's nothing wrong with diversity of opinion, I just think you should strongly reconsider the weighting you gave to team success for the various goalies. Just because goalies are often judged for the performance of their teams certainly does not mean that they should be.

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02-08-2013, 06:34 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I definitely appreciated having an unconventional but well-thought out list. I honestly wish we could have gotten more like this, rather than all the cookie-cutter lists by ATDers (I can say that, as I'm an ATDer myself).

I do agree with CG though that I think you put at least a little too much emphasis on team success.

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