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Top American Born Goaltenders?

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Old
02-08-2013, 04:59 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
What has Dunham common with BGL? Why are you mixing apples with oranges?
Please stop bringing Laraque into all threads with my posts. It's called offtopic. Thanks.

Indeed..it's your list. If you feel Dunham is #7 or so..fine. His problem was that he couldnt live with his potential. He never translated his talent to NHL level. Jim Carey did more in two seasons than him.
Jim Carey the 2 good seasons and than a complete flop, that Jim Carey?

Like I said and if you would pay attention, the NHL is not the only place you judge a player. He had an outstanding college, AHL and very good international play with some spectacular WJC tourneys.

And BTW, Dunham has almost 2 times more victories than Carey ever played. I don't understand why you put some much value in a peak season over a length of career. Does this mean Paul Coffey is better than Ray Bourque because his peaks are better?

Carey is considered a major flop.

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02-08-2013, 05:08 PM
  #27
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I would still say its Brimsek.

But Tom Barrasso has a case as well.

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02-08-2013, 05:08 PM
  #28
vadim sharifijanov
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maybe i'm being thick here but what's BGL?

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02-08-2013, 05:57 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
maybe i'm being thick here but what's BGL?
I'm being antagonistic. I brought something in from another thread that I was arguing against with him. Supposed to have been a quick jab not a carry over, just an example of the his history of choosing players for strange reasons.

BGL was Big George Laraque's nickname.

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02-08-2013, 05:58 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
maybe i'm being thick here but what's BGL?
Bryzgalov? Not even pertinent, germane to the conversation.

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02-08-2013, 06:01 PM
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Bryzgalov? Not even pertinent, germane to the conversation.


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02-08-2013, 06:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The top 6 is easy for those of us who participated in the recent goalie ranking project. Has Quick already surpassed Karakas?
My reason was 1944-45 was pretty rough and I didn't really check into Karakas's full all-star voting record to see what else was there.

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02-08-2013, 06:39 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
I'm being antagonistic. I brought something in from another thread that I was arguing against with him. Supposed to have been a quick jab not a carry over, just an example of the his history of choosing players for strange reasons.

BGL was Big George Laraque's nickname.
In the future, please refrain from derailing threads with completely unrelated arguments. It confuses everyone, including me.

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02-08-2013, 06:40 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
My reason was 1944-45 was pretty rough and I didn't really check into Karakas's full all-star voting record to see what else was there.
Yeah, I can't say for sure whether Quick surpassed him or not, and honestly don't care enough to check myself right now.

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02-08-2013, 06:55 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
... Laraque. Got it. Totally OT. Dont think TDMM's real impressed though.

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02-08-2013, 07:20 PM
  #36
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... Laraque. Got it. Totally OT. Dont think TDMM's real impressed though.
I can't win them all. Honestly it wasn't a total OT. I was tying in strange reasoning for picking one player over another. He did the same thing on a different top 10 list.

Even if Dunham is not top ten, which is a debate. You see his name up there by alot of people. I am not saying he is good but compared to other US goalies he is up there. That's more commentary on US goalies than it is anything else.

It is changing though, the US can now boast some of the best goaltending in the world now. But this is recent and not the norm. There are probably 6 US goalies that are going to fly by guys like Dunham but they need a few more years in IMO. 141 NHL wins for a career is nothing to sneeze at (relative to US goaltending and no other country) especially if you consider the lousy teams the guy had to play on. One being the expansion team; the Predators. He is most certainly better than Jim Carey.

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02-08-2013, 07:53 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
That's more commentary on US goalies than it is anything else.... It is changing though, the US can now boast some of the best goaltending in the world... But this is recent and not the norm....
Well, you know, its interesting because I played against US born goalies in various tournaments from Pee Wee through Bantam in the States, attended Hockey Camps with several Americans doing same in the late 60's, and I can tell you, those players were damn good. Every bit as good and in several cases better than their Canadian counterparts at the same age. They didnt face the same quality of forward or shooter during their regular seasons and had a chance to develop a lot of confidence (goaltending is about 90% mental), work on their games for which much can be said.

Unfortunately as a result, Scouts from the Junior leagues discounted their abilities. They went undrafted or even invited to try out, going the routes of High School & NCAA, all but ignored. Some very serious talent never given the opportunity to shine at the then as it was designated AA amateur level, followed by Jr. B and A. Definitely ahead of most of their contemporaries playing forward or defence in places like Erie, Boston, Chicago & elsewhere, more than capable of playing AA in Montreal, Toronto or elsewhere followed by Junior. Big mistake IMO by hockey intel of the era. I was one of the best for my age 2 yrs up or down for my birth year in Ontario, and I played against guys in the US who were equal to me, a couple probably better at certain aspects of the game technically than I could ever hope to be.

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02-08-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Well, you know, its interesting because I played against US born goalies in various tournaments from Pee Wee through Bantam in the States, attended Hockey Camps with several Americans doing same in the late 60's, and I can tell you, those players were damn good. Every bit as good and in several cases better than their Canadian counterparts at the same age. They didnt face the same quality of forward or shooter during their regular seasons and had a chance to develop a lot of confidence (goaltending is about 90% mental), work on their games for which much can be said.

Unfortunately as a result, Scouts from the Junior leagues discounted their abilities. They went undrafted or even invited to try out, going the routes of High School & NCAA, all but ignored. Some very serious talent never given the opportunity to shine at the then as it was designated AA amateur level, followed by Jr. B and A. Definitely ahead of most of their contemporaries playing forward or defence in places like Erie, Boston, Chicago & elsewhere, more than capable of playing AA in Montreal, Toronto or elsewhere followed by Junior. Big mistake IMO by hockey intel of the era. I was one of the best for my age 2 yrs up or down for my birth year in Ontario, and I played against guys in the US who were equal to me, a couple probably better at certain aspects of the game technically than I could ever hope to be.
Wasn't much different when I played in tourneys in Canada in the early 80s. But by that time, Yank players were getting more respect but not much. On my team, Tim Sweeney made it out and into the NHL. We played against that first wave of great Americans to make it, ie, Roenick, Amonte, Stevens, McEachern, etc..

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02-08-2013, 09:13 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Wasn't much different when I played in tourneys in Canada in the early 80s. But by that time, Yank players were getting more respect but not much....
Ya, its peculiar, a dichotomy, xenophobic. Not just US born players but so too those from the Maritimes & Western Canada, and I mean from a Goaltending perspective. If you trace the history of a lot of the so called "Greats", they apprenticed for years (Johnny Bower for example) in the minors, the excuse particularly so during the 06 era that there were "better's". Well, I beg to differ. Generations of potentially game changing talent in the crease subjugated & ignored for spurious reasons. Relegated to the IHL, AHL... No real understanding be it the 30's, 50's, 70's or 90's as to the psychological & constitutional aspects of playing the position that breeds team success.

Perhaps Im biased being an old Goalie myself, but success starts from the crease out. Its your last line of defence. A kid coming up slowly in a place like Duluth or wherever would "get" that pretty quickly given the kind of critical thought one would entertain in backstopping a team, be it mediocre or one blessed with talent. Playing at a slower level, say 'A' or 'B' level as an amateur beneficial. Stepping it up, once you hit Junior, the speed & size is absolutely beyond pronounced, ameliorated however if youve nailed the basics, the fundamentals; down pat. Easy-peasy, as its a matter of attitude, self control, aggression. Never say die. Keep fighting until the puck crosses the red line, doing all you can legally & illegally to make sure it doesnt. Confidence. Science meets art. It was a "zone". Quite the trip.

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02-09-2013, 06:14 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Jim Carey the 2 good seasons and than a complete flop, that Jim Carey?

Like I said and if you would pay attention, the NHL is not the only place you judge a player. He had an outstanding college, AHL and very good international play with some spectacular WJC tourneys.

And BTW, Dunham has almost 2 times more victories than Carey ever played. I don't understand why you put some much value in a peak season over a length of career. Does this mean Paul Coffey is better than Ray Bourque because his peaks are better?

Carey is considered a major flop.
How many american goalies have won (modern) Vezina Trophy? From top of my head: Barrasso, Vanbiesbrouck, Thomas, Miller and Carey. How many of them made it to the 1st AST?
Can Dunham's floating around in averageness outperforms such huge accomplishment no matter circumstances?? Jim Carey is one and only goalie which was able to win Vezina during reign of Hasek. Such greats like Roy or Brodeur were not able to do it. (I'm not saying Carey was better than them, so donīt send me to do research again, I remember that).
And it's not like Dunham played 10 more times games like Carey, actually Dunham did not play in many either.
All Dunham's individual awards are based on stats (lowest GAA), Carey's awards are based on overall performance (best goalies awards, all-star teams). You have mentioned Dunham's pre-NHL success, Carey didn't come out of black hole either, he had a serious success in AHL too.

Carey's career was short, but he shone bright, Dunham is completly unremarkable goalie. Give him 10 years and very few people will remember him.

Carey > Dunham

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02-09-2013, 08:54 AM
  #41
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Olympics

The USA has a long and strong history of excellent goaltending at the Winter Olympics. Jack McCartan and Jim Craig have been mentioned but the following should be added.

1924 Frenchy Lacroix, succeeded Georges Vezina, although briefly with the Montreal Canadiens.

1956 Willard Ikola, silver medal team, named best goalie.

1972 Mike Curran, silver medalist team, outstanding performance.

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02-09-2013, 10:49 AM
  #42
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More love needed here for Craig Anderson.

American goalies of the future: John Gibson & Eric Hartzell

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02-09-2013, 02:16 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
How many american goalies have won (modern) Vezina Trophy? From top of my head: Barrasso, Vanbiesbrouck, Thomas, Miller and Carey. How many of them made it to the 1st AST?
Can Dunham's floating around in averageness outperforms such huge accomplishment no matter circumstances?? Jim Carey is one and only goalie which was able to win Vezina during reign of Hasek. Such greats like Roy or Brodeur were not able to do it. (I'm not saying Carey was better than them, so donīt send me to do research again, I remember that).
And it's not like Dunham played 10 more times games like Carey, actually Dunham did not play in many either.
All Dunham's individual awards are based on stats (lowest GAA), Carey's awards are based on overall performance (best goalies awards, all-star teams). You have mentioned Dunham's pre-NHL success, Carey didn't come out of black hole either, he had a serious success in AHL too.

Carey's career was short, but he shone bright, Dunham is completly unremarkable goalie. Give him 10 years and very few people will remember him.

Carey > Dunham
Surprising for a Euro to ignore international which you are doing. Either that are you are ignoring what I have said about Dunham. You are only talking and looking at NHL play, last time I checked, players did more than just the NHL and in the case of Dunham, you need to look at his play in NCAA, AHL and with team USA to understand why he is mentioned.

Part two to this is, I agree Dunham is nothing special but look at the list of US goalies and you see why he is there (for the time being). He is going to be replaced and shorty, the US has a ton of great goalies coming up.

Stop it with one season Carey, Just please. It's like your rational for BGL, you take 2 minutes of a players career and try to claim they are the best. He shined for one fluke season, Carey sucks. End of story.

Anyone else think Jim Carey is a great goalie??? Deserves mention in this thread because I haven't seen one other person arguing for him.

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02-09-2013, 03:45 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Surprising for a Euro to ignore international which you are doing. Either that are you are ignoring what I have said about Dunham. You are only talking and looking at NHL play, last time I checked, players did more than just the NHL and in the case of Dunham, you need to look at his play in NCAA, AHL and with team USA to understand why he is mentioned.

Part two to this is, I agree Dunham is nothing special but look at the list of US goalies and you see why he is there (for the time being). He is going to be replaced and shorty, the US has a ton of great goalies coming up.

Stop it with one season Carey, Just please. It's like your rational for BGL, you take 2 minutes of a players career and try to claim they are the best. He shined for one fluke season, Carey sucks. End of story.

Anyone else think Jim Carey is a great goalie??? Deserves mention in this thread because I haven't seen one other person arguing for him.
Two people have mentioned Mike Dunham, and a third explained why he doesn't belong at all. Begbee was then a 4th person talking about why he doesn't belong and he wasn't really considered for my list of 10 either.

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02-09-2013, 04:02 PM
  #45
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personally I think Barrasso has been a bit overrated on here, but thats my opinion. I loved how he came into the league as a teenager out of highschool something I still today find astonishing. but if he wasnt a part of those loaded Penguins teams would he be regarded as high?? I just think Richter did more with less and Thomas was elite at his position for multiple years.

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02-09-2013, 04:13 PM
  #46
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1. Brimsek
2. Barrasso
3. Thomas
4. Vanbiesbrouck
5. Richter
6. Miller
7. Carey
8. Quick
9. Casey
10. Hebert or Karakas

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02-09-2013, 04:43 PM
  #47
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am i forgetting things... what did dunham do in international competition? (legit question, not being snarky.)

i remember him on the stacked '92 WJC team, where the ferraro twins were the stars, outshining tkachuk, rolston, lachance, pat peak, ryan sittler, and a bunch of other high picks.

some minor league journeyman who was never heard from again was the surprise star goalie on the '92 olympic team, right?

and then when i think of the other high moments in team USA history during dunham's career, it's richter in '96 and '02.

as i recall, dunham set records at maine and was extremely highly touted. to the point where i think people were expecting dunham, not brodeur (who was a first round pick), to be the guy for the devils over the next decade. but i don't want take anything away from dunham's college heroics, but that maine team was a powerhouse, led by paul kariya having the greatest college hockey year ever. maine had six of the top ten scorers in hockey east and won almost every game.

i don't know the real story but according to wikipedia there was controversy about the stackedness of that team:

Quote:
There was a crackdown on many big college hockey programs during the 1990s for playing players that were deemed ineligible. Maine was one of these teams, and they suffered consequences including forfeited losses both retroactively and in future seasons. Some questioned the legitimacy of the 1993 title, but the NCAA did not touch it because the players in question were from previous seasons and did not participate in Maine's championship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_B...l_Championship

in their ridiculous NCAA championship year at maine, it should also be noted that dunham had fewer wins in more games played than fellow US goalie and future NHL journeyman garth snow.

which is all to say that it seems like if you add up dunham's unspectacular NHL career with the international and college play that i remember (holding out for the possibility that he did some crazy things at the WC that i don't remember), hebert with his multiple fringe vezina finishes and casey with that one playoff run are ahead of dunham given that they all stuck in the NHL for roughly the same amount of time.

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02-10-2013, 02:34 PM
  #48
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Two people have mentioned Mike Dunham, and a third explained why he doesn't belong at all. Begbee was then a 4th person talking about why he doesn't belong and he wasn't really considered for my list of 10 either.
Understood but not quite what I asked. I asked if anyone thinks Carey is a great goalie. Take away 1 and 1/2 season and he is just awful. If we are going by stats, guess what? Vesa Toskala has better NHL stats. And I don't know anyone that calls Toskala a good goalie.

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02-10-2013, 02:44 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Understood but not quite what I asked. I asked if anyone thinks Carey is a great goalie. Take away 1 and 1/2 season and he is just awful. If we are going by stats, guess what? Vesa Toskala has better NHL stats. And I don't know anyone that calls Toskala a good goalie.
Nope a slightly more remarkable goalie than Mike Dunham, but both are unremarkable.

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02-10-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
am i forgetting things... what did dunham do in international competition? (legit question, not being snarky.)

i remember him on the stacked '92 WJC team, where the ferraro twins were the stars, outshining tkachuk, rolston, lachance, pat peak, ryan sittler, and a bunch of other high picks.

some minor league journeyman who was never heard from again was the surprise star goalie on the '92 olympic team, right?

and then when i think of the other high moments in team USA history during dunham's career, it's richter in '96 and '02.

as i recall, dunham set records at maine and was extremely highly touted. to the point where i think people were expecting dunham, not brodeur (who was a first round pick), to be the guy for the devils over the next decade. but i don't want take anything away from dunham's college heroics, but that maine team was a powerhouse, led by paul kariya having the greatest college hockey year ever. maine had six of the top ten scorers in hockey east and won almost every game.

i don't know the real story but according to wikipedia there was controversy about the stackedness of that team:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_B...l_Championship

in their ridiculous NCAA championship year at maine, it should also be noted that dunham had fewer wins in more games played than fellow US goalie and future NHL journeyman garth snow.

which is all to say that it seems like if you add up dunham's unspectacular NHL career with the international and college play that i remember (holding out for the possibility that he did some crazy things at the WC that i don't remember), hebert with his multiple fringe vezina finishes and casey with that one playoff run are ahead of dunham given that they all stuck in the NHL for roughly the same amount of time.
Was the goalie for the 1992 WJC where the US got their second medal ever and a surprise medal at that, only losing in the tourney to eventual winner CIS. Played in several Olympics helping win a silver in one, few awards in the AHL, first US goalie to win the Jennings trophy (kind of bogus I know). First you can't suck and be chosen for the US national team and he was chosen regularly for Team USA for the Olys and WC, WJC.

Again, he isn't anything special but considering the amount of US goalies, he is up there....for now.

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