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Old
07-05-2006, 12:44 PM
  #76
Art Vandelay
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Cole signing for 4 million is better news for us then the Tanguay signing.

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07-05-2006, 12:46 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharksDownUnder View Post
Naslund and Cooke for Gagne & 2 round draft pick
  1. Gives you a player to leverage (resign) of Forsberg with... Naslund and him are buddies from school days
  2. Gives you a very versatile RW/LW in Cooke that can play in many situations and he's cheap. (could play on the 2/3rd lines as you require... even 1st line if you need an emergency filler)
  3. Naslund would score 60 goals with Forsberg....
  4. Cooke's good for 15+ and can agitate as well ... for no extra cost
If the Flyers cant afford to sign Gagne for $5m, how are they going to take on Naslunds more expensive salary as well as Cookes?

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07-05-2006, 12:46 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
we just need to get the deal done... if someone puts a 4.5 million dollar contract in front of Gagne, we match... if they go to 5 Million, i think you take the 4 first rounders.

Mostly in part that if you trade 2 of them you can get something really good.

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07-05-2006, 12:53 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
As for being a clutch performer, I do think that being a clutch performer has some bearing and merit. Some players know when to step it up when they really need to. That's what clutch is all about. It's about stepping up, laying everything on the line, and playing as if the next game is their last. There's a sense of desperation, there's a sense of fear, there's a sense of anger in their play. They do things they normally don't do and as a whole, their elevated level of play brings everyone else up. You don't see that from Gagne. He's not a player that can inspire others around him to play at a high level. That's the thing with Gagne. Good overall player, but just doesn't have that little extra to inspire others or isn't willing to lay it all on the line when the game matters.

You talk about a game six OT goal. Big deal. Gagne has been involved with the team in terms of some of the biggest playoff disappointments. Just remember, 8 years - eliminated in the first round 5 times. There's no clutch ability from Gagne at all. If you're going to talk about clutch as being irrelevant, then someone on here I guess has to talk about clutch being relevant.
clutch doesn't really exist dude... there really isn't such a thing as "stepping up." some athletes are slightly better in "clutch" situations than they are normally, but it is a TINY thing. some players are slightly worse than normal in "clutch" situation... again, it's a small difference. it's rare that you see anyone that has a dramatic difference in their performance against their normal play... so to use the concept of "clutch" in any kind of argument is specious at best, and asinine in reality.

clutch doesn't exist as a factor for 99% of the players in the world... it just doesn't. there is VAST statistical evidence backing that up. you can harp about this concept all you want... but, in the end, you're arguing for the existence of a fairy tale concept. so...

"If you're going to talk about clutch as being irrelevant, then someone on here I guess has to talk about clutch being relevant."

makes absolutely no friggin sense. it isn't a question of whether it's "relevant," it doesn't friggin EXIST in any effective way. if it doesn't exist, it's irrelevant... i do think there are certain aspects to this argument about it that are real and interesting... however, EVEN when you identify a "clutch" player (and they are EXTREMELY rare in statistical breakdown), you're talking about a fractional increase off of their normal ability... to the point it's rarely noticeable.

Mark Grace is, statistically, one of the best clutch-hitter that can be identified... i doubt he's someone that jumps to anyone's mind.

Gagne was involved with a team that went on a rather heroic run to game 7 of the finals... we've been over the flyers palyoff failure dude, you get rebutted and claimed i was crying. The flyers playoff success is just as good, if not better, than anyone you can put them against in the league over that time period.

this year was not a playoff disappointment... if you didn't see that coming with the disarray of the team going into the playoffs, you were blind.

Lehtinen isn't the offensive player that Gagne is. 0.61 ppg v. 0.76 ppg, which is non-trivial. His highest point total is 52... you can say Gagne's last season was a product of Forsberg all you want, but he did pop 66 pts playing without Forsberg. Gagne is a better offensive player, and, maybe, better defensive player than Lehtinen. He's also the first line winger here and would have put up 50 goals if not for injury.

He's worth more than Lehtinen... how much more? that's to be decided. However, based on what Tanguay just received, i wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if Gagne got 4.5 Million.

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07-05-2006, 12:53 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Gagne and his agent, Bob Sauve, will not file for arbitration today.

"We want a long term deal and that is what the Flyers want," Gagne said.

Sauve rejected the Flyers 4-year contract but have submitted their own version which I believe would see Gagne paid between $4.5 million and $5 million per season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=2297

First: It's not from Eklund, it's from Panaccio.

Second: Good news.

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07-05-2006, 12:54 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Mostly in part that if you trade 2 of them you can get something really good.
no one is going to do that... so i wouldn't worry. this is either going to end in a long-term deal, or arbitration.

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07-05-2006, 12:55 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lion of the North View Post
First: It's not from Eklund, it's from Panaccio.

Second: Good news.
it's negotiations... it's fine. everything is fine with Gagne. would you sign the first deal your employer put in front of you without saying, "how about we talk X...?"

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07-05-2006, 12:59 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
it's negotiations... it's fine. everything is fine with Gagne. would you sign the first deal your employer put in front of you without saying, "how about we talk X...?"
I'm not actually worried, just trying to calm the masses.





With the current unemplyment rate in Sweden i probably would sign my employers first offer...

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07-05-2006, 01:10 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Without hesitation, Pitkanen. Pitkanen is already the best defenseman this team has, which makes he more important than Gagne. Plus, Pitkanen has the potential to develop into one of the best defenseman in the NHL, if he isn't there already. Gagne is a good player, but he's not, and likely never will be, elite.
What's interesting about this "Gagne" thread is what's being said in it about Pitkanen. What's being said over and over here is that, while Gagne may be very good, Pitkanen is essentially indispensible.

If I'm Joni and reading this, I'm turning down the Flyers' initial offer unless it's at $3M or better.

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07-05-2006, 02:05 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Without hesitation, Pitkanen. Pitkanen is already the best defenseman this team has, which makes he more important than Gagne. Plus, Pitkanen has the potential to develop into one of the best defenseman in the NHL, if he isn't there already. Gagne is a good player, but he's not, and likely never will be, elite.



I kind of agree. I think Gagne is a good all-around player for sure, but he's not a "great" player. The problem lays in the fact that I don't believe Gagne is an 80 player without a centerman like Forsberg. Someone will reply and say "Well Gagne scored 66 points before he had an injury and Hitchcock put chains on him yada, yada." I just don't see him as an 80 point player with out Peter. Just look at how Gagne played while Forsberg was out with injury. He was still good, but was he that offensive lightning bolt that he was with Forsberg? Of course not. He was pretty "meh." "Well duh, he's gonna be worse without Forsberg...who wouldn't be?" someone might say. Well, truly "great" players are still able to create offensive chances even if they're playing with a lesser centerman. I'm not saying he's a bad player, because he's actually good all-around player, but I really don't want to see Clarke dole out loads of money to him, because Gagne would owe quite of a bit of it to Mr. Forsberg.


Doesn't make him clutch. I noticed much of the same as BCF16. I saw too much firing of the puck into the goalie's logo and too few clutch goals.
I am that someone. Gagne does not need Forsberg, he needs a very good playmaking center, which we do not have outside of Forsberg. Richards may be, but wasnt last year. 66 points in the year he scored them is equivalent to 80 in the new NHL IMO. Gagne is worth $4.5.

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07-05-2006, 03:05 PM
  #86
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Good news

Quote:
Gagne Won't File

Just got off the phone with Simon Gagne, who is in Quebec for his golf tournament tomorrow.

Gagne and his agent, Bob Sauve, will not file for arbitration today.

"We want a long term deal and that is what the Flyers want," Gagne said.

Sauve rejected the Flyers 4-year contract but have submitted their own version which I believe would see Gagne paid between $4.5 million and $5 million per season.
http://http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=2297

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07-05-2006, 03:36 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SharksDownUnder View Post
Naslund and Cooke for Gagne & 2 round draft pick
  1. Gives you a player to leverage (resign) of Forsberg with... Naslund and him are buddies from school days
  2. Gives you a very versatile RW/LW in Cooke that can play in many situations and he's cheap. (could play on the 2/3rd lines as you require... even 1st line if you need an emergency filler)
  3. Naslund would score 60 goals with Forsberg....
  4. Cooke's good for 15+ and can agitate as well ... for no extra cost
Yeah you forget to mention one thing. Naslund adds another 6M plus Cookes 1.5 not to mention Flyers lose 2nd round pick. All for what? So Naslund can play with Forsberg for 40 games?

Gagne could be signed for 4.5 and he is 26 and scored 47 goals last season. He may not score them again while Forsberg is on IR but hey I do not want 6M for another 2 years. Cap flexibility means everything now days and Flyers do not have it.
Overall, I think Naslund is a better scorer but... did he score 47 goals at 26? Big fat no to this offer.


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07-05-2006, 03:40 PM
  #88
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While I think Gagne is good, I also think he's the most overrated player in the game. Guys talk about him like he's a franchise winger, when last year he was a merely a fire hydrant off of Forsie. Offer him $4mill and that should work.

Don't freak now, I think he's a good solid scorer, but he's not a superstar..not even close.

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07-05-2006, 03:42 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by bletchley View Post
While I think Gagne is good, I also think he's the most overrated player in the game. Guys talk about him like he's a franchise winger, when last year he was a merely a fire hydrant off of Forsie. Offer him $4mill and that should work.

Don't freak now, I think he's a good solid scorer, but he's not a superstar..not even close.
his real value is in his defensive play against other players... that's why i'm willing to go higher. too much is made of his offensive game. he's a shooter with speed, so he creates some good chances off of rushes, but he's not a player that is going to go out there and create his own goals with any regularity.

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07-05-2006, 04:24 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
his real value is in his defensive play against other players... that's why i'm willing to go higher. too much is made of his offensive game. he's a shooter with speed, so he creates some good chances off of rushes, but he's not a player that is going to go out there and create his own goals with any regularity.
Agreed. As I have responded to others 100 times, he needs a good playmaker whether it be Forsberg or someone else. To say he did everything because of Forsberg is ridiculous IMO. His defensive play is arguable the best in the league at his position, not to mention he is going to pop in 40 goals.

I think $4.5 to $5 is reasonable based on what some other players are getting. Arnott, Tanguay, Cole etc.

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07-05-2006, 04:29 PM
  #91
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The contrast in opinions on Gagne's skill level and value is pretty vast on these boards. It's quite interesting actually.

Here's how I see it:
1. There's no way Gagne asked for less than 4.5 million
2. There's no way he should accept less than 4.5 million
3. Gagne can still score without Forsberg; not as much, but he can. And he's just entering his prime now.
4. Forsberg aside, he's our best player. To Clarke: Pay up, get it done. 5-5.5 million is not out of the question.

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07-05-2006, 04:30 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BrindA17 View Post
The contrast in opinions on Gagne's skill level and value is pretty vast on these boards. It's quite interesting actually.

Here's how I see it:
1. There's no way Gagne asked for less than 4.5 million
2. There's no way he should accept less than 4.5 million
3. Gagne can still score without Forsberg; not as much, but he can. And he's just entering his prime now.
4. Forsberg aside, he's our best player. To Clarke: Pay up, get it done. 5-5.5 million is not out of the question.
5.5 million is overpayment in my opinion.

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07-05-2006, 04:42 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
5.5 million is overpayment in my opinion.
Wouldn't it suck to see STL throw an offer of 5.5m for him?


Last edited by GKJ: 07-05-2006 at 06:38 PM. Reason: filter
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07-05-2006, 05:02 PM
  #94
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St. Louis can have him if they offer him anything close to that amount. We'll take the high draft picks.


Last edited by GKJ: 07-05-2006 at 06:38 PM.
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07-05-2006, 05:45 PM
  #95
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Wouldn't it be kinda shi-ty to see STL throw an offer of 5.5m for him?
I'd dance in the streets.

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07-05-2006, 05:54 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He is NOT an accurate shooter... in the slightest. The problem is that people act as if, and expect, him to be some kind of deadly sniper. He isn't. He's a sub 15% shooter... he has great wheels, plays extremely good defense, and has a quick trigger finger (very much in evidence this year). As a pure scorer he's not even remotely close to 4.5 Million player.
You don't have to have a laser for a shot to have a high shooting percentage. I'm sure there are players who get most of their goals from tap-ins or garbage plays, yet have a higher shooting percentage than Gagne. What that number tells me is that he doesn't get many great chances, other than the ones that Forsberg puts on the tape of his stick. When Forsberg wasn't in the lineup, most of the chances Gagne had were unsuccessful, low-percentage stuff.

Quote:
As a complete two-way player, he is. His overall skill-set is uncommon at this level, which makes him a very valuable player... people expect too much from on the offensive side of the game, which is what it is. He's not a 6 Million dollar player... however, 4-4.5 Million on a 4-5 year deal is fair
I could live with $4 million for Gagne, but not much more.

Quote:
The concept of "clutch" is much overplayed... If it exists at all, and numbers people will argue that it doesn't, it's a very small thing in comparison to normal results. Players are what they are... generally they don't play above what they are. Is Primeau suddenly some clutch offensive performer because he went off in one playoff season (we can ask this of Pisani as well...)? No.
It depends on what you define as "clutch." I would consider post-season scoring in the realm of clutch, and I would also consider 3rd period, OT, and game winners as "clutch" goals. Whether or not it has anything to do with "stepping up," or the player just happened score in those situations is irrelevant to me. Some players have a tendency to score in those situations, while others don't. I'd prefer players who do.

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07-05-2006, 06:04 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Brad View Post
You don't have to have a laser for a shot to have a high shooting percentage. I'm sure there are players who get most of their goals from tap-ins or garbage plays, yet have a higher shooting percentage than Gagne. What that number tells me is that he doesn't get many great chances, other than the ones that Forsberg puts on the tape of his stick. When Forsberg wasn't in the lineup, most of the chances Gagne had were unsuccessful, low-percentage stuff.
Gagne chest-snipes quite a bit... that's why he has a low shooting %, not because he's incapable of creating any good chances. he creates plenty of good shooting opportunities with his speed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
It depends on what you define as "clutch." I would consider post-season scoring in the realm of clutch, and I would also consider 3rd period, OT, and game winners as "clutch" goals. Whether or not it has anything to do with "stepping up," or the player just happened score in those situations is irrelevant to me. Some players have a tendency to score in those situations, while others don't. I'd prefer players who do.
that's just it... you think players do. however, our brains lie to us. almost all players do not significantly depart from their statistical norm of performance over the long haul. players simply have memorable playoff runs (primeau... pisani...), or memorable goals that place them at the front of what you remember.

there are players that are "better" in those situations... but you are also talking about small sample sizes... and many, if not most, of those players will return to their mean performance over time.

doesn't depend on how you define clutch... players play as well as they play. very few of them deviate from that performance in different situations.

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07-05-2006, 06:29 PM
  #98
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that's just it... you think players do. however, our brains lie to us. almost all players do not significantly depart from their statistical norm of performance over the long haul. players simply have memorable playoff runs (primeau... pisani...), or memorable goals that place them at the front of what you remember.

there are players that are "better" in those situations... but you are also talking about small sample sizes... and many, if not most, of those players will return to their mean performance over time.

doesn't depend on how you define clutch... players play as well as they play. very few of them deviate from that performance in different situations.
This is simply not true. There are most definitely players who perform better, by a noticeable margin, in the situations that I mentioned. A season, a playoff run, a career. Doesn't matter. As long as they do it. You may write off Pisani, but the fact remains that he had five game winnings goals in one post-season run. That's huge. Maybe he never duplicates that again, but at least he's done it once. He's performed his best, in the post-season, when his team needed it, and directly lead to victories for the Oilers. Gagne has really never done that, and I doubt he will. Gagne isn't the type of player who makes you stop and think "he'll take the Flyers on his back and lead them through the playoffs." And perhaps that would be an unfair though for a player like Gagne in the first place. But it really just goes to show that he's not a "great" player, and I don't think he ever will be.

And besides that, there are players who have a tendancy to play better than normal in those situations, and they've done it repeatedly. I could dig up a whole list of players who have made reputations for playing good when it matters. They step up. It's more than just scoring, too. Physical play, defense, creating oppurtunities for their team, etc. Some players improve this in the post-season, while some don't. I don't even think that I should have to explain this, really.

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07-05-2006, 06:47 PM
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Facts.... Straight

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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Yeah you forget to mention one thing. Naslund adds another 6M plus Cookes 1.5 not to mention Flyers lose 2nd round pick. All for what? So Naslund can play with Forsberg for 40 games?

Gagne could be signed for 4.5 and he is 26 and scored 47 goals last season. He may not score them again while Forsberg is on IR but hey I do not want 6M for another 2 years. Cap flexibility means everything now days and Flyers do not have it.
Overall, I think Naslund is a better scorer but... did he score 47 goals at 26? Big fat no to this offer.
Naslund scored 36-41 goals (in 25-27 yrs age) playing with Andrew Cassells as his C - I don't think we should take this comparison any further.... as it will only show poorly for Philly.
  1. Forsberg is one of maybe 3 Centres that you can bank on 40+G from his wingers without a full season.
  2. If you want that asset to stick around... you might like to have his best friend on his team for a contract extension... etc..... otherwise, he might end up in Vancouver next year anyways. (Swede friendly)
  3. Gagne isn't a Naslund and Naslund isn't a Gagne - but you're getting a pure goal scorer that has been consistent and tough for a scorer (not hitting wise, but playing thru pain)
  4. And as some are considering paying him 5-5.5M .... I think the .5-1M extra + the intangibles would be worth it for Bobby's negotiations for Forsberg.
  5. Cooke can play either wing... is gritty and a pest... at only 1.5M for his versatile skills (scores big goals and can play on the top-3 lines when called upon)

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07-05-2006, 06:55 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Brad View Post
This is simply not true. There are most definitely players who perform better, by a noticeable margin, in the situations that I mentioned. A season, a playoff run, a career. Doesn't matter. As long as they do it. You may write off Pisani, but the fact remains that he had five game winnings goals in one post-season run. That's huge. Maybe he never duplicates that again, but at least he's done it once. He's performed his best, in the post-season, when his team needed it, and directly lead to victories for the Oilers. Gagne has really never done that, and I doubt he will. Gagne isn't the type of player who makes you stop and think "he'll take the Flyers on his back and lead them through the playoffs." And perhaps that would be an unfair though for a player like Gagne in the first place. But it really just goes to show that he's not a "great" player, and I don't think he ever will be.

And besides that, there are players who have a tendancy to play better than normal in those situations, and they've done it repeatedly. I could dig up a whole list of players who have made reputations for playing good when it matters. They step up. It's more than just scoring, too. Physical play, defense, creating oppurtunities for their team, etc. Some players improve this in the post-season, while some don't. I don't even think that I should have to explain this, really.

every statistical breakdown you can do proves this false to a large extent... there is tons of research into it in baseball particularly since they have the wealth of statistics to use. the aspect of clutch is mostly a psychological one: "how do you deal with pressure, etc.?" so it is one that translates across sports.

i personally DO believe that there is some factor of clutch in players... much to the chagrine of most people that have looked at the numbers. however, it is negligible in most cases.

go dig into those players... the rebuttal isn't that they didn't make good plays. the rebuttal is that on the whole the wealth of those plays are just part of the larger sample and reflect the way that player plays. the make just as many plays in "regular" situations as they make in "clutch" situations... they blow just as many plays in "regular" situations as they blow in "clutch" situations.

in truth, i wish this wasn't true... because i enjoy the drama that clutch brings to the table. however, what we percieve as a reality in this case is largely not the case when you actually take all of the situations into account. an EXTREMELY small sample group will display marginal improvement in clutch situations. however, even that is very unreliable given the small sample size nature of "clutch."

Pisani had a GREAT playoff run... i don't deny that... and he's done it ONCE. Primeau had largely struggled in the playoffs prior to his last run... that should not dictate the contract that a player receives, especially given the nature of the salary cap. If a player has performed to their average, which Gagne has for the most part in the playoffs (his production this year considerably skewed his ppg), then that isn't something you should get on him about... because almost EVERY player performs the same in the "clutch" as he does in the "normal."

stats prove this...

Chris Drury, considered a "clutch" playoff performer... .72 ppg in the regular season... .70 ppg in the playoffs. He's performed the same throughout, just so happens some of those goals have come at the "right" moment... and he becomes clutch. No better, no worse... that's reality.

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